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Yeah, rivrrat, that's what I am saying. Give me a break. :roll:
Physically bashing someone over the head isn't really the same as hurting their feelings.
So let me get this straight... if an emotionally unbalanced person gets dumped by their girlfriend, or cheated on by them, and decides to kill themselves, you think it would be appropriate to charge the girlfriend with murder since she caused them emotional pain sufficient to make them CHOOSE to off themselves due to some underlying mental/emotional unbalance?
Because that's pretty much what you're saying.
Yeah, rivrrat, that's what I am saying. Give me a break. :roll:
Holy crap, seriously? Kids being *charged* with bullying? This happens day in and day out, across the country, for decades. Centuries! It's just a fact of life.
Yes, it's too bad that this girl had a serious over reaction, but it is NOT the fault of the bullies. She made the choice to do what she did. SHE did. HER. Alone.
Were the kids mean? Yup. Were they assholes? Yup. Did they cause her death? Nope.
If she had an underlying mental/emotional disorder that led to her being unable to handle negativity, that's not their fault either.
Ahhh So you're not saying that if someone does something that hurts someone elses feelings and the person whose feelings gets hurt has an emotional/mental disorder and offs themselves, that the person who hurt their feelings is somehow responsible? Because that seemed like what you were saying. And that's exactly what's happening now with these kids.
They're not getting charged with her murder or anything else actually directly connected to her suicide, from all the accounts that I have seen. What they are getting charged with are crimes that they were committing against her.
statutory rape - technically, at least one of the boys, according to the reports, does deserve this charge (personally, I'm not sure I agree with this charge being applied to students in the same school who sleep with each other voluntarily, but I can see the intimidation or corruption issue when talking about such an age difference)
assault - many schools have charged students with assault routinely for just being a single fight, from the accounts in multiple stories, she wasn't actually in fights, but was being physically assaulted, the details should unfold as the trial(s) begin
violation of civil rights resulting in injury - they pretty much brought this one on themselves, if, as from the information we have, they wouldn't have specifically insulted her with "Irish slut", there would have been very little chance of this being a charge
criminal harassment - they obviously were harassing her, even to the point where they were going out of their way to do so, off school property, and it continued on for 4-5 months before she killed herself, putting stuff up about her on various websites, calling her cell phone to harass her, even all the things they were doing to her at school, this is not normal teenage bullying, this is obsessive behavior, meant to get a reaction did they know that she would commit suicide over it-probably not, but they were going for something
disturbance of a school assembly - I have no idea what this charge relates to, I assume it will come up during the trial(s)
stalking - if they were following her home to yell at her and throw things at her and/or just showing up in her neighborhood to do the same, then it is stalking I have no idea if they live near her or not, but maybe the DA knows more than we do
Think of it like this, if these were adults doing the same thing to another adult, would you and/or others be complaining about the charges, whether the adult being "bullied" committed suicide or not? (Now obviously the statutory rape and school assembly disturbance charge wouldn't apply in my scenario.)
They're not getting charged with her murder or anything else actually directly connected to her suicide, from all the accounts that I have seen. What they are getting charged with are crimes that they were committing against her.
statutory rape - technically, at least one of the boys, according to the reports, does deserve this charge (personally, I'm not sure I agree with this charge being applied to students in the same school who sleep with each other voluntarily, but I can see the intimidation or corruption issue when talking about such an age difference)
assault - many schools have charged students with assault routinely for just being a single fight, from the accounts in multiple stories, she wasn't actually in fights, but was being physically assaulted, the details should unfold as the trial(s) begin
violation of civil rights resulting in injury - they pretty much brought this one on themselves, if, as from the information we have, they wouldn't have specifically insulted her with "Irish slut", there would have been very little chance of this being a charge
criminal harassment - they obviously were harassing her, even to the point where they were going out of their way to do so, off school property, and it continued on for 4-5 months before she killed herself, putting stuff up about her on various websites, calling her cell phone to harass her, even all the things they were doing to her at school, this is not normal teenage bullying, this is obsessive behavior, meant to get a reaction did they know that she would commit suicide over it-probably not, but they were going for something
disturbance of a school assembly - I have no idea what this charge relates to, I assume it will come up during the trial(s)
stalking - if they were following her home to yell at her and throw things at her and/or just showing up in her neighborhood to do the same, then it is stalking I have no idea if they live near her or not, but maybe the DA knows more than we do
Yes, I would be complaining about the charges regardless of age.Think of it like this, if these were adults doing the same thing to another adult, would you and/or others be complaining about the charges, whether the adult being "bullied" committed suicide or not? (Now obviously the statutory rape and school assembly disturbance charge wouldn't apply in my scenario.)
It's a real shame they weren't charged with any of this before she killed herself. It may very likely have saved her life. Her mother had twice asked the school to do something about her daughter's situation. Nothing was done. Maybe her death won't be in vain and other schools will now start paying attention at the first signs of trouble and nip it in the bud.
wasn't she raped, and otherwise physically assaulted?Holy crap, seriously? Kids being *charged* with bullying? This happens day in and day out, across the country, for decades. Centuries! It's just a fact of life.
Yes, it's too bad that this girl had a serious over reaction, but it is NOT the fault of the bullies. She made the choice to do what she did. SHE did. HER. Alone.
Were the kids mean? Yup. Were they assholes? Yup. Did they cause her death? Nope.
If she had an underlying mental/emotional disorder that led to her being unable to handle negativity, that's not their fault either.
correct, adults are charged with crimes for this kind of behavior all the time. maybe these kids will wake up and realize their behavior has consequences, but i doubt it.They're not getting charged with her murder or anything else actually directly connected to her suicide, from all the accounts that I have seen. What they are getting charged with are crimes that they were committing against her.
statutory rape - technically, at least one of the boys, according to the reports, does deserve this charge (personally, I'm not sure I agree with this charge being applied to students in the same school who sleep with each other voluntarily, but I can see the intimidation or corruption issue when talking about such an age difference)
assault - many schools have charged students with assault routinely for just being a single fight, from the accounts in multiple stories, she wasn't actually in fights, but was being physically assaulted, the details should unfold as the trial(s) begin
violation of civil rights resulting in injury - they pretty much brought this one on themselves, if, as from the information we have, they wouldn't have specifically insulted her with "Irish slut", there would have been very little chance of this being a charge
criminal harassment - they obviously were harassing her, even to the point where they were going out of their way to do so, off school property, and it continued on for 4-5 months before she killed herself, putting stuff up about her on various websites, calling her cell phone to harass her, even all the things they were doing to her at school, this is not normal teenage bullying, this is obsessive behavior, meant to get a reaction did they know that she would commit suicide over it-probably not, but they were going for something
disturbance of a school assembly - I have no idea what this charge relates to, I assume it will come up during the trial(s)
stalking - if they were following her home to yell at her and throw things at her and/or just showing up in her neighborhood to do the same, then it is stalking I have no idea if they live near her or not, but maybe the DA knows more than we do
Think of it like this, if these were adults doing the same thing to another adult, would you and/or others be complaining about the charges, whether the adult being "bullied" committed suicide or not? (Now obviously the statutory rape and school assembly disturbance charge wouldn't apply in my scenario.)
It's a real shame they weren't charged with any of this before she killed herself. It may very likely have saved her life. Her mother had twice asked the school to do something about her daughter's situation. Nothing was done. Maybe her death won't be in vain and other schools will now start paying attention at the first signs of trouble and nip it in the bud.
So they aren't charged with "bullying" as the thread suggests? Or as it's been suggested by other articles I've read?
Anywho, statutory rape is bull**** regardless
violation of civil rights resulting in injury - bull****
criminal harassment - bull****
assault - possibly not bull****, but I don't see much evidence of that atm
stalking - seriously? For following her home? Bull****.
They're grasping at straws. They're being charged with bullying.
Yes, I would be complaining about the charges regardless of age.
So then you believe that it is alright for someone or a group of people to constantly harass someone else, for 4 to 5 months or longer, as long as they aren't actually physically doing anything to that person then? If this is how you feel, then you probably won't see why these charges are appropriate, at least from what information we have been given.
Bullying is known as harassment in the adult world.
Is there an article that addresses what steps the mother took? If she were my daughter, if the school was doing nothing about it, I would take it to the next level and the next level until the situation was addressed.
Really? Physically assaulting someone is a crime, but maybe you don't know that.
wasn't she raped, and otherwise physically assaulted?
wasn't she raped, and otherwise physically assaulted?
CaptainCourtesy said:One cannot help if they are clinically depressed, either. I don't know if this girl was, but the analogy applies to emotional issues, too.
face to face, i would assault the mother of the bully myself. what a bitch.After reading the article in the OP and the one MCnoSpin posted, I wanted to find out more about the case so I did a search on Google news. I was especially interested in finding out if her parents were aware of the situation. So far the only one I found was in the NY Daily News where they mention that the mother asked the school twice to do something about what her daughter was going through.
It's in an article where the mother of one of the girls charged with harrassing Phoebe was trying to defend her daughter's behavior by claiming that Phoebe started it. Which, if true, is interesting in and of itself because she's generally being portrayed as someone who silently endured the abuse.
Here's the article:
In Massachusetts, public anger was turning from the Mean Girls - so mean they left vicious comments on Phoebe's Facebook memorial page - to the teachers who repeatedly failed to protect Phoebe, but were not charged criminally.
District Attorney Elizabeth Scheibel said Phoebe's persecution was "common knowledge" at the school, and even witnessed by teachers, who said nothing.
Her mother had twice asked school officials to help put a stop to her daughter's misery, Schiebel said.
The day she killed herself, a teacher saw kids harassing Phoebe in the school library - but said nothing until after the suffering girl's body was found hanging in her home.
The district attorney called the failure of adults at the school to stop the harassment "troublesome," but not criminal.
Read more: Mom of teen charged with bullying South Hadley H.S. student Phoebe Prince into suicide blames victim
Statutory rape isn't rape.
Kind of my thought too. I mean, what about the kids that are bullied and then bring a gun to school and start killing people? They're monsters. They're ****ed in the head. They're "kids gone bad". No one is charged with "bullying" them to the brink that they had no choice but to commit murder. No one says that the murders they committed weren't their fault because they had emotional/mental disorders. Yes, you hear allegations of "he wasn't well liked", "he was bullied", but you don't see people EXCUSING their murdering behavior because of it.Eckhart Tolle was clinically depressed, too.
I'm a strong believer in the idea that humans have control over their "mental filter." External stimuli are filtered through a series of mental structures which we have ourselves constructed over the course of our development; these mental structures are inevitable in all of us, and by many they are constructed unconsciously. However, they can also be refined and restructured through conscious thought. This ability to structure and restructure ourselves consciously is one of the most significant things that separates us from all other beings on earth.
External stimuli are taken in through the senses and filtered through these mental structures, and because these structures can be consciously conditioned this means that individual interpretation of this stimuli is a conscious act. This is why you see people that have a negative outlook on life continually view things in a negative manner; they set up their mental structures as to filter everything in such a way, and so they will keep on seeing the world in that way until they consciously change their structures.
If Viktor Frankl was able to find meaning in life through his conscious restructuring of his mental structures while in a NAZI concentration camp, I am more than confident that this girl could have in a Massachusetts high school.
Of course to everyone here that doesn't believe that humans are endowed with this incredible gift of enlightenment, this girl seems like a helpless victim. I wonder what would be the perception of her, though, if she brought a gun to school and shot up the place? Would she still be the "victim"? I highly doubt it. In that case the bullying would only be secondary, and those currently arguing against my point would paint her as a monster and condemn her. Yet the only difference between that scenario and the one that actually played out was her conscious decision.
If she kills herself, then she is a helpless victim and the "bullies" are to blame. If she kills others, then she is a monster and she herself is the only one to blame (consequently the "bullies" would then probably become the victims in their minds). So the outlook on the bullying is entirely relative to her actions, which means that this position (and this sort of "ex post" moral judgment) is entirely baseless, as it does not look at the bullying itself outside of the consequences.
Chapter 272: Section 4. Inducing person under eighteen to have sexual intercourse
Section 4. Whoever induces any person under 18 years of age of chaste life to have unlawful sexual intercourse shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for not more than three years or in a jail or house of correction for not more than two and one-half years or by a fine of not more than $1,000 or by both such fine and imprisonment.
Chapter 265: Section 13A. Assault or assault and battery; punishment
Section 13A. (a) Whoever commits an assault or an assault and battery upon another shall be punished by imprisonment for not more than 21/2 years in a house of correction or by a fine of not more than $1,000.
A summons may be issued instead of a warrant for the arrest of any person upon a complaint for a violation of any provision of this subsection if in the judgment of the court or justice receiving the complaint there is reason to believe that he will appear upon a summons.
(b) Whoever commits an assault or an assault and battery:
(i) upon another and by such assault and battery causes serious bodily injury;
(ii) upon another who is pregnant at the time of such assault and battery, knowing or having reason to know that the person is pregnant; or
(iii) upon another who he knows has an outstanding temporary or permanent vacate, restraining or no contact order or judgment issued pursuant to section 18, section 34B or 34C of chapter 208, section 32 of chapter 209, section 3, 4 or 5 of chapter 209A, or section 15 or 20 of chapter 209C, in effect against him at the time of such assault or assault and battery; shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for not more than 5 years or in the house of correction for not more than 21/2 years, or by a fine of not more than $5,000, or by both such fine and imprisonment.
(c) For the purposes of this section, “serious bodily injury” shall mean bodily injury that results in a permanent disfigurement, loss or impairment of a bodily function, limb or organ, or a substantial risk of death.
Chapter 265: Section 37. Violations of constitutional rights; punishment
Section 37. No person, whether or not acting under color of law, shall by force or threat of force, willfully injure, intimidate or interfere with, or attempt to injure, intimidate or interfere with, or oppress or threaten any other person in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the constitution or laws of the commonwealth or by the constitution or laws of the United States. Any person convicted of violating this provision shall be fined not more than one thousand dollars or imprisoned not more than one year or both; and if bodily injury results, shall be punished by a fine of not more than ten thousand dollars or by imprisonment for not more than ten years, or both.
Chapter 265: Section 43A. Criminal harassment; punishment
Section 43A. (a) Whoever willfully and maliciously engages in a knowing pattern of conduct or series of acts over a period of time directed at a specific person, which seriously alarms that person and would cause a reasonable person to suffer substantial emotional distress, shall be guilty of the crime of criminal harassment and shall be punished by imprisonment in a house of correction for not more than two and one-half years or by a fine of not more than $1,000, or by both such fine and imprisonment. Such conduct or acts described in this paragraph shall include, but not be limited to, conduct or acts conducted by mail or by use of a telephonic or telecommunication device including, but not limited to, electronic mail, internet communications or facsimile communications.
(b) Whoever, after having been convicted of the crime of criminal harassment, commits a second or subsequent such crime, or whoever commits the crime of criminal harassment having previously been convicted of a violation of section 43, shall be punished by imprisonment in a house of correction for not more than two and one-half years or by imprisonment in the state prison for not more than ten years.
Chapter 272: Section 40. Disturbance of schools or assemblies
Section 40. Whoever wilfully interrupts or disturbs a school or other assembly of people met for a lawful purpose shall be punished by imprisonment for not more than one month or by a fine of not more than fifty dollars; provided, however, that whoever, within one year after being twice convicted of a violation of this section, again violates the provisions of this section shall be punished by imprisonment for one month, and the sentence imposing such imprisonment shall not be suspended.
Chapter 265: Section 43. Stalking; punishment
Section 43. (a) Whoever (1) willfully and maliciously engages in a knowing pattern of conduct or series of acts over a period of time directed at a specific person which seriously alarms or annoys that person and would cause a reasonable person to suffer substantial emotional distress, and (2) makes a threat with the intent to place the person in imminent fear of death or bodily injury, shall be guilty of the crime of stalking and shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for not more than five years or by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars, or imprisonment in the house of correction for not more than two and one-half years or both. Such conduct, acts or threats described in this paragraph shall include, but not be limited to, conduct, acts or threats conducted by mail or by use of a telephonic or telecommunication device including, but not limited to, electronic mail, internet communications and facsimile communications.
(b) Whoever commits the crime of stalking in violation of a temporary or permanent vacate, restraining, or no-contact order or judgment issued pursuant to sections eighteen, thirty-four B, or thirty-four C of chapter two hundred and eight; or section thirty-two of chapter two hundred and nine; or sections three, four, or five of chapter two hundred and nine A; or sections fifteen or twenty of chapter two hundred and nine C or a protection order issued by another jurisdiction; or a temporary restraining order or preliminary or permanent injunction issued by the superior court, shall be punished by imprisonment in a jail or the state prison for not less than one year and not more than five years. No sentence imposed under the provisions of this subsection shall be less than a mandatory minimum term of imprisonment of one year.
A prosecution commenced hereunder shall not be placed on file or continued without a finding, and the sentence imposed upon a person convicted of violating any provision of this subsection shall not be reduced to less than the mandatory minimum term of imprisonment as established herein, nor shall said sentence of imprisonment imposed upon any person be suspended or reduced until such person shall have served said mandatory term of imprisonment.
A person convicted of violating any provision of this subsection shall not, until he shall have served the mandatory minimum term of imprisonment established herein, be eligible for probation, parole, furlough, work release or receive any deduction from his sentence for good conduct under sections one hundred and twenty-nine, one hundred and twenty-nine C and one hundred and twenty-nine D of chapter one hundred and twenty-seven; provided, however, that the commissioner of correction may, on the recommendation of the warden, superintendent, or other person in charge of a correctional institution, grant to said offender a temporary release in the custody of an officer of such institution for the following purposes only: to attend the funeral of next of kin or spouse; to visit a critically ill close relative or spouse; or to obtain emergency medical services unavailable at said institution. The provisions of section eighty-seven of chapter two hundred and seventy-six relating to the power of the court to place certain offenders on probation shall not apply to any person seventeen years of age or over charged with a violation of this subsection. The provisions of section thirty-one of chapter two hundred and seventy-nine shall not apply to any person convicted of violating any provision of this subsection.
(c) Whoever, after having been convicted of the crime of stalking, commits a second or subsequent such crime shall be punished by imprisonment in a jail or the state prison for not less than two years and not more than ten years. No sentence imposed under the provisions of this subsection shall be less than a mandatory minimum term of imprisonment of two years.
A prosecution commenced hereunder shall not be placed on file or continued without a finding, and the sentence imposed upon a person convicted of violating any provision of this subsection shall not be reduced to less than the mandatory minimum term of imprisonment as established herein, nor shall said sentence of imprisonment imposed upon any person be suspended or reduced until such person shall have served said mandatory term of imprisonment.
A person convicted of violating any provision of this subsection shall not, until he shall have served the mandatory minimum term of imprisonment established herein, be eligible for probation, parole, furlough, work release or receive any deduction from his sentence for good conduct under sections one hundred and twenty-nine, one hundred and twenty-nine C and one hundred and twenty-nine D of chapter one hundred and twenty-seven; provided, however, that the commissioner of correction may, on the recommendation of the warden, superintendent, or other person in charge of a correctional institution, grant to said offender a temporary release in the custody of an officer of such institution for the following purposes only: to attend the funeral of next of kin or spouse; to visit a critically ill close relative or spouse; or to obtain emergency medical services unavailable at said institution. The provisions of section eighty-seven of chapter two hundred and seventy-six relating to the power of the court to place certain offenders on probation shall not apply to any person seventeen years of age or over charged with a violation of this subsection. The provisions of section thirty-one of chapter two hundred and seventy-nine shall not apply to any person convicted of violating any provision of this section.
To a point I agree, to a point I don't.
I think some statutory rape can be. Generally with the very young, when they're coerced and manipulated by those much older, before they really have the ability to reason what they're doing or grasp the full possability of consequences.
However when its a 14, 15 year old and with someone else whose not even out of their teens yet its hard for me to really even think reasonably of someone calling that "rape".
My perspective as someone who has been actually raped is that "Statutory Rape" is a bull**** charge that is insulting to actual rape survivors.
But I admit I could be biased.
Redress said:"Statutory Rape" is a common term for what is usually legally called sexual misconduct. Don't get so hung up on terms, it's the real meaning that matters.
"Statutory Rape" is a common term for what is usually legally called sexual misconduct. Don't get so hung up on terms, it's the real meaning that matters.
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