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No war with Japan?

Bodi

Bodi

Just waiting for my set...
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What would have/ could have happened had Japan not attacked the USA?
 
Bodhisattva said:
What would have/ could have happened had Japan not attacked the USA?
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And instead exclusively attacked the British and its Commonwealth and the Dutch?

It would have left the Philippines in American possession, so it would have been problematic for the Japanese no doubt.
 
The more amazing thing, and mistake, after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was the subsequent declaration of war by the Nazis on the US.

That was a huge mistake, one among many it seems.
 
BitterPill said:
The more amazing thing, and mistake, after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was the subsequent declaration of war by the Nazis on the US.

That was a huge mistake, one among many it seems.
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Yes definitely. Up until that point they were the big man on campus during the war. Until the US got into the fray, not to mention bringing several friends along the way, they had nearly all the power.

Hitler would of had a better time keeping his attention centered on his own continent.
 
Unless you have a time machine you can't rewrite history.The USA defeated Japan in WWII.

Live with it.
 
Actually the US was not Japan's primary target during WW2.

In the 1920's and 30's the Japanese army and navy were in competition to see who got the most resources. The imperial army won over the military heads at first. Their plan was to occupy large areas of China for food and Russia for oil. They more or less got huge territories in China, but they ran into massive opposition in Russia.

At first the imperial army managed to win a few engagements against the Soviets, until a young general named Georgy Zhukhov fought against them in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Khalkhin_Gol and the imperial army was soundly defeated. Zhukhov would later prove instrumental against the Germans later on.

After the army's defeat, the navy became top dogs in Japan, and they decided to invade the Dutch East Indies for their oil, and it set the stage for conflict against the US.
 
Bodhisattva said:
What would have/ could have happened had Japan not attacked the USA?
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Germany would not have declared war on the USA and may well have defeated the USSR. Thus enabling the Euro currency and the EU to be created rather sooner.
 
shrubnose said:
Unless you have a time machine you can't rewrite history.The USA defeated Japan in WWII.

Live with it.
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Nobody said the USA didn't and pretty sure we are living with it...
 
PoS said:
Actually the US was not Japan's primary target during WW2.

In the 1920's and 30's the Japanese army and navy were in competition to see who got the most resources. The imperial army won over the military heads at first. Their plan was to occupy large areas of China for food and Russia for oil. They more or less got huge territories in China, but they ran into massive opposition in Russia.

At first the imperial army managed to win a few engagements against the Soviets, until a young general named Georgy Zhukhov fought against them in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Khalkhin_Gol and the imperial army was soundly defeated. Zhukhov would later prove instrumental against the Germans later on.

After the army's defeat, the navy became top dogs in Japan, and they decided to invade the Dutch East Indies for their oil, and it set the stage for conflict against the US.
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Japan wanted to knock the USA out of a war with a stunning sucker punch... one thing often overlooked waz that they meant to declare war prior to the attack but communicarion errors meant the Declaration came about 30 minutes after the attack was already started.
 
shrubnose said:
Right now Japan is a U.S. ally.
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Irrelevant to your point. You said live with the US victory. We are.

Was there an actual point to your statement?
 
Bodhisattva said:
Japan wanted to knock the USA out of a war with a stunning sucker punch... one thing often overlooked waz that they meant to declare war prior to the attack but communicarion errors meant the Declaration came about 30 minutes after the attack was already started.
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I will expand on what PoS said already.

The US was not a major enemy in the minds of Japan. In their minds, the attack on Pearl Harbor would have helped drive them to the peace table to end the war. They did not want or care much about any of the US possessions in the Pacific. Not Hawaii, not Midway, not Wake or Guam, not even the Philippines.

However, they absolutely had to knock the Philippines out before they moved South against the Dutch East Indies (Indonesia), Borneo, New Guinea, Sumatra, and other SW Pacific territories. There were Dutch and UK territories there, and the US was an ally of both. There was absolutely no way they could go after those territories for their oil and rubber, and leaving a large military force sitting right across their supply lines.

p04-05(map).jpg


If they did not attack first, then there was a real danger of the US joining in while their forces were extended and cutting them off from home. One of the first rules of planning a military campaign is to never leave an enemy or potential enemy sitting across your supply lines.
 
Bodhisattva said:
What would have/ could have happened had Japan not attacked the USA?
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If they kept their promise/agreement with Germany, they should have attacked the USSR from the east while Germany was attacking the USSR from the west.

WWII might have been a whole different ballgame if that happened.

Since they didn't I always thought is was fascinating that Hitler then decided to honor HIS agreement with Japan to declare war on the US after Pearl Harbor.

BTW the ONLY country Hitler declared war on was the US.
 
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SenorXm/Sirius said:
If they kept their promise/agreement with Germany, they should have attacked the USSR from the east while Germany was attacking the USSR from the west.

WWII might have been a whole different ballgame if that happened.

Since they didn't I always thought is was fascinating that Hitler then decided to honor HIS agreement with Japan to declare war on the US after Pearl Harbor.

BTW the ONLY country Hitler declared war on was the US.
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Nope.

The Tripartite Pact only obligated one of the 3 pact members of getting involved if one of the other nations in the agreement is attacked.

Germany was the aggressor nation, so Japan had no obligation to declare war against the Soviet Union.

Hitler only declared war against the US, because he actually thought he was safe. With the US busy fighting against Japan, he thought that the US would be to busy to bother itself with Germany, and that it would allow his submarines to begin unrestricted warfare against the ships supplying England with little repercussion.
 
Oozlefinch said:
Nope.

The Tripartite Pact only obligated one of the 3 pact members of getting involved if one of the other nations in the agreement is attacked.

Germany was the aggressor nation, so Japan had no obligation to declare war against the Soviet Union.

Hitler only declared war against the US, because he actually thought he was safe. With the US busy fighting against Japan, he thought that the US would be to busy to bother itself with Germany, and that it would allow his submarines to begin unrestricted warfare against the ships supplying England with little repercussion.
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Yes I've read that theory many times. But it has holes in it.

Hitler did everything he could to keep the US OUT of the war before Pearl. He did NOT want to get into a 2 front war, and he KNEW if the US came into the war Britain would never surrender. Uboats or no Uboats Churchill made it very clear with the US in the war Britain was NOT going to surrender.

So him declaring war on the US assured that A) Germany would fight a 2 front war and B) Britain wouldn't get out of the war.

Of all the mistakes Hitler made, declaring war on the US may have been his biggest.
 
SenorXm/Sirius said:
He did NOT want to get into a 2 front war, and he KNEW if the US came into the war Britain would never surrender. Uboats or no Uboats Churchill made it very clear with the US in the war Britain was NOT going to surrender.
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He was in a 2 front war from the moment he invaded the Soviet Union.

And the UK would never have surrendered. The UK was more than just England. And even if Germany had somehow invaded England and won, there was already a plan in place to relocate the Government to Canada.

Although Churchill would have never have left. He had already stated that he would die in England rather than retreat.
 
SenorXm/Sirius said:
If they kept their promise/agreement with Germany, they should have attacked the USSR from the east while Germany was attacking the USSR from the west.

WWII might have been a whole different ballgame if that happened.

Since they didn't I always thought is was fascinating that Hitler then decided to honor HIS agreement with Japan to declare war on the US after Pearl Harbor.

BTW the ONLY country Hitler declared war on was the US.
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The battle of Khlakin Ghol was a watershed event in world history. The Japanese had planned to link up with the Germans but after they were defeated, they became terrified of the Soviets and thats why they went southwards towards the Dutch East Indies for their resources instead.

But imo, even if the Japanese fought with Germany against the USSR the Axis would have still been eventually defeated. The Soviets just had too many men and tanks to ever be conquered by anyone.
 
PoS said:
But imo, even if the Japanese fought with Germany against the USSR the Axis would have still been eventually defeated. The Soviets just had too many men and tanks to ever be conquered by anyone.
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In this I agree.

And even more importantly, the Soviet Union was simply to big for an invasion by Japan to be more than a minor nuisance. They would have had to cross over half of the Soviet Union before they reached any areas of real importance to the Soviets. And that would not have been possible, they simply did not have the manpower, being so busy in the Pacific War.

Japan declaring war against the Soviet Union would have ultimately been about as important as the Duchy of Grand Fenwick declaring war against the United States. But without the Quadium Bomb.
 
Jesse Booth said:
Dear lord, Shrubnose,
it's a what-if question about alternative history!
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 Lighten up a little and let the history nerds have fun, would ya?
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There is no 'alternative history' without a time machine'.There's only time-wasting bull-honkey that gets nothing done.

Wake up and smell the coffee.

:lol:
 
shrubnose said:
There is no 'alternative history' without a time machine'.There's only time-wasting bull-honkey that gets nothing done.

Wake up and smell the coffee.

:lol:
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Shrubnose, why are you here? Every second you spend telling people that hypothetical questions are time-wasting bullhonkey is precious time that you will never get back, an inexcusable expenditure of your most vital and irreplaceable resource. Leave us to our miserable fates as wastrels and slackers, and pursue your passion for efficiency and productivity. I beg you, for your own sake. Go. Go! GO, MY MAN! SEIZE THE DAY!
 
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