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No Abortion even for Rape

What an absurd message since you ratify my statement that I do not know how a woman would act facing such a situation. In short, your message is an extreme self contradiction.

My statement is right on point. She states what she would do and instead of taking her word for it and treating with her respect you decide instead to tell her that she has no idea what she would do and that standing for something is easily when there is no reality to it.
 
My statement is right on point. She states what she would do and instead of taking her word for it and treating with her respect you decide instead to tell her that she has no idea what she would do and that standing for something is easily when there is no reality to it.

Why do I have to "take her word" in her declaration that in any adversity, pain or suffering, she will always be the perfect person of perfect behavior in such horrors? However, if on this particular topic she wants to declare she knows that of the future she would act - relative to the subject - purely omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent there is no forum rule against it.

As for her, my last word of it is I hope she is never tested of it. And I hope she is always able to do what she believes is right whatever that is or however tested. There isn't anything wrong with her believing she is that strong and committed.

My concern was not about her. Rather, it was about mere human women and girls, who may have or someday may regain consciousness days after an assault and severely physically multilated, crippled for life, medically fighting for her life and for which her only possible response to the physical pain is to try to scream thru it ... and in this when a doctor asks if she wants drugs to try to avoid possible HIV/AIDs, other STDs and a Morning After Pill to avoid pregnancy and she says "yes" - despite her belief that MAPs are wrong for her faith and because as a final safeguard of how they work 3 ways is as an aborficide abortion drug...

My concern?

It's not Serenity. More, it's men like you.

But still more than you, it's men like some of the other prolife men with such demeaning and in my opinion sadistic expressed views hatefully sneering at that 15 year old with "I would NEVER KILL MY OWN CHILD THE WAY YOU MURDERED YOUR OWN BABY! You are 100 times more a criminal than the man who assaulted you. You should go to prison for life." Prolife men have posted such statements hundreds of times - and worse.

In fact, anyone can be broken. The British Empire was built on the whip (Cat-O-Ninetails). Countless people confessed to heresy and witchcraft from torture by fire. Waterboarding works. Slaves on plantations outnumbered their owners but were instead submission. Anyone can be broken. It is only a question of how and how long it takes. When broken, a person is either totally paralyzed even physically in terror or will do absolutely anything told to do.

I do not want any female reading this - or for that matter any man - to decide a woman who did not do as she thought she would under assault then convinced she is then evil and inferior to Serenity's unshakable perfection. Assault victims struggle with enough haunts and self doubts. But more, for thetr to be an offset male opinion to that of you and of some of the raging messsages of some of the prolife men.
 
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Yes. Organized religion and ancient values definitely do affect law and culture now and often wrongly so. Organized religion is the driving force behind "prolife" and creates all slogans and logic of it.

For example, they will always use the word "conception" (religious term) rather than "fertilization" - the known medical and scientific term. So even if a prolifer swears he's not motivated by religion, he will chant "life begins at conception!" rather than "fertilization" because religion wrote his slogan to chant (and the reasoning for it.)

I guess that's why Planned Parenthood uses the term "product of conception." :roll:
 
Why do I have to "take her word" in her declaration that in any adversity, pain or suffering, she will always be the perfect person of perfect behavior in such horrors? However, if on this particular topic she wants to declare she knows that of the future she would act - relative to the subject - purely omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent there is no forum rule against it.

I don't care what someone says their convictions are it is not our place to tell them they are not strong or brave enough to carry through with it. If they say will not abort, then that is all there is to it, and none of us have a reason to doubt them or a reason to question them about it.
 
The context is if a girl is raped she has to marry the rapist. The rapist owes her father money as well.

Virginity being magic isn't relevant.

You need to learn a little Hebrew and do a more careful reading of this whole section of Deuteronomy.

Here is a site that discusses the actual use of words in this section: The Old Testament and Rape : Commentary on Deuteronomy 22:28-29

"A careful reading of both the passage itself, as well as its surrounding context, dispels such a notion. We quote the passage again, yet this time adding the surrounding context for further clarification:

'But if a man finds a betrothed young woman in the countryside, and the man forces (chazaq) her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. But you shall do nothing to the young woman; there is in the young woman no sin deserving of death, for just as when a man rises against his neighbor and kills him, even so is this matter. For he found her in the countryside, and the betrothed young woman CRIED OUT, but there was no one to save her.
If a man finds a young woman who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and THEY ARE found out, then the man who lay with her shall give to the young woman's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife because he has humbled her; he shall not be permitted to divorce her all his days.' Deuteronomy 22:25-29 NKJV"

~~
This commentator is pointing out that, in the first part, which discusses a betrothed girl, the word involved, chazaq, makes it clear that this girl is raped. But in the second part, which discusses a girl not betrothed, the word involved is not the same and the grammar of the sentence implies that the girl consented.

The problem is this. If we go back further, we find the section to discuss betrothed girls who consent to sex with someone other than the betrothed (indicated by not screaming for help in a city) and betrothed girls who are raped (indicated by screaming and not being heard in the countryside), it only discusses unbetrothed girls who appear to consent to sex, and does not discuss unbetrothed girls who are raped.

This is so typical of the Mosaic code and most other ancient legal codes. Those ancient people did not write down legal codes suiting our demand for generalized, comprehensive, and systematic legislation. Note the details showing how they think in a way entangling specific details unnecessary and insufficient for the basic idea (e.g., city versus countryside) rather than necessary and sufficient emphases (the girl resisted or did not resist, was able to resist or was physically unable to resist, etc.). Note omissions showing how unsystematic and uncomprehensive they are - what about unbetrothed girls who are raped?

This is why the Hebrew/Jewish oral law, the Mishnah, was later redacted in 220CE, because it covered legal cases in which the law was interpreted and applied by judges, who could read the original Hebrew.

Even in the case of the unbetrothed girl who appears to consent, the passage goes on to specify that the man has to compensate her father with a bride-price, and that he can never divorce her. The tenor of the law is to force the man to compensate, not to punish the girl - in the cultural context, her no longer being a virgin would mean that no respectable man would be willing to marry her, so she would lack support when her father died if no one married her.

But the rape victim in the earlier part is said to be innocent even though she would now not be a virgin. Since only the betrothed case is noted, the effect is that the man betrothed to her can't complain that she is not a virgin. We are left wondering what happens in the case of rape of the unbetrothed - we'd have to turn to the oral law.

Nothing here at all about a rape victim being forced to marry the man who raped her - how could there be, when in the one case of rape given, rape is a crime that reaps capital punishment?
 
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Isn't it kind of strange to say I want his money, but at the same time say I don't want him to ever see his child?

She can just commit suicide and thus solve the whole problem, though I'd go to Canada for an abortion and try to become a Canadian, as I would not want to continue to be a citizen of a country that used the law to force me to use my body and life to make a living symbol of the fact that I was raped and expected me to treat as an equal either that living symbol or any of the people who made such a law.
 
Ok this came up at work today and ive been thinking about it a lot.

FOr the few that actually think this way, never met any in real life, could you explain to me the logic behind it. And not just the initial logic, though i do want that to but the aftermath logic.

For example the woman is raped and now she will be forced to carry the ZEF to term. Even if there is risk to her life and the risk isnt 60% or more.
What happens if she does die cause of the pregnancy, would you support murder charges?


next example is, ok she lives, now she is responsible for the product of rape for 18 years if she doesnt give the baby up for adoption. Im sure the kid will trigger zero memories/reminders of the rape, especially if the kid looks nothign like her and looks just like the rapist

WHen the dad "FELONY RAPIST" gets out and he has served his time and paid his dues after probably 6 years does he get parental rights? I mean his times has been served, he paid his dues.
if yes, are you saying the first thing the rapist gets to have is the address of the woman he raped 6 years ago? im sure that makes her feel great!
if he gets custody is he allowed to come to the house to pick up and drop off his kid?
in many states they dont do anything about child support if a parent is in jail so what about the first 6 years of the kids life he just gets off scott free


theres sooooooooooo many questions, and mind you, im sure there are probably people out there that think the father forfeits his rights so some of my questions are moot but it woulds just lead me to having others.

anyway for the people that dont even support abortion for rape expalin why please, i want to know YOUR LOGIC and YOUR OPINION on it, mine dont matter.

while I don't agree with them, it makes perfect sense for someone who believes that abortion is murder. In fact, believing this and then making an exception for rape and incest isn't logical ... think about it ... if you believe it is murder, you'd be saying that if a woman is raped, she has the right to murder her child ...

Unfortunately for folks who believe this, most of the country does not agree with them ... 20% (recent Gallup Poll) believe abortion should be illegal in all circumstances ... the highest that has ever been since 1975 was 23% ...
 
Unfortunately for folks who believe this, most of the country does not agree with them ... 20% (recent Gallup Poll) believe abortion should be illegal in all circumstances ... the highest that has ever been since 1975 was 23% ...

Not accepting the rape exception does not mean not accepting any exceptions.
 
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Not accepting the rape exception does not mean not accepting any exceptions.

I know, but what does that have to do with what I posted? I was responding to the question posted.
 
I know, but what does that have to do with what I posted? I was responding to the question posted.

The gallup poll you referenced asked if you believe in exceptions and if you answer no that means all exceptions be that to save her life, deformity, if the fetus is dead, and every other situation. It's not surprising at all that the most extreme position is not widely supported.
 
The gallup poll you referenced asked if you believe in exceptions and if you answer no that means all exceptions be that to save her life, deformity, if the fetus is dead, and every other situation. It's not surprising at all that the most extreme position is not widely supported.

the question was whether it should be illegal with no exceptions. So, if you believed rape or incest should be exceptions, you'd pick illegal under most or even some circumstances, no?
 
I don't care what someone says their convictions are it is not our place to tell them they are not strong or brave enough to carry through with it. If they say will not abort, then that is all there is to it, and none of us have a reason to doubt them or a reason to question them about it.

Few have ever hesitated to "doubt" what I post about myself. But I won't go further on this about a particular member with you either.
 
The gallup poll you referenced asked if you believe in exceptions and if you answer no that means all exceptions be that to save her life, deformity, if the fetus is dead, and every other situation. It's not surprising at all that the most extreme position is not widely supported.


Here are the results from a poll last year, by a polling organization that tends to get more conservative results pretty consistency, which breaks down support more clearly:

From http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm:

CNN/ORC Poll. Aug. 22-23, 2012. N=1,055 adults nationwide. Margin of error ± 3.


"Now I am going to read some specific situations under which an abortion might be considered. For each one, please say whether you think abortion should be legal in that situation, or illegal. . . ."


The resulting percentages are in this order for each item: legal, illegal, depends, unsure

"When the woman's life is endangered": 88, 9, 1, 2
"When the woman's physical health is endangered": 83, 12, 2, 2

"When the pregnancy was caused by rape or incest": 83, 14, 1, 3

The results for the last item were also broken down by groups:

Democrats: 90. 9, 1, -
Independents: 81, 13, 1, 5
Republicans: 76, 22, 1, 1

In fact, I remember seeing one poll in which legal in cases of rape/incest/threat to the life of the woman and illegal in all cases were distinct choices, and as many as 16% of those polled said illegal in all cases. So let's say the range for illegal even if the life of the woman is threatened is 9-16%. That is an astonishingly high number who don't care even if the woman dies.
 
You need to learn a little Hebrew and do a more careful reading of this whole section of Deuteronomy.

Here is a site that discusses the actual use of words in this section: The Old Testament and Rape : Commentary on Deuteronomy 22:28-29

"A careful reading of both the passage itself, as well as its surrounding context, dispels such a notion. We quote the passage again, yet this time adding the surrounding context for further clarification:

'But if a man finds a betrothed young woman in the countryside, and the man forces (chazaq) her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. But you shall do nothing to the young woman; there is in the young woman no sin deserving of death, for just as when a man rises against his neighbor and kills him, even so is this matter. For he found her in the countryside, and the betrothed young woman CRIED OUT, but there was no one to save her.
If a man finds a young woman who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and THEY ARE found out, then the man who lay with her shall give to the young woman's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife because he has humbled her; he shall not be permitted to divorce her all his days.' Deuteronomy 22:25-29 NKJV"

~~
This commentator is pointing out that, in the first part, which discusses a betrothed girl, the word involved, chazaq, makes it clear that this girl is raped. But in the second part, which discusses a girl not betrothed, the word involved is not the same and the grammar of the sentence implies that the girl consented.

The problem is this. If we go back further, we find the section to discuss betrothed girls who consent to sex with someone other than the betrothed (indicated by not screaming for help in a city) and betrothed girls who are raped (indicated by screaming and not being heard in the countryside), it only discusses unbetrothed girls who appear to consent to sex, and does not discuss unbetrothed girls who are raped.

This is so typical of the Mosaic code and most other ancient legal codes. Those ancient people did not write down legal codes suiting our demand for generalized, comprehensive, and systematic legislation. Note the details showing how they think in a way entangling specific details unnecessary and insufficient for the basic idea (e.g., city versus countryside) rather than necessary and sufficient emphases (the girl resisted or did not resist, was able to resist or was physically unable to resist, etc.). Note omissions showing how unsystematic and uncomprehensive they are - what about unbetrothed girls who are raped?

This is why the Hebrew/Jewish oral law, the Mishnah, was later redacted in 220CE, because it covered legal cases in which the law was interpreted and applied by judges, who could read the original Hebrew.

Even in the case of the unbetrothed girl who appears to consent, the passage goes on to specify that the man has to compensate her father with a bride-price, and that he can never divorce her. The tenor of the law is to force the man to compensate, not to punish the girl - in the cultural context, her no longer being a virgin would mean that no respectable man would be willing to marry her, so she would lack support when her father died if no one married her.

But the rape victim in the earlier part is said to be innocent even though she would now not be a virgin. Since only the betrothed case is noted, the effect is that the man betrothed to her can't complain that she is not a virgin. We are left wondering what happens in the case of rape of the unbetrothed - we'd have to turn to the oral law.

Nothing here at all about a rape victim being forced to marry the man who raped her - how could there be, when in the one case of rape given, rape is a crime that reaps capital punishment?

It very clearly says he ows the father and she must marry the rapist. If it says something different in Hebrew God didn't preserve the word and God is useless.
 
1.)while I don't agree with them, it makes perfect sense for someone who believes that abortion is murder. In fact, believing this and then making an exception for rape and incest isn't logical ... think about it ... if you believe it is murder, you'd be saying that if a woman is raped, she has the right to murder her child ...

Unfortunately for folks who believe this, most of the country does not agree with them ... 20% (recent Gallup Poll) believe abortion should be illegal in all circumstances ... the highest that has ever been since 1975 was 23% ...

while im with you and dont agree with it i dont think its logical at all
to think its murder is illogical or even if you do to not allow it in special cases. We already allow killing in special cases, its not like thats a new concept. What youd be saying is if a women is raped shes allowed to protect herself from risk of death and her rights.

IMO the only way its logical is if you ignore that their are two lives involved and ignore the womans life and rights
 
It very clearly says he ows the father and she must marry the rapist. If it says something different in Hebrew God didn't preserve the word and God is useless.

I can't tell whether you are kidding or not, given the sorts of things that are sometimes actually said on these threads, but assuming you are not kidding, I have to be frank: the Biblical God did not speak English. In the OT, God spoke Hebrew, and in the NT, Christ spoke Koine Greek.
 
Here are the results from a poll last year, by a polling organization that tends to get more conservative results pretty consistency, which breaks down support more clearly:

From http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm:

CNN/ORC Poll. Aug. 22-23, 2012. N=1,055 adults nationwide. Margin of error ± 3.


"Now I am going to read some specific situations under which an abortion might be considered. For each one, please say whether you think abortion should be legal in that situation, or illegal. . . ."


The resulting percentages are in this order for each item: legal, illegal, depends, unsure

"When the woman's life is endangered": 88, 9, 1, 2
"When the woman's physical health is endangered": 83, 12, 2, 2

"When the pregnancy was caused by rape or incest": 83, 14, 1, 3

The results for the last item were also broken down by groups:

Democrats: 90. 9, 1, -
Independents: 81, 13, 1, 5
Republicans: 76, 22, 1, 1

In fact, I remember seeing one poll in which legal in cases of rape/incest/threat to the life of the woman and illegal in all cases were distinct choices, and as many as 16% of those polled said illegal in all cases. So let's say the range for illegal even if the life of the woman is threatened is 9-16%. That is an astonishingly high number who don't care even if the woman dies.

I cant imaginge what it takes to totally ignore the woman like that, to consider her so meaningless, i wonder how many of those people try to sell the lie that they are for legal and human rights and equality.
 
I can't tell whether you are kidding or not, given the sorts of things that are sometimes actually said on these threads, but assuming you are not kidding, I have to be frank: the Biblical God did not speak English. In the OT, God spoke Hebrew, and in the NT, Christ spoke Koine Greek.

Either the bible preserved or it was not.

If the English translation is not correct the bible was not preserved.
 
Either the bible preserved or it was not.

If the English translation is not correct the bible was not preserved.

There are an unbelievable number of English translations of the Bible. Take your pick of those which now exist or do a translation yourself. Or do what people who are actually interested do: compare translations or go online and compare the original and English versions with annotations if you don't know the original language.

FYI, Jewish children go to Hebrew school to learn Hebrew so they won't be illiterate in their religion. Back a number of decades ago, private schools at least required the study of classical Greek. The fact that there are so many "Christians" out there who have never even carefully analyzed the translations, let alone consulted the original Hebrew and Koine Greek, is the reason those people just believe what their religious leaders say the Bible says. They just spout whatever as if the Bible were written in their own contemporary English.
 
while im with you and dont agree with it i dont think its logical at all
to think its murder is illogical or even if you do to not allow it in special cases. We already allow killing in special cases, its not like thats a new concept. What youd be saying is if a women is raped shes allowed to protect herself from risk of death and her rights.

IMO the only way its logical is if you ignore that their are two lives involved and ignore the womans life and rights

I wasn't saying that thinking it is murder is logical ... what I was saying is if you believe it is murder, then it would follow that you wouldn't make exceptions for rape and incest -- although I guess one could argue from this perspective that an abortion would be a justified killing -- as in a just war or self defense, for example -- if it was to save the life of the mother ...
 
I wasn't saying that thinking it is murder is logical ... what I was saying is if you believe it is murder, then it would follow that you wouldn't make exceptions for rape and incest -- although I guess one could argue from this perspective that an abortion would be a justified killing -- as in a just war or self defense, for example -- if it was to save the life of the mother ...

sorry thats exactly what i was getting at, maybe i just worded it ****ty. We already make exceptions based on facts and logic in other areas of life/killing so making it black and white seems totally illogical to me
 
sorry thats exactly what i was getting at, maybe i just worded it ****ty. We already make exceptions based on facts and logic in other areas of life/killing so making it black and white seems totally illogical to me

we agree ... but in general you're alluding to the fundamental difference between cons and progressives in these culture wars ... cons see the world in black and white, progressives see a lot more gray ... I wish the world was as black and white as they seem to think it is, and which you are liable to believe if you believe you know exactly how a socially-constructed God feels about these issues ...
 
we agree ... but in general you're alluding to the fundamental difference between cons and progressives in these culture wars ... cons see the world in black and white, progressives see a lot more gray ... I wish the world was as black and white as they seem to think it is, and which you are liable to believe if you believe you know exactly how a socially-constructed God feels about these issues ...

on average i agree progressives are more black and white, i agree with that but not all "cons" are like that. I know many that are not.
 
on average i agree progressives are more black and white, i agree with that but not all "cons" are like that. I know many that are not.

did you mean cons instead of progressives? anyway, yes, I've known cons who don't fill the bill, but by and large, especially on issues like abortion, school prayer, gay rights, etc., cons take a more black and white perspective (religions tend to do the same) ...
 
1.)did you mean cons instead of progressives?
2.) anyway, yes, I've known cons who don't fill the bill, but by and large, especially on issues like abortion, school prayer, gay rights, etc., cons take a more black and white perspective (religions tend to do the same) ...

1.) yes i did, my mistake
2.) in media and cyber space i agree but in real life i dont see them as much. Now dont get me wrong there are plenty of them but i wouldnt call it most.

also framing it even tighter with the issues you brought up yes the majority of them do view those certain things has black and white abortion and gay rights

on a side note i still feel even those views have more to do with the game than reality, those are the hot topics and stereotypical issues that are supposed to identify a party, if those steretypical topics change id be willing to bet so does the hard core line of black and white
 
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