No, Frozen Wind Turbines Did Not Cause the Texas Blackouts

[Kushinator]

CA is 22.2 cents per kwh, TX is 12.2 per kwh on average.

Electricity Rates by State | March 2024 | ChooseEnergy.com®

Discover which state has the highest and lowest kWh costs throughout the country with our March 2024 Electricity Rates Report.

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82% isn't 300%

 

[Clownonthewing]

Well, I’m not sure how that’s a “false dichotomy” when it’s neither “false” nor a “dichotomy”.

But, hey I’m not getting paid for this so ignore it if you wish.

You are clearly implying that further investment in renewables is not wise since fossil fuel infrastructure will be more reliable.

The false dichotomy is that to invest in renewables is to lose the reliability of fossil fuels.

Why do I have to explain your arguments to you?

 

[diz]

You are clearly implying that further investment in renewables is not wise since fossil fuel infrastructure will be more reliable.

The false dichotomy is that to invest in renewables is to lose the reliability of fossil fuels.

Why do I have to explain your arguments to you?

No, I am stating that further investment in intermittent renewables makes the system more dependent on its dispatchable generation.

I’m not aware of anyone with any sort of clue who would disagree with this statement.

 

[jonny5]

The power failed because a significant portion of natural gas plants went offline. Wind generation was already largely offline by design and not meant to sholder the load of a winter storm.

A full failure of wind turbines would not have knocked the power out.

The power failed becasue NG AND Windmills went offline.

 

[diz]

82% isn't 300%

Your math skills are impressive. Now do how much those 10 cents per kwh cost CA residents per year.

I’ll sport you that their annual electricity usage is 259.5 TWh.

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2015/05/f22/CA-Energy%20Sector%20Risk%20Profile.pdf

 

[AncientGeek]

No, I am stating that further investment in intermittent renewables makes the system more dependent on its dispatchable generation.

I’m not aware of anyone with any sort of clue who would disagree with this statement.

From my electric co-op (OMG communism) blog "Connexus is not Texas":

Reliability with the addition of renewables

Renewable energy is actually helping us weather this latest Polar Vortex in Minnesota.

• Minnesota’s renewable energy is reliable. We’ve learned how to operate wind turbines in severe weather.
• Connexus’ solar arrays and battery storage have performed well during the past few weeks. In fact, they have been very productive.
• The power grid will increasingly be served by wind and solar but the change-over in generation is being carefully and methodically managed. Connexus, GRE, and MISO North are all working together to make sure that our members and the entire region have sufficient energy, capacity, and transmission.

 

[AncientGeek]

The power failed becasue NG AND Windmills went offline.

Ahead of the storms, the Electric Reliability Council of Texas, which manages around 90% of the state’s electric load, underestimated how much power it would need. Because Texas is the only state that operates an independent electric grid, there was no emergency capacity. Supply could not keep up with demand, leading the Public Utility Commission of Texas, which regulates Texas utility rates, to raise energy prices in an emergency meeting Monday.

 

[Kushinator]

Your math skills are impressive.

Arithmetic is the term you're seeking.

 

[diz]

Arithmetic is the term you're seeking.

OK, I’ll also give you that 1 TWh = 1 billion KWh.

So, how much does that extra ten cents per KWh cost californians every year?

 

[Kushinator]

OK, I’ll also give you that 1 TWh = 1 billion KWh.

So, how much does that extra ten cents per KWh cost californians every year?

You're more than welcome to make your point.

 

[diz]

You're more than welcome to make your point.

I thought I could count on you to do one of your math demonstrations. I guess this one’s too complicated?

 

[MTAtech]

Don't expect citation....

Electric Rates by State (June 2021) – Electric Choice

Average electricity rates for each state are displayed in map and table form. Rates are presented in cents per kilowatt hour (kWh).

www.electricchoice.com

 

[dcsports]

The electric rates are not 3x more in California than Texas.

Depends on the source.... but yes. 2-3 X the rate.

 

[Kushinator]

I thought I could count on you to do one of your math demonstrations. I guess this one’s too complicated?

As expected, you don't have a point.

 

[AncientGeek]

Depends on the source.... but yes. 2-3 X the rate.

On the same day, the wholesale price of electricity spiked more than 10,000%, leaving many Texans with dizzying bills in the wake of the storms — ranging from four digits to one for more than $17,000.
Please see 'SKY-HIGH ENERGY BILLS ADD TO MISERY IN TEXAS' at http://e.startribune.com/Olive/ODN/...21/02/22&entity=Ar00104&sk=6DB1A927&mode=text

 

[jonny5]

Ahead of the storms, the Electric Reliability Council of Texas, which manages around 90% of the state’s electric load, underestimated how much power it would need. Because Texas is the only state that operates an independent electric grid, there was no emergency capacity. Supply could not keep up with demand, leading the Public Utility Commission of Texas, which regulates Texas utility rates, to raise energy prices in an emergency meeting Monday.

Right, so when the windmills froze, in addition to other causes, they had to do blackouts.

 

[AncientGeek]

Right, so when the windmills froze, in addition to other causes, they had to do blackouts.

Or, as my brother in Texas put it:
All the republican leadership is putting the blame on the grid operator when the real problem are the fossil fuel producers and power generators. The natural gas wells froze solid and they couldn’t pump the gas and the Natural gas power plants shut down. Also coal and nuclear plants had instrumentation failures that cause them to shut down. But all you hear about are the frozen wind turbines that only produce 10% of our power. They of course froze up because they bought the wrong kind and aren’t winterized. But republicans are blaming the Green New Deal for our problems, ignoring that places like Finland use Wind Power that works just fine.

 

[Vern]

Depends on the source.... but yes. 2-3 X the rate.

oooo DC, I see you're still clinging to conservative narratives after they been debunked. remember this one. Ercot said:

Wind shutdowns accounted for 3.6 to 4.5 gigawatts -- or less than 13% -- of the 30 to 35 gigawatts of total outages, according to Woodfin.

You said:
So yes, wind accounted for about 1/3 of the offline capacity (post 51).
Again, wind wasn't the whole issue, but the 16% of wind we do have accounted for 30% of the loss. (post94)
Wind/renewables are 16% of the capacity and 1/3 of the loss (post 116)
1/6 of the system accounted for 1/3 of the loss. (post 128)
The numbers stated have been 16 mw Wind/renewables, 30 thermal. That's about 1/3. (post195)
No one is saying wind was the biggest problem in this disaster. (post 203, oops, this is the other falsehood you repeated over and over).
Yes, by pure amount, thermal was the biggest contributor (30 vs 16).( post 214)
That's incorrect. 16 GW of the loss. (post 220)
Nope. The majority of the supply shortage (2/3) came from thermal sources. Not the "vast majority". Wind had a disproportionate failure. (post 225)
They said 16 GW was knocked offline by the storm. If you don't believe that - blame ERCOT ( post 242)
Wind (and solar), however, was a significant contributor (1/3) to the loss in power, (post 319)
Again.... 16GW lost from solar and 30 from thermal (post 331)

just so you know, repeating nonsense over and over is how cults work.

 

[jonny5]

Or, as my brother in Texas put it:
All the republican leadership is putting the blame on the grid operator when the real problem are the fossil fuel producers and power generators. The natural gas wells froze solid and they couldn’t pump the gas and the Natural gas power plants shut down. Also coal and nuclear plants had instrumentation failures that cause them to shut down. But all you hear about are the frozen wind turbines that only produce 10% of our power. They of course froze up because they bought the wrong kind and aren’t winterized. But republicans are blaming the Green New Deal for our problems, ignoring that places like Finland use Wind Power that works just fine.

Yes, thats the typical talking points. But the truth is wind turbines did cause the blackouts, in addition to other things. And it was fossil fuels which kept everyone else up as you can see in various charts where the base load, cheap reliable NG took over generation until the grid hit capacity.

Extreme winter weather is disrupting energy supply and demand, particularly in Texas - Today in Energy - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

Had they invested the money wasted on wind and instead invested in in traditional cost effective sources, in addition to grid improvements and winterizing, things would be differnt.

 

[diz]

As expected, you don't have a point.

Ok, if you can’t do the math I’ll help you out.

If Californians paid the same rate as Texans for their electricity they’d spend about $26 billion less on electricity every year.

So, the point is it’s a lot of money.

I suspect California hasn’t spent much on winterizing their generation assets either, frankly. Or from preventing them from burning down the state. Makes you wonder what they’re getting for that $25 billion a year.

Oh yeah, regulation, right?

 

[diz]

Or, as my brother in Texas put it:
All the republican leadership is putting the blame on the grid operator when the real problem are the fossil fuel producers and power generators. The natural gas wells froze solid and they couldn’t pump the gas and the Natural gas power plants shut down. Also coal and nuclear plants had instrumentation failures that cause them to shut down. But all you hear about are the frozen wind turbines that only produce 10% of our power. They of course froze up because they bought the wrong kind and aren’t winterized. But republicans are blaming the Green New Deal for our problems, ignoring that places like Finland use Wind Power that works just fine.

Fault? If I’m a natural gas well operator a freeze up is not the end of the world. Goes away in a couple days and I’m back in business. If you assumed my well wasn't going to freeze up that’s on you. If you want to pay me some money to enter into a contract to have it not freeze up we can have a talk, but until you do you have no basis to fault me with anything when it does.

 

[AncientGeek]

Yes, thats the typical talking points. But the truth is wind turbines did cause the blackouts, in addition to other things. And it was fossil fuels which kept everyone else up as you can see in various charts where the base load, cheap reliable NG took over generation until the grid hit capacity.

Extreme winter weather is disrupting energy supply and demand, particularly in Texas - Today in Energy - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

Had they invested the money wasted on wind and instead invested in in traditional cost effective sources, in addition to grid improvements and winterizing, things would be differnt.

Yup, no money wasted on extra emergency capacity. No money invested in proper wind turbines. No money wasted on weather proofing any of their capacity. The windmills done it - just like they cause cancer.

From my electric co-op (OMG communism) blog "Connexus is not Texas":

Reliability with the addition of renewables

Renewable energy is actually helping us weather this latest Polar Vortex in Minnesota.

• Minnesota’s renewable energy is reliable. We’ve learned how to operate wind turbines in severe weather.
• Connexus’ solar arrays and battery storage have performed well during the past few weeks. In fact, they have been very productive.
• The power grid will increasingly be served by wind and solar but the change-over in generation is being carefully and methodically managed. Connexus, GRE, and MISO North are all working together to make sure that our members and the entire region have sufficient energy, capacity, and transmission.

 

[TomFitz]

No, I am stating that further investment in intermittent renewables makes the system more dependent on its dispatchable generation.

I’m not aware of anyone with any sort of clue who would disagree with this statement.

That is an outdated notion that the progress denial crowd still clings to.

Battery storage erases this issue.

It is not theoretical. It is proven in the field.

And it has lowered electricity costs, shaved demand charges, and generated rich returns to its investors. So much so that the first plant was expanded within 90 days of entering service.

 

[TomFitz]

Fault? If I’m a natural gas well operator a freeze up is not the end of the world. Goes away in a couple days and I’m back in business. If you assumed my well wasn't going to freeze up that’s on you. If you want to pay me some money to enter into a contract to have it not freeze up we can have a talk, but until you do you have no basis to fault me with anything when it does.

That assumes that nothing breaks when it thaws.

Which is not what happens.

 

[dcsports]

oooo DC, I see you're still clinging to conservative narratives after they been debunked. remember this one. Ercot said:

[repeated nonsense over and over}

just so you know, repeating nonsense over and over is how cults work.

So... given the discussion was California vs. Texas cost of electricity, and not windmills.....

In any case, you've made it abundantly clear that you aren't interested in a reasonable, fact based, discussion. I'm not interested in lobbing personal attacks back and forth, or perpetually correcting your statements. So go talk to someone else.