Next Test: Value of $125,000-a-Year Teachers

[Harry Guerrilla]

I do hope everyone realizes I am not making any argument at all.

In all honesty, I do not have an opinion about the concept, other than to give it props for what appears to be some original thinking.

There is enough wrong with education in America that it requires no grand statement of belief to wish every such effort the best of luck and to hope it yields some good.

Will this work? I do not know.

Is it a good idea? I do not know.

I knew it wasn't your argument, it was argument of the guy promoting the school.

 

[Real Talk]

Nurses don't make $125,000 and they provide a service I would argue is more valuable than education. And for the most part, they are wholly qualified to save your life, without the 6 figure salary. Teachers don't need 6 figures, but they do need a substantial raise, considering what they do is important. Maybe some teachers in large cities should make that much, only because COL is so much higher. But across the board, the average salary for a teacher shouldn't be $125,000.

They should get paid mroe than soldiers.

 

[Real Talk]

Here is a problem with the education system as I see it (bare in mind this example is not from the U.S., feel free to critique its relevance).

My friend has recently graduated, qualified to teach.
He is teaching highschool children social studies and history.
His first apointment was to a school in a poor rural area, with high fail rates, low achievement rates, generally speaking poor administration, and low resources.

He went ther eebcause of amrket economics. He is a new teacher. He will go where they will employ him. While the best teachers and most experianced teachers, they end up in private schools. Teaching in schools with low fail rates, high sucess rates, and where resources and administration is relatively strong.

I dont like this role of market economics in education.
The BEST teachers should be paid the MOST to teach at the WORST schools.

 

[Alex Libman]

The greatest problem in education isn't teacher's salaries, it's ideological stagnation and lack of individualism. Public schools are a 19th century communist idea that has no place in the 21st century! A society where the government can brainwash the children at will cannot possibly ever be free!

Homeschooling / private schools and the Montessori method FTW!

 

[Polynikes]

The Community College that I attend, I would say 90 % have their masters and many their PhDs. The starting salary for a professor there is $67,099. The starting salary for a professor with a doctorate is $79,516

That is starting off. The system works in 'step' and 'class' fashion. I am not sure how the steps work, I believe it is based on seniority. For instance if you have a class II rating at the 6th step it encompasses the following:

Master's or Baccalaureate Degree plus 36 semester units of upper division or graduate
coursework taken after completion of the B.A./B.S. requirements in or related to the discipline to which assigned AND/OR as part of a graduate degree program.


AND
Possession of the minimum qualifications or equivalent required to provide service in the position or teach in the discipline to which assigned, or the California community
college credential required to provide service in the position or teach in the discipline to which assigned.

That professor would make $87,810.

A couple of my friends that also went to this school and then later on to UCSD all say the same thing: They have never had better professors than at this Community College.

Every class I take I wonder how a professor could teach a better class, I've never been so impressed with members of a school's faculty.

The school can afford to pay this because the teacher's salary is paid partly from revenue generated from the property tax of the district the school falls in. The property in this district is VERY expensive.

Remember, these are Community College professors, they are not obligated to do outside research to maintain a position, they don't lecture to 200 students, the average class size is 20-25. They get summers off if they choose. Unbelievably good job.

You get what you pay for. This school attracts some very qualified professors who do an outstanding job.

 

[Polynikes]

I know what you are getting at, as far as the importance of what our society seems to value(i.e. Kobe and other sports figures getting held up as role models, while teachers toil in animosity), but the economic situations are apples to oranges. Thats why I have no issue with what he makes. He makes what he does, because he brings in that much money and more. Nobody wants to dress like their teacher....

I don't think it's a matter of valuing Kobe Bryant over a teacher, I think it is a matter of demand for a highly specialized skill. How many people could play basketball at the professional level like Kobe? Very, very few. How many people could become excellent teachers if they wanted to? A lot. Kobe is paid what he is because people are willing to pay to watch his skills that no one can match (except LeBron, who is better )

 

[WI Crippler]

I don't think it's a matter of valuing Kobe Bryant over a teacher, I think it is a matter of demand for a highly specialized skill. How many people could play basketball at the professional level like Kobe? Very, very few. How many people could become excellent teachers if they wanted to? A lot. Kobe is paid what he is because people are willing to pay to watch his skills that no one can match (except LeBron, who is better )

You know whats funny? Its always the sports stars that get their salaries taken into this argument. Its never any other aspects of entertainment that get chided, like acting or musicians.

 

[Real Talk]

The BEST teachers should be paid the MOST to teach at the WORST schools.

thoughts on this?

 

[Polynikes]

You know whats funny? Its always the sports stars that get their salaries taken into this argument. Its never any other aspects of entertainment that get chided, like acting or musicians.

That is true. How about we compare Paris Hilton getting paid $10,000 just show up at some club and do what she does best, get drunk and be a skank.

 

[Lightdemon]

The BEST teachers should be paid the MOST to teach at the WORST schools.

This is an excellent point because it shows that SES is a significant factor in one's class.

High Pedagogical skills do not always lead to student success, nor does the reverse. Therefore the justification for "merit pay" is wrong.

I'm not saying that teachers should not be paid more for their successes, but we really need to define success first before anything else. What's more important is who will be doing these teacher evaluations, and how likely are they going to be corruptible.

 

[Orion]

Next Test: Value of $125,000-a-Year Teachers
A damn good question.

Will this work? More importantly, if it does, can it be replicated?

It doesn't matter how much you pay a teacher, they still have human limits. An excellent teacher put into a class of 35 students is still not going to improve upon the value of each individual's education.

Schools need more teachers, not higher paid teachers, to balance out class sizes. More teachers with standard training and smaller class sizes versus simply paying teachers more is the solution IMO.

The better teachers are the more experienced ones anyway. It doesn't matter much to me if the teacher was trained at Harvord or somewhere great. Someone will 30 years experience is more valuable.

 

[Bodi]

Next Test: Value of $125,000-a-Year Teachers
A damn good question.

Will this work? More importantly, if it does, can it be replicated?

The issue is always looked at backwards, it is an issue about students and their motivation.

 

[Bodi]

It doesn't matter how much you pay a teacher, they still have human limits. An excellent teacher put into a class of 35 students is still not going to improve upon the value of each individual's education.

Schools need more teachers, not higher paid teachers, to balance out class sizes. More teachers with standard training and smaller class sizes versus simply paying teachers more is the solution IMO.

The better teachers are the more experienced ones anyway. It doesn't matter much to me if the teacher was trained at Harvord or somewhere great. Someone will 30 years experience is more valuable.

Exactly.......

 

[Real Talk]

The issue is always looked at backwards, it is an issue about students and their motivation.

its msotly a matter of socio economics.
Thats the honest truth.

 

[Bodi]

its msotly a matter of socio economics.
Thats the honest truth.

That is a part of it... but many lower class kids are very motivated and many higher class kids are not motivated at all...
Ultimately, it is a personal issue.

 

[RightinNYC]

It doesn't matter how much you pay a teacher, they still have human limits. An excellent teacher put into a class of 35 students is still not going to improve upon the value of each individual's education.

Schools need more teachers, not higher paid teachers, to balance out class sizes. More teachers with standard training and smaller class sizes versus simply paying teachers more is the solution IMO.

But the point is that there's absolutely no evidence to prove this. That's why this experiment is a great idea - to see if you're actually right.

 

[Lightdemon]

But the point is that there's absolutely no evidence to prove this. That's why this experiment is a great idea - to see if you're actually right.

Wait. Are you suggesting that class size is not a significant factor in a Teacher's ability to teach?

 

[RightinNYC]

Wait. Are you suggesting that class size is not a significant factor in a Teacher's ability to teach?

Of course it is. The question is whether the negative impact of having a larger class is outweighed by having a significantly better teacher.

We don't know the answer to this question - yet.

 

[Lightdemon]

Of course it is. The question is whether the negative impact of having a larger class is outweighed by having a significantly better teacher.

Thanks for clearing that up. I see your point now.

But I'll tell you what I do know. I've seen some great teachers who have struggled because their class sizes have gotten significantly larger. ESL/ELL classes are smaller because the students are not English proficient, and in my district the average ESL/ELL class size was about 20-21. Last year it jumped to about 29-30 because of the budget cuts. There has been a lot more failures reported this year compared to the last 5 years.

 

[Real Talk]

That is a part of it... but many lower class kids are very motivated and many higher class kids are not motivated at all...
Ultimately, it is a personal issue.

No. Ultimately (according to statistics of acedemic achievement) it is mostly a socio economic issue, or at elast a sociological one.

If it were a 'personal issue', we would not see these corolations.

 

[Bodi]

No. Ultimately (according to statistics of acedemic achievement) it is mostly a socio economic issue, or at elast a sociological one.

If it were a 'personal issue', we would not see these corolations.

I am absolutely correct, in fact. :2razz:

You are misreading the stats, or the stats do not cover the appropriate information then...

The stats show us lower socio economic people do worse, and that is it. I am looking deeper... the reason that lower socio economic people do worse is because they have less personal motivation since they do not understand the actual value (meaning more choice in life and higher salaries) of an education.

They think about daily survival, drinking and football games (or the All Blacks). They think and talk less about government policies, etc. It is something that they do not understand for varying factors, and so they are not motivated to learn about them...

You see the stat, I teach... I see and talk to the people that are the stat. The stat shows socio economic status and not why people are in that bracket. I see the underlining factors, less intelligence, less motivation, less understanding...

So when I say that it is a personal issue, it is that not all lower socio economic class people are less intelligent. Some understand the value of getting an education and getting out of the ghetto, so to speak. I see it happen all the time, but the vast majority stay where they are.

That being said, I know lots of rich people that get an education, or buy one, simply for the money, and they are stupid people. Perhaps they just have an intelligent parent, or whatnot... but nothing is universal, and stats are the greatest lying tool ever invented.



:2razz:

 

[UtahBill]

We agree to the low teacher-student ratio, and I think that is key.

A Quality teacher has the capability of teaching those 4 different ways. True the teacher cannot apply those methods at the same time, but with a more one on one approach (and the extended pay, which gets rid of the need for a 2nd or 3rd job, and more responsibilities and expectations for student-teacher relations).

The quality teacher should recognize and work with each student to find the one on one method that works best.

There are not many kids that need a curriculum tailor made for their learning problems, nearly all kids can get it using conventional 1 on 30 ratio.
The taxpayers are not going to hire enough teachers for one on one.

 

[UtahBill]

I am absolutely correct, in fact. :2razz:

You are misreading the stats, or the stats do not cover the appropriate information then...

The stats show us lower socio economic people do worse, and that is it. I am looking deeper... the reason that lower socio economic people do worse is because they have less personal motivation since they do not understand the actual value (meaning more choice in life and higher salaries) of an education.

They think about daily survival, drinking and football games (or the All Blacks). They think and talk less about government policies, etc. It is something that they do not understand for varying factors, and so they are not motivated to learn about them...

You see the stat, I teach... I see and talk to the people that are the stat. The stat shows socio economic status and not why people are in that bracket. I see the underlining factors, less intelligence, less motivation, less understanding...

So when I say that it is a personal issue, it is that not all lower socio economic class people are less intelligent. Some understand the value of getting an education and getting out of the ghetto, so to speak. I see it happen all the time, but the vast majority stay where they are.

That being said, I know lots of rich people that get an education, or buy one, simply for the money, and they are stupid people. Perhaps they just have an intelligent parent, or whatnot... but nothing is universal, and stats are the greatest lying tool ever invented.



:2razz:

Mark Twain said....there are lied, damned lies, and then there are statistics....
I spent a year in a group called "Relibility and Statistics" and even helped write a report for the NRC on instrumentation failures. By the time it was over, I almost asked to have my name taken off the short list of authors.
The boss said it best when he said (about a different study)...don't be too proud of the results, you know we made up most of the data presented here...

 

[Bodi]

Mark Twain said....there are lied, damned lies, and then there are statistics....
I spent a year in a group called "Relibility and Statistics" and even helped write a report for the NRC on instrumentation failures. By the time it was over, I almost asked to have my name taken off the short list of authors.
The boss said it best when he said (about a different study)...don't be too proud of the results, you know we made up most of the data presented here...

Stats are good to a degree, but I don't put too much weight into them...

 

[UtahBill]

Stats are good to a degree, but I don't put too much weight into them...

The ones who use stats to lie do their data gathering with the intent to decieve. They already know the results they WANT and the questions used are loaded in that direction...