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MSgt

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Shye, what a completely retarded thing to say. 1) We are not at war with Iraq. 2) America actually receives a small percentage of the oil that is produced from the Middle East. Europe and Asia have that market. I won't give you any more of my time.

Africa is unwilling to even help themselves. The only reason they are worse off than the Middle East is because they don't have oil to produce for the rest of the world. Buying them some nets and other things is just a band aid. That continent is full of war lords, militant leaders, and crime bosses that extort from villages and towns. Ethnic cleansing is deep rooted. We can not force people to be civilized. At least with the Middle East, they have structured governments with some modernization in their technologies. Africa would bankrupt everyone's government. Why is everyone on the Africa bandwagon anyway? Nobody seemed to have cared about it when I was in Somalia. They certainly didn't care when they lent their voices to Al-Quada and pleaded for President Clinton to just pull us out.
 
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Kelzie

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GySgt said:
Shye, what a completely retarded thing to say. 1) We are not at war with Iraq. 2) America actually receives a small percentage of the oil that is produced from the Middle East. Europe and Asia have that market. I won't give you any more of my time.

Africa is unwilling to even help themselves. The only reason they are worse off than the Middle East is because they don't have oil to produce for the rest of the world. Buying them some nets and other things is just a band aid. That continent is full of war lords, militant leaders, and crime bosses that extort from villages and towns. Ethnic cleansing is deep rooted. We can not force people to be civilized. At least with the Middle East, they have structured governments with some modernization in their technologies. Africa would bankrupt everyone's government. Why is everyone on the Africa bandwagon anyway? Nobody seemed to have cared about it when I was in Somalia. They certainly didn't care when they lent their voices to Al-Quada and pleaded for President Clinton to just pull us out.

Africa has no oil huh? Must be news to the Sub Saharan countries since they export 30 billion dollars a year of it. The reason they are worse off than the Middle East is that the vast majority of that money goes to MNCs and the rulers in their pockets. And it is rather rude of you to assume that you would have to force African to be civilized.
 

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Call it what you want but it is fact. I've seen it. They are brutal towards their own people. More so than the Middle Eastern militant Islamist. Genocide and ethnic cleansing is their heritage from one country to the next.

The oil you speak of from north Africa constitutes a very small fraction of the whole of Africa. We are talking about an entire continent in trouble. The Africa that is in trouble isn't the Africa you are talking about, not just the oil parts that you might think are more important.
 
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Arthur Fonzarelli

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Kelzie said:
Africa has no oil huh? Must be news to the Sub Saharan countries since they export 30 billion dollars a year of it. The reason they are worse off than the Middle East is that the vast majority of that money goes to MNCs and the rulers in their pockets. And it is rather rude of you to assume that you would have to force African to be civilized.

If this is true (& I have no reason not to believe you) then the argument that we don't help Africa because they don't have any oil for us to steal doesn't hold any water.

Now, for where I heard that argument...I can't say that I've ever heard a liberal politician say it publicly. I have heard it/read it in general debate on forums such as this. There are people who actually believe that's why we don't help Africa more. I've always wondered why we aren't at war stealing oil from Venezuela.
 

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GySgt said:
Call it what you want but it is fact. I've seen it. They are brutal towards their own people. More so than the Middle Eastern militant Islamist.

The oil you speak of from north Africa constitutes a very small fraction of the whole of Africa. We are talking about an entire continent in trouble.

Wait are you saying Africans are brutal to their own people or the dictators are? Since the first one seems rather odd, I'm going to assume you meant the second. In which case, correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the reason that Bush says we are in Iraq now was to remove a brutal dictator? The difference is?

And sub Saharan mean south of the Sahara desert, as in the southern part of the continent, and the majority of the continent.
 

Kelzie

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Arthur Fonzarelli said:
If this is true (& I have no reason not to believe you) then the argument that we don't help Africa because they don't have any oil for us to steal doesn't hold any water.

Now, for where I heard that argument...I can't say that I've ever heard a liberal politician say it publicly. I have heard it/read it in general debate on forums such as this. There are people who actually believe that's why we don't help Africa more. I've always wondered why we aren't at war stealing oil from Venezuela.

We don't have to steal their oil. The MNCs are already giving us (and other industrialized countries) it. Again, Venezuela already exports most of their oil to us (91% in 2003), so why would we?

And for the record, I believe there were many reasons why declared war in Iraq, and oil is just one of them.
 

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There is no difference. They are all brutal, but the degree of brutality extended from African men towards people of different tribes, villages, religion, etc. is of a particular severe cruelty. If you don't know what I mean, you should learn a little bit about what they do to each other. The problem with trying to do something about it is that we wouldn't get anywhere. We tried a little in Somalia and got pulled out when some soldiers died. Since then, we do what we can through monetary aid, doctors, small military support from Marines on MEU's and Marines deployed to the HOA.

The oil platform is played out. How worse is the oil issue supposed to get before people like you start looking for a new band wagon to preach from? We could own every pump in the Middle east by now if we wanted. We own none of it. By the way...when you visit your local gas station, do you ponder the evilness of America while filling your tank?

The oil producing places ijn Africa are minute compared to the whole continent. Why do you keep pressing this?
 
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Kelzie

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GySgt said:
There is no difference. They are all brutal, but the degree of brutality extended from African men towards people of different tribes, villages, religion, etc. is of a particular severe cruelty. If you don't know what I mean, you should learn a little bit about what they do to each other. The problem with trying to do something about it is that we wouldn't get anywhere. We tried a little in Somalia and got pulled out when some soldiers died. Since then, we do what we can through monetary aid, doctors, small military support from Marines on MEU's and Marines deployed to the HOA.

I happen to agree on the brutality. It is rather horrifying. My question is, that since you seem to believe that African dictators are more brutal than Islamic, why aren't we there instead of Iraq, if it is really about removing a brutal dictator? Shouldn't we remove the worst? And soldiers are dying in Iraq too, so why aren't we pulling out there?
 

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The oil producing grounds in Africa make up a very minute area in the Continent. Why do you keep pressing this argument? I could say that Antarctica is a flourishing place to live based on the argument that there is an observatory camp there too.
 

Kelzie

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GySgt said:
The oil platform is played out. How worse is the oil issue supposed to get before people like you start looking for a new band wagon to preach from? We could own every pump in the Middle east by now if we wanted. We own none of it. By the way...when you visit your local gas station, do you ponder the evilness of America while filling your tank?

The oil producing places ijn Africa are minute compared to the whole continent. Why do you keep pressing this?


Are you saying that the oil issue is going to get worse, or that there is no oil issue? And as I previously mentioned, I don't believe oil was the only reason for going into Iraq. We don't even get most of oil from the middle east.

And since you continue to insist that a few isolated countries are the only ones that produce oils, here is a map of Africas oil exporters.

agoa_c.gif


from here
 

MSgt

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You actually need an answer to that? As brutal as African dictators, African War Lords, and African soldiers are....they are no threat to us. When their people start skyjacking planes and bombing embassies they will become a threat. We have a more immediate problem in the Middle East right now.

In the mean time, how about rallying for Europe to get off of their asses and get over to Africa and start without us.

Exactly my point about the oil band wagon. We are not the recipient of most of the oil in the Middle East. If oil was such a factor, then why doesn't Europe take care of their own oil issues instead of waiting for us to always spearhead the attacks and point fingers? Your map of Africa is very misleading. That's like me showing you a map of America and showing red states where a crime has been commmitted. 50 red states hardly portrays the actual facts.
 
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Kelzie

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GySgt said:
You actually need an answer to that? As brutal as African dictators, African War Lords, and African soldiers are....they are no threat to us. When their people start skyjacking planes and bombing embassies they will become a threat. We have a more immediate problem in the Middle East right now.

In the mean time, how about rallying for Europe to get off of their asses and get over to Africa and start without us.

Did I miss something? When did Saddam highjack a plane?
 

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Obviously, you have missed a lot of something. THE ENEMY IS THE PERVERSION OF ISLAM. It is not the acts of selected individuals. Catching Bin Laden will accomplish nothing. The entire area is a breeding ground of hatred spewed by clerics that pervert the Koran and are controlled by the ruling class and dictators. The entire area produces terrorists.

The spread of democracy, as painful as it is, is the only thing that will see us to the end of this terrorist crap. A more democratic people and less oppressed people are less susceptable to the preachings of hatred.
 
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Kelzie

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GySgt said:
Exactly my point about the oil band wagon. We are not the recipient of most of the oil in the Middle East. If oil was such a factor, then why doesn't Europe take care of their own oil issues instead of waiting for us to always spearhead the attacks and point fingers? Your map of Africa is very misleading. That's like me showing you a map of America and showing red states where a crime has been commmitted. 50 red states hardly portrays the actual facts.

I have already pointed out that Sub Saharan Africa exports $30 billion worth of oil a year. That is hardly a small amount. So how exactly is the map misleading?

GySgt said:
Obviously, you have missed a lot of something. THE ENEMY IS THE PERVERSION OF ISLAM. It is not the acts of selected individuals. Catching Bin Laden will accomplish nothing. The entire area is a breeding ground of hatred spewed by clerics that pervert the Koran and are controlled by the ruling class and dictators. The entire area produces terrorists.

The spread of democracy, as painful as it is, is the only thing that will see us to the end of this terrorist crap. A more democratic people and less oppressed people are less susceptable to the preachings of hatred..

Since Saddam and his government had no ties to terrorism or OBL, I was under the impressions that Bush was now saying it was to liberate the people. And you still haven't answered my question as to why we don't liberate Africa. Are the people less worthy there?
 

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There are pumps in Egypt. Your little map doesn't show that, therefore misleading and inaccurate.

Terrorists come from hatred that is preached from clerics. Clerics are used to oppress their people by the ruling class and Dictators. Saddam used these tactics. There are terrorists that have come from Iraq. The same ideology that breeds terrorists in Syria, Iran, and Saudi was used in Iraq under Saddam. Blaming America and Israel for all of it's problems is the narcotic of choice in the Middle East. The ruling class and dictators use us as a scapegoat and blame us for how bad their people have it.

You have to get past the Democratic BS.

Whether or not Africans are less worthy is not my concern. I've gone there, I've done my part, and American civillians cried for our pull out when some soldiers got ambushed by Al-Queda. Going to Africa will not do anything. That continent is definately a job for the entire world community and that is something that we will never get, unless Europe is in need of saving again. Incidentally, do you know why a lot of those areas in Africa are screwed up and what countries had colonies in those same countries?
 

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Since Saddam and his government had no ties to terrorism or OBL, I was under the impressions that Bush was now saying it was to liberate the people. And you still haven't answered my question as to why we don't liberate Africa. Are the people less worthy there?
Sorry to interrupt, but the 9/11 commission report verified the link. The left in this country is still having a cow over going into Iraq. How could we possibly convince them we need to go into Africa. President Bush would be charged with all kinds of evil motives. Isn't a bit disingenuous to complain that we aren't doing enough in Africa, when the left claims the reason we are hated is because America has it's nose stuck in everyones business? Goes to show you can never make all the people happy no matter what you do.
 

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Squawker said:
Sorry to interrupt, but the 9/11 commission report verified the link.
You have piqued my interest. Could you please point out what exactly you're talking about so that i may know what you mean when you're using the word "link" here?
I mean, the US is "linked" to the iraqi insurgency. We met with members of the insurgency more than once.
So what kind of a "link" are you referring to?
To help: http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm

Squawker said:
The left in this country is still having a cow over going into Iraq. How could we possibly convince them we need to go into Africa.
Yeah. Once you squander you credibility, it's a "long, hard slog" to get it back.
 

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Squawker said:
Sorry to interrupt, but the 9/11 commission report verified the link.
That link was very minor and you know it-it had a one person link to the Al-Qaeda network and had absolutely no role in harboring terrorists of al-qaeda or even supplying money. They didn't do anything for al-qaeda, unlike the taliban. Small, small linkage here Squawker. Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11.
The left in this country is still having a cow over going into Iraq. How could we possibly convince them we need to go into Africa. President Bush would be charged with all kinds of evil motives. Isn't a bit disingenuous to complain that we aren't doing enough in Africa, when the left claims the reason we are hated is because America has it's nose stuck in everyones business? Goes to show you can never make all the people happy no matter what you do.
I know, that as a member of this left-I don't necessarily feel that way. I think we should be careful that we are doing the right thing before we enter into an international situation, and humanitarian aid is never a bad thing, and acting in conjunction with the un to stop what is going on in Africa is not a bad thing.
 
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GySgt said:
Obviously, you have missed a lot of something. THE ENEMY IS THE PERVERSION OF ISLAM. It is not the acts of selected individuals. Catching Bin Laden will accomplish nothing.

Actually i think that when we catch Bin Laden Al Quida will be a snake with it's head cut off. And catching him will make me and many other Americans sleep better at night.
 
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ShamMol said:
That link was very minor and you know it-it had a one person link to the Al-Qaeda network and had absolutely no role in harboring terrorists of al-qaeda or even supplying money. They didn't do anything for al-qaeda, unlike the taliban. Small, small linkage here Squawker. Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11.

That is exactly why we went to Afghanistan first. Iraq didn't have anything to do with 9/11, but Saddam sure had a hell of alot to do with terrorists. there are links out there they will just be hard to find.

ShamMol said:
I know, that as a member of this left-I don't necessarily feel that way. I think we should be careful that we are doing the right thing before we enter into an international situation, and humanitarian aid is never a bad thing, and acting in conjunction with the un to stop what is going on in Africa is not a bad thing.

We all know how hard it is going to be to get help from the UN. My guess is that Africa's problems will be solved by the same people that are fixing Iraq today.
 

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Gandhi>Bush said:
You have to be a pessimist to avert war? That's a new one.

Pessimism:

Definition:
[n] a general disposition to look on the dark side and to expect the worst in all things
[n] the feeling that things will turn out badly

Related Terms: defeatism, despair, discouragement, gloomy outlook, hopelessness, negativism, retreatism, suspense, uncertainty
SOURCE
With feelings of uncertainty, it would be easy to see why pessimists fall into the Anti-Iraq war trap.

Isolationism? I've never suggested such a thing, nor would I ever. You don't have to bomb people and occupy countries in order to help them.
World War II, many towns were leveled, but many lives were spared.
Hippies....HECK YES.
Finally we agree on something!
Anarchy... I'm lost, where did Anarchy come in
In anarchy, they do not believe in "order" but that things in the world happen in cycles. Its all too hard to explain.
My vocabulary is far to extensive to become President any time soon.
I was just kidding! But it was nice to see a response.
The notion that we have to constantly be at war is ridiculous. Plus, we're going to be in Iraq for a long time. A loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time. Much Longer than that word that I recklessly added o's to.
Many times our battles our not entirely of our doing, sometimes we actually do try to help countries by giving them food, but some times they shoot rocket propelled grenades at aid helecopters. AKA "Black Hawk Down". So we have good intentions, its just on how much our aid is excepted by other countries.

Thanks for your post! :mrgreen:
 

Gandhi>Bush

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stsburns said:
Pessimism:

Definition:
[n] a general disposition to look on the dark side and to expect the worst in all things
[n] the feeling that things will turn out badly

Related Terms: defeatism, despair, discouragement, gloomy outlook, hopelessness, negativism, retreatism, suspense, uncertainty
SOURCE
With feelings of uncertainty, it would be easy to see why pessimists fall into the Anti-Iraq war trap.

We're talking about the US ARMY. I have no doubts that they are plenty capable to handle any mess GW gets them into. If being angry about casualties is pessimistic, I guess I could be called pessimistic. GW already announced that the war was over... I guess he pretty much thinks we've won. This 'policing action' that we're engaged in now will probably be going on for a long time. I'm sure that we'll have troops there almost indefinitely.

World War II, many towns were leveled, but many lives were spared.

Dresden? Explain to me how such tactics as fire bombing a civilian city spared lives? You think that those actions made the Nazis sad and they lost morale? I think it would **** me off more than anything.

In anarchy, they do not believe in "order" but that things in the world happen in cycles. Its all too hard to explain.

I don't believe in Anarchy. I can't think of many anit-war people that do.
 

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You sound like a fanatic. Can't you just live your life without bitching about stuff you don't understand?
 

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GySgt said:
You sound like a fanatic. Can't you just live your life without bitching about stuff you don't understand?

Is that tone really necessary? All opinions and views are welcom here. If you disagree with one, refute it. If you can, that is.
 

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Of course it isn't the only way, but it's not as bad as you make it. I barely even think about. In light of the rest of the world, America is actually quite pleasent.
 
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