No Abortion even for Rape

[Serenity]

Talk and living by platitudes is easy when there is no reality to it. Sexual assault rages from date rape to extremely violent and harmful stranger assault, which can leave a woman disfigures and in serious medical crisis - and life and plans all shattered maybe permanently. I do not think you can really know what you'd actually do.

Considering i've been a critical care paramedic for over 7 years, i really don't need a lecture from you as to what effect violent assaults and medical crisis's can do to people joko, i am already well aware. I value life and know all to well how quickly it can be extinguished and i also am very confident of what i would do if i was placed in that situation. I would not abort the child. The end.

 

[Henrin]

Talk and living by platitudes is easy when there is no reality to it. Sexual assault rages from date rape to extremely violent and harmful stranger assault, which can leave a woman disfigures and in serious medical crisis - and life and plans all shattered maybe permanently. I do not think you can really know what you'd actually do.

Stop trying to demean someone for their position. You have no idea how they would act if they were faced with that situation and it would be wise for you to respect your ignorance on the subject. When someone says they will do something in a given situation show them some respect and consider their word as the truth and something they will carry through with when the times comes.

In short, shut the hell up, joko.

 

[nota bene]

Talk and living by platitudes is easy when there is no reality to it. Sexual assault rages from date rape to extremely violent and harmful stranger assault, which can leave a woman disfigures and in serious medical crisis - and life and plans all shattered maybe permanently. I do not think you can really know what you'd actually do.

I don’t think you see the irony in your own statement about talking in platitudes—hypotheticals, correctly—and in trying to school a woman on the kinds of rape.

 

[joko104]

Stop trying to demean someone for their position. You have no idea how they would act if they were faced with that situation and it would be wise for you to respect your ignorance on the subject. When someone says they will do something in a given situation show them some respect and consider their word as the truth and something they will carry through with when the times comes.

In short, shut the hell up, joko.

What an absurd message since you ratify my statement that I do not know how a woman would act facing such a situation. In short, your message is an extreme self contradiction.

 

[joko104]

I don’t think you see the irony in your own statement about talking in platitudes—hypotheticals, correctly—and in trying to school a woman on the kinds of rape.

There is no irony whatsoever it my stating a person does not know how he/she will react in and to a situation of violent assault until a person has been thru it. Nor is my stating so any insult or offense against anyone.

 

[joko104]

Considering i've been a critical care paramedic for over 7 years, i really don't need a lecture from you as to what effect violent assaults and medical crisis's can do to people joko, i am already well aware. I value life and know all to well how quickly it can be extinguished and i also am very confident of what i would do if i was placed in that situation. I would not abort the child. The end.

In no manner was my message an insult towards you nor was I lecturing you in any manner. Rather I was pointing out a truism about human nature.

The reason for my message was not "at" you. It was at the subject.

By analogy, prisoners of war who are tortured often, if not ultimately always, will tell the enemy secrets. There will always be men who would claim that no matter how much they were tortured they would never talk - and then call soldiers who did "traitors" and that they should be jailed or shot as traitors. Yet until a person has been thru torture they don't know what they would do.

There are women and men who will claim that she/he would fight to the death rather than submit to rape when facing a weapon or deadly force. Yet a person does not know what she/he would do in such a situation until it happens. Men who macho-like will claim they would stand their ground in various assault or bully situations, but have never been in such a situation.

I could post of my experiences in such regards as you did of your employment history, but I don't think that accomplishes much of anything on a forum nor a topic I care to venture deeply into anyway (and never do.) But it is for such a past I will stand behind my statement that in extreme situations in which violence is or was a factor a person cannot know his/her actual reaction - rather can only believe what it would be and what he/she would want it to be. People seemingly of strong personality can quickly become totally crippled in terror and emotions. People seemingly weak can exhibit extreme strength and stubbornness against manipulation.

I am confident that is the same in regards to this topic of sexual assault. I do not doubt your sincerity or belief in what you posted and in what you would do. Hopefully, you would in fact do as you wish you would on your values. But I will stand by what I posted too. And for a reason. Other women have believed she would do as you claim you would, but then didn't. Maybe on or will read this forum. My message, in a sense, is in defense of those women and not as an attack against you.

In my history on this forum, I have often stated in terms of reality I put little stock in slogans and platitudes. They are easy and a dime a dozen. Rather, it is reality that matters. Yet I won't blather on and on about it either, so "The End" is ok with me too.

 

[American]

The context is if a girl is raped she has to marry the rapist. The rapist owes her father money as well.

Virginity being magic isn't relevant.

Yes it is relevant, because at that time, virginity meant everything. As a rape victim she would be worth less or be unattractive to perspective spouses. Therefore the rapist must take care of her, and pay the father for his loss.

 

[davidtaylorjr]

Ok this came up at work today and ive been thinking about it a lot.

FOr the few that actually think this way, never met any in real life, could you explain to me the logic behind it. And not just the initial logic, though i do want that to but the aftermath logic.

For example the woman is raped and now she will be forced to carry the ZEF to term. Even if there is risk to her life and the risk isnt 60% or more.
What happens if she does die cause of the pregnancy, would you support murder charges?


next example is, ok she lives, now she is responsible for the product of rape for 18 years if she doesnt give the baby up for adoption. Im sure the kid will trigger zero memories/reminders of the rape, especially if the kid looks nothign like her and looks just like the rapist

WHen the dad "FELONY RAPIST" gets out and he has served his time and paid his dues after probably 6 years does he get parental rights? I mean his times has been served, he paid his dues.
if yes, are you saying the first thing the rapist gets to have is the address of the woman he raped 6 years ago? im sure that makes her feel great!
if he gets custody is he allowed to come to the house to pick up and drop off his kid?
in many states they dont do anything about child support if a parent is in jail so what about the first 6 years of the kids life he just gets off scott free


theres sooooooooooo many questions, and mind you, im sure there are probably people out there that think the father forfeits his rights so some of my questions are moot but it woulds just lead me to having others.

anyway for the people that dont even support abortion for rape expalin why please, i want to know YOUR LOGIC and YOUR OPINION on it, mine dont matter.

The reason I hold this opinion is the same reason I don't support any other abortions. We do not have the right to kill a human being because of the misdeeds of another. Now granted, some would argue that the "fetus" is not a human being and that is highly debated among scholars and experts.

As far as the dad, I would say he loses all parental rights.

 

[captainawesome]

Yes it is relevant, because at that time, virginity meant everything. As a rape victim she would be worth less or be unattractive to perspective spouses. Therefore the rapist must take care of her, and pay the father for his loss.

He owns her after marriage. That isn't taking care of her. Virginity isn't magic.

 

[joko104]

He owns her after marriage. That isn't taking care of her. Virginity isn't magic.

Virginity is highly valuable to some women and men.

In ancient times, "romantic love" was a new or non-existent concept and in relation to marriage. Trying to judge ancient religious rules on modern values doesn't really work. In some ancient cultures, women had no say in marriage and was totally dependent upon men/husband for even base survival needs. Within some of those cultures, a non-virgin woman was not marketable, possibly destining her to a fate as a beggar facing continual starvation and other lack of life necessities, and for which fornication, prostitution and being an adultress was punishable by death. This changes all the rules.

 

[captainawesome]

Virginity is highly valuable to some women and men.

In ancient times, "romantic love" was a new or non-existent concept and in relation to marriage. Trying to judge ancient religious rules on modern values doesn't really work. In some ancient cultures, women had no say in marriage and was totally dependent upon men/husband for even base survival needs. Within some of those cultures, a non-virgin woman was not marketable, possibly destining her to a fate as a beggar facing continual starvation and other lack of life necessities, and for which fornication, prostitution and being an adultress was punishable by death. This changes all the rules.

Virginity is meaningless. God could have had the rapist pay the woman he raped. Or God could have pointed out magic virginity is not true.

 

[joko104]

Virginity is meaningless. God could have had the rapist pay the woman he raped. Or God could have pointed out magic virginity is not true.

Virginity is not meaningless to most people. Maybe it was to you.

Among other things, non-virgin could mean indetectable, incurable, contagiously, sterilizingly, increasingly crippling, birth-defect causing and fatally infected with an STD and it could also mean pregnant. All of which is "meaningless" to you it would appear.

 

[captainawesome]

Virginity is not meaningless to most people. Maybe it was to you.

Among other things, non-virgin could mean indetectable, incurable, contagiously, sterilizingly, increasingly crippling, birth-defect causing and fatally infected with an STD and it could also mean pregnant. All of which is "meaningless" to you it would appear.

Virginity is meaningless. Can you tell if a female is a virgin?

STD,s are not relevant to the discussion unless that you mean that the victim should marry because she got herpies from the rape.

 

[AGENT J]

1.)The reason I hold this opinion is the same reason I don't support any other abortions. We do not have the right to kill a human being because of the misdeeds of another. Now granted, some would argue that the "fetus" is not a human being and that is highly debated among scholars and experts.

2.)As far as the dad, I would say he loses all parental rights.

1.) thanks for your opinion
2.) at least IMO you are semi compassionate

what about the if the woman dies because of the birth?
child support?

 

[joko104]

Virginity is meaningless. Can you tell if a female is a virgin?

STD,s are not relevant to the discussion unless that you mean that the victim should marry because she got herpies from the rape.

STDs are entirely relevant to the discussion of ancient culture laws in cultures in which women had little to no rights whatsoever. Actually, in some ancient cultures then and some current cultures too, they do virginity exams of unmarried females.

In some parts of Italy, there is still a honeymoon night ritual in which friends gather outside and below the honeymoon suite, ideally on an upper floor, and at some point the groom will come out on the balcony and toss down a sheet he poured some chicken blood on to prove she was a virgin.

I suspect most men could tell if a woman is/was a virgin the first time he has sex with her.

What seems irrelevant to this thread is what ancient Jewish and other cultural laws about rape and marriage has anything to do with a modern discussion of abortion issues.

 

[davidtaylorjr]

1.) thanks for your opinion
2.) at least IMO you are semi compassionate

what about the if the woman dies because of the birth?
child support?

I don't think you could charge murder, manslaughter perhaps, but you would have to prove he intended to kill her via the rape/pregnancy in order to get murder.

Child Support? Yeah, but that's a pretty useless system anyway. How many dirtbags don't actually pay the CS?

 

[joko104]

1.) thanks for your opinion
2.) at least IMO you are semi compassionate

what about the if the woman dies because of the birth?
child support?

Men in prison don't pay child support. If not in prison, I do not believe a requirement to pay child support would earn any parental rights towards the child. Rather, the payments are only restitution for a crime the same as restitution for any other crime. If a person is required to make restitution for damages done to a car he stole and damaged, that doesn't give him a right then to use the car in the future.

 

[captainawesome]

STDs are entirely relevant to the discussion of ancient culture laws in cultures in which women had little to no rights whatsoever. Actually, in some ancient cultures then and some current cultures too, they do virginity exams of unmarried females.

In some parts of Italy, there is still a honeymoon night ritual in which friends gather outside and below the honeymoon suite, ideally on an upper floor, and at some point the groom will come out on the balcony and toss down a sheet he poured some chicken blood on to prove she was a virgin.

I suspect most men could tell if a woman is/was a virgin the first time he has sex with her.

What seems irrelevant to this thread is what ancient Jewish and other cultural laws about rape and marriage has anything to do with a modern discussion of abortion issues.

Religion is the primary opposition to abortion and the primary force trying to change law.

I agree ancient myths should not dictate law, but that is the world as it is not how I want it.

So as ancient fairy tales do influence law we must discuss the superstition.

 

[joko104]

I don't think you could charge murder, manslaughter perhaps, but you would have to prove he intended to kill her via the rape/pregnancy in order to get murder.

Child Support? Yeah, but that's a pretty useless system anyway. How many dirtbags don't actually pay the CS?

No, no murder charge. Impregnating a woman (and/or infecting her with an STD or raping a woman or man when the rapist knew he had an STD) should be a SEVERE enhancement to the sexual assault charge. Other than the death penalty, in many states sexual assault can result in life without parole depending upon the enhancements to the core sexual assault charge. Each state words such differently.

For example, statutory rape (underage sex) would have a lesser maximum than aggravated (serious injuries) rape of a young child while having a firearm during commission of the crime would likely have the highest maximum and in many states life-sentence potential - for which having the firearm also greatly increases the minimum time served or prevents parole potential.

 

[AGENT J]

I don't think you could charge murder, manslaughter perhaps, but you would have to prove he intended to kill her via the rape/pregnancy in order to get murder.

2.)Child Support? Yeah, but that's a pretty useless system anyway. How many dirtbags don't actually pay the CS?

1.) this actually wouldnt be needed but the question is would you seek it
2.) again do you think he should pay is the question

 

[AGENT J]

1.)Men in prison don't pay child support. If not in prison, I do not believe a requirement to pay child support would earn any parental rights towards the child.
3.)Rather, the payments are only restitution for a crime the same as restitution for any other crime. If a person is required to make restitution for damages done to a car he stole and damaged, that doesn't give him a right then to use the car in the future.

1.) yes im aware as i mentioned earlier, its wrong and they should
2.) this is true they do not
3.) I agree and to help the kid/mother

 

[davidtaylorjr]

1.) this actually wouldnt be needed but the question is would you seek it
2.) again do you think he should pay is the question

I wouldn't seek murder, and I would like to see him pay CS but like I said, doubt it would happen. The guy would have a hard time getting a job to pay it anyway.

 

[AGENT J]

I wouldn't seek murder, and I would like to see him pay CS but like I said, doubt it would happen. The guy would have a hard time getting a job to pay it anyway.

1.) why not murder? many charges and convictions of murder have been sentenced on less

theres no way i dont seek murder charges, the answer is simple for me.

dirthbag rapes my daughter, she was forced to get pregnant and then is forced against her will to risk her life and carry the child to term, this leads to her death

theres no way i dont hold the rapist responsible

this would be what they call a simple "egg shell skull law"

for example you have a hairline fracture in your skull, im made at you and i wish you harm, I chuck a beanbag at you it hits your fracture i had no clue about and you die. my intent was to harm you so im responsible for all the consequences, whether they were foreseeable or not.

I dont even think it would be a hard case at all.

 

[davidtaylorjr]

1.) why not murder? many charges and convictions of murder have been sentenced on less

theres no way i dont seek murder charges, the answer is simple for me.

dirthbag rapes my daughter, she was forced to get pregnant and then is forced against her will to risk her life and carry the child to term, this leads to her death

theres no way i dont hold the rapist responsible

this would be what they call a simple "egg shell skull law"

for example you have a hairline fracture in your skull, im made at you and i wish you harm, I chuck a beanbag at you it hits your fracture i had no clue about and you die. my intent was to harm you so im responsible for all the consequences, whether they were foreseeable or not.

I dont even think it would be a hard case at all.

That could be.

 

[joko104]

Religion is the primary opposition to abortion and the primary force trying to change law.

I agree ancient myths should not dictate law, but that is the world as it is not how I want it.

So as ancient fairy tales do influence law we must discuss the superstition.

Yes. Organized religion and ancient values definitely do affect law and culture now and often wrongly so. Organized religion is the driving force behind "prolife" and creates all slogans and logic of it.

For example, they will always use the word "conception" (religious term) rather than "fertilization" - the known medical and scientific term. So even if a prolifer swears he's not motivated by religion, he will chant "life begins at conception!" rather than "fertilization" because religion wrote his slogan to chant (and the reasoning for it.)