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No $4,500 Electric Car For You!

So a dumb policy

It's not a dumb policy, it's a rational policy. The piece of shit politicians that you worship made an exception in order to benefit themselves and their wealthy friends. How can you blame them?

that only impacts a tiny percentage of Americans should be extended to everyone out of fairness?

No, out of human decency. Let people buy what they want, even if they're not rich.
 
So a dumb policy that only impacts a tiny percentage of Americans should be extended to everyone out of fairness?

But you claimed nobody would buy those cheap cars. So even if that's not literally the case, if you are accurate in your assessment of the market, there shouldn't be but a tiny number sold...right?

But for some reason, the exceptions to the safety mandates start at a quarter million dollars.
 
Those NHTSA are not in any way arbitrary. They exist to address known risks and hazards as a way to improve the safety and survivability of crashes. I've worked in the auto industry as an engineer. trust me on this. I used to be able to quote the number and complete passage of the relevant safety regs that my designs had to comply with. They are not in any way arbitrary. If any designer or engineer had a better way to achieve the same goal you were welcome to write up a paper and have it posted in the SAE or send it to the DOT for further review.

Safety is a society-wide issue. One driver can not refuse to obey or decide that they will not comply because their actions put others at risk because they drive on the roads and highways with hundreds of other people every hour of the day. We do not allow drunks to ignore DWI laws or people who use cell phones behind the wheel to use them because they claim that others are not harmed by their actions. You are not just you who is involved. You are part of a very interdependent society of equals and you are expected to conduct yourself and drive accordingly.

Except a quarter million dollars will get you into a brand new vehicle with no airbags, no ABS, no back up cameras, no side impact beams, no intrusive A-pillars.....

Almost like a certain segment of the population was deliberately exempted from all the stuff that is for the good of society.
 
Would you agree that they are subjective?
They are not in any way subjective. They exist for a reason to solve a known problem such as crash survivability. Most of the laws are years in the making, as are the solutions. They are not written by some petty bureaucrat. You can read how they are formed and what problems they exist to solve. I've never had that level of insomnia to want to read 500 pages of reviews and studies.

This is an SAE(Society of automotive engineers) study of how to increase the side-impact safety of electric cars. Brew a pot of coffee before reading it.

 
They are not in any way subjective. They exist for a reason to solve a known problem such as crash survivability.

Crash survivability is expressed as a rate, and the rate chosen by the regulator is entirely subjective. Whether it is 10 percent or 90 percent, in the end, it is nothing but the personal preference of the regulator(s). There is no objectively correct number.
 
But you claimed nobody would buy those cheap cars. So even if that's not literally the case, if you are accurate in your assessment of the market, there shouldn't be but a tiny number sold...right?

But for some reason, the exceptions to the safety mandates start at a quarter million dollars.
You are comparing a custom build of a classic muscle car to a cheap developing world car. Surely you see something wrong with such a comparison.
 
You are comparing a custom build of a classic muscle car to a cheap developing world car. Surely you see something wrong with such a comparison.

I'm not comparing anything about the cars other than they share the same lack of mandated safety features. One of them is legal to buy, because it is excepted from the regulations. Happens to be the one that starts around a quarter million dollars.

Still unaddressed is that you said nobody would buy the cheap little cars anyway. If that's the case, then what would it matter for those to have an exemption?
 
I'm not comparing anything about the cars other than they share the same lack of mandated safety features. One of them is legal to buy, because it is excepted from the regulations. Happens to be the one that starts around a quarter million dollars.

Still unaddressed is that you said nobody would buy the cheap little cars anyway. If that's the case, then what would it matter for those to have an exemption?
Because if you allow an exemption to safety and emission regulations for cheap pieces of shit that few would buy, you open the door to exemptions for everything else. Would you like our cities to have the same air quality as Indian cities? China has 8 times our vehicular death rate, is that what you want for the United States? Y’all argue as though safety and emission regulations serve no purpose.
 
Because if you allow an exemption to safety and emission regulations for cheap pieces of shit that few would buy, you open the door to exemptions for everything else. Would you like our cities to have the same air quality as Indian cities? China has 8 times our vehicular death rate, is that what you want for the United States? Y’all argue as though safety and emission regulations serve no purpose.

All you had to do, was say in the beginning that you had no problem exempting the wealthy from the regulations you expect the poor to abide by. We surely can't open the door to exemptions for the unwashed everyone. It only makes sense that such exemptions are reserved for the elite. After all, they're able to afford them.
 
Crash survivability is expressed as a rate, and the rate chosen by the regulator is entirely subjective. Whether it is 10 percent or 90 percent, in the end, it is nothing but the personal preference of the regulator(s). There is no objectively correct number.
That rate is not a static number. It will lower as the ability to make cars safer allows it to do so. We could build sedans and SUVs with a full CFRC passenger safety cell but the price of a Ford Explorer would go from $35,000 to 1,500,000. Maybe we'll sell you a car without airbags, ABS, and even seatbelts to lower the price $500. What is your life worth in an accident? The cost of your medical, liability and life insurance will rise more than the amount that you saved.
 
That rate is not a static number. It will lower as the ability to make cars safer allows it to do so. We could build sedans and SUVs with a full CFRC passenger safety cell but the price of a Ford Explorer would go from $35,000 to 1,500,000. Maybe we'll sell you a car without airbags, ABS, and even seatbelts to lower the price $500. What is your life worth in an accident? The cost of your medical, liability and life insurance will rise more than the amount that you saved.

They'll sell you a car without airbags, ABS and all the rest (does have seatbelts though) but it won't be cheaper. It costs a quarter million to play at that level.
 
They'll sell you a car without airbags, ABS and all the rest (does have seatbelts though) but it won't be cheaper. It costs a quarter million to play at that level.
Those are track cars not meant or even permitted to be used on the street. ABS is easy to defeat if you want to do that. Those delete options for track purposes often cost more than the same cars with them.

I never understood the allure of a million-dollar track car when I can lap faster with a 10-year-old Star (carbon fiber) Mazda or an older Formula Atlantic car. I did a lapping weekend at Mid-Ohio ($2000 lease for the day) and we were using Porsches, Ferraris, Lamborghinis and, a McLaren as chicanes. They were highly peeved when they learned how much we spent compared to their playboy toys. I could have heavily crashed the Star Mazda (write the entire side of the car off on the Armco)and had it back on the track for $15,000 when doing the same would write off their cars.

 
All you had to do, was say in the beginning that you had no problem exempting the wealthy from the regulations you expect the poor to abide by. We surely can't open the door to exemptions for the unwashed everyone. It only makes sense that such exemptions are reserved for the elite. After all, they're able to afford them.
All you had to do was say in the beginning you wanted to argue a straw man. I said right off the bat that just because we have a stupid exemption that effects a tiny portion of Americans does not mean we should open it up to everyone out of fairness.
 
All you had to do was say in the beginning you wanted to argue a straw man. I said right off the bat that just because we have a stupid exemption that effects a tiny portion of Americans does not mean we should open it up to everyone out of fairness.
The sales of 250K exotics cannot be compared to midsized SUVs, Honda Accords and Toyota Camrys.
 
All you had to do was say in the beginning you wanted to argue a straw man. I said right off the bat that just because we have a stupid exemption that effects a tiny portion of Americans does not mean we should open it up to everyone out of fairness.

I'm agreeing with you. The elite are more deserving of being exempted from regulations they might find a burden.
 
I'm agreeing with you. The elite are more deserving of being exempted from regulations they might find a burden.
Nobody is driving those exotics as an alternative to the cars that are not exempt. This is an apple to oranges comparison. The rich drive Mercedes S-class, BMW 7 series, Rolls Royce, or a large SUV, all of which are not exempt. There might be a few techie millionaires who drive s a Tesla S or a Model-3.
 
Nobody is driving those exotics as an alternative to the cars that are not exempt. This is an apple to oranges comparison. The rich drive Mercedes S-class, BMW 7 series, Rolls Royce, or a large SUV, all of which are not exempt. There might be a few techie millionaires who drive s a Tesla S or a Model-3.
The manufacturer says different. They have a backlog of customers and have delivered near 100, I believe. They're not track cars. According to the manufacturer, they can be registered in all 50 states. They are replicas of mid-60s Mustangs, and Revology is not the only company engaged in this business.

I'm looking for someone producing a replica '67 SS Camaro, just in case I win a lottery. 😀
 
I'm agreeing with you. The elite are more deserving of being exempted from regulations they might find a burden.
Again a straw man. Its a question damage. That is what regulations do, they mitigate damage. A handful of people spending huge amounts of money to skirt environmental and safety regulations might be unfair, but it won't make any difference in our vehicular death rate or pollution levels. However, if you open that up to everyone, then our quality of life would suffer.

Furthermore, I don't think anyone should be able to skirt those regulations regardless of how much they spend on a vehicle. So why should we open it up to everyone?
 
The manufacturer says different. They have a backlog of customers and have delivered near 100, I believe. They're not track cars. According to the manufacturer, they can be registered in all 50 states. They are replicas of mid-60s Mustangs, and Revology is not the only company engaged in this business.

I'm looking for someone producing a replica '67 SS Camaro, just in case I win a lottery. 😀
Replicas are a very small fraction of sales. Ford alone probably sells more than 200 F150s and Explorers per day(if they had the chips). Now factor in the equal sales from GM, Honda, Toyota, Chrysler, and Hyundai.

Boutique manufacturer Tesla sold almost 500K units in 2020.

Again a straw man. Its a question damage. That is what regulations do, they mitigate damage. A handful of people spending huge amounts of money to skirt environmental and safety regulations might be unfair, but it won't make any difference in our vehicular death rate or pollution levels. However, if you open that up to everyone, then our quality of life would suffer.

Furthermore, I don't think anyone should be able to skirt those regulations regardless of how much they spend on a vehicle. So why should we open it up to everyone?
Those cars aren't daily drivers anyhow. They very likely see much less than 1000 miles a year. It's a case of the exemption proves the rule.
 
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Again a straw man. Its a question damage. That is what regulations do, they mitigate damage. A handful of people spending huge amounts of money to skirt environmental and safety regulations might be unfair, but it won't make any difference in our vehicular death rate or pollution levels. However, if you open that up to everyone, then our quality of life would suffer.

Furthermore, I don't think anyone should be able to skirt those regulations regardless of how much they spend on a vehicle. So why should we open it up to everyone?
Yeah, you said nobody would buy the cheap ones. I give you the benefit of the doubt, and say it would be very few.

Yes, allowing everyone the exemptions afforded to the rich would be a disaster.
If there's going to be exemptions, it only makes sense they go to the rich.

What are we arguing about? I'm in agreement.
 
Replicas are a very small fraction of sales. Ford alone probably sells more than 200 F150s and Explorers per day(if they had the chips). Now factor in the equal sales from GM, Honda, Toyota, Chrysler, and Hyundai.

Boutique manufacturer Tesla sold almost 500K units in 2020.


Those cars aren't daily drivers anyhow. They very likely see much less than 1000 miles a year. It's a case of the exemption proves the rule.
The exemption proves the rule is flexible.

Ford sold a little over 2000 F-150 trucks a day in 2020, according to what I found.
 
The exemption proves the rule is flexible.

Ford sold a little over 2000 F-150 trucks a day in 2020, according to what I found.
So why even mention a replica business that has ever sold maybe 500 hand-built replicas? If they are using a modern engine with fuel injection they should be required to have some level of smog control, such as a simple catalytic converter and EGR loop. Many will get a simple roll cage. They certainly aren't going to be spec'd with the same brakes that Ford used in 1964 or even 1972.

Porsche has undoubtedly sold many more GT3 RSs that will never turn a wheel on the street and are destined for track use in FIA, IMSA, or Porsche club events.
 
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So why even mention a replica business that has ever sold maybe 500 hand-built replicas? If they are using a modern engine with fuel injection they should be required to have some level of smog control, such as a simple catalytic converter and EGR loop. Many will get a simple roll cage. They certainly aren't going to be spec'd with the same brakes that Ford used in 1964 or even 1972.

Porsche has undoubtedly sold many more GT3 RSs that will never turn a wheel on the street and are destined for track use in FIA, IMSA, or Porsche club events.

Just to point out that you can buy a vehicle that doesn't meet the safety mandates that keep cheaper vehicles off the market. Just need the buy in price.

I first illustrated it with my Triglide. Three wheels, no airbags, no seat belts, rollover protection or side impact guards. Hell...no 5mph bumpers. 40,000.

And SxS ATVs allowed by municipalities. Probably north of 25,000 to start, if you want some basic heat and weather protection.

But no cheap, basic, city type car allowed for the masses.
 
Just to point out that you can buy a vehicle that doesn't meet the safety mandates that keep cheaper vehicles off the market. Just need the buy in price.

I first illustrated it with my Triglide. Three wheels, no airbags, no seat belts, rollover protection or side impact guards. Hell...no 5mph bumpers. 40,000.

And SxS ATVs allowed by municipalities. Probably north of 25,000 to start, if you want some basic heat and weather protection.

But no cheap, basic, city type car allowed for the masses.
Older cars are still on the road and they don't come close to meeting current NHTSA specs are have ever been threatened to be removed because they do not. they just cannot be sold as new by the OEMs. All new cars must neet the current safety and pollution regs.

I have a 2010 Jetta with 120K plus miles. I'm not giving it up anytime soon because I don't like 99.9% of current cars. I hate SUVs and I don't want auto-pilot technology that tries to take driving away from me. I like to drive. Mine is a 6-speed manual.

Who has ever hinted that motorcycles or trikes must be automotive regs? That is a different class of vehicles. Do motorcycles even have ABS?

If people want to drive a cheap car then buy a used one. All new cars must meet the current 2021 NHTSA regs.
 
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