'New Antisemitism' is Thought Control

William Rea · May 8, 2016

I think that this particular topic should be here because I believe that it raises issues that go beyond the politics of Israel, Zionism, Europe, US, Left or Right.

From other threads here on DP I have very recently discovered the existence of what is being termed 'New Antisemitism' which purports to address the issue of alleged antisemitism expressed through criticism and/or denial of Zionism or the State of Israel that has arisen in the 20th and 21st centuries. As I have only recently become aware of this phenomenon, and I try to be concise, it is quite possible that I have straw manned the 'New Antisemitism' position here and, if I have, I am more than willing to be corrected on that. Just to add, that this position is not without it's critics however, criticism of the philosophy itself appears to attract cries of 'antisemitism' and there are several institutions that have adopted definitions of 'antisemitism' that strongly reflect this 'New Antisemitism' philosophy and, that bothers me.

To kick off the thread, I am particularly interested in one aspect of this, which is that this is a form of presuppositional thinking; It unjustifiably demands the acceptance of a concept regarding the nature of Statehood and then within that framework attempts to expose 'flaws', not about what other people say about that concept but, what they think when they say it. For me, that in itself is as insidious a tactic as any that might be used by a 'genuine' antisemite. I can't help but think that this has evolved from a serious concern about the well being of a group of people into a form of thought control that seeks to close down criticism by putting an unwarranted assumption of guilt on anyone questioning the presupposition as a starting point.

I have adopted the no hyphen version of 'antisemitism' in this post. If I should be using the hyphenated version then apologies for that.

gunner · May 8, 2016

William Rea said:
I think that this particular topic should be here because I believe that it raises issues that go beyond the politics of Israel, Zionism, Europe, US, Left or Right.

From other threads here on DP I have very recently discovered the existence of what is being termed 'New Antisemitism' which purports to address the issue of alleged antisemitism expressed through criticism and/or denial of Zionism or the State of Israel that has arisen in the 20th and 21st centuries. As I have only recently become aware of this phenomenon, and I try to be concise, it is quite possible that I have straw manned the 'New Antisemitism' position here and, if I have, I am more than willing to be corrected on that. Just to add, that this position is not without it's critics however, criticism of the philosophy itself appears to attract cries of 'antisemitism' and there are several institutions that have adopted definitions of 'antisemitism' that strongly reflect this 'New Antisemitism' philosophy and, that bothers me.

To kick off the thread, I am particularly interested in one aspect of this, which is that this is a form of presuppositional thinking; It unjustifiably demands the acceptance of a concept regarding the nature of Statehood and then within that framework attempts to expose 'flaws', not about what other people say about that concept but, what they think when they say it. For me, that in itself is as insidious a tactic as any that might be used by a 'genuine' antisemite. I can't help but think that this has evolved from a serious concern about the well being of a group of people into a form of thought control that seeks to close down criticism by putting an unwarranted assumption of guilt on anyone questioning the presupposition as a starting point.

I have adopted the no hyphen version of 'antisemitism' in this post. If I should be using the hyphenated version then apologies for that.

Will, have you any philosophical references for the above?

William Rea · May 8, 2016

gunner said:
Will, have you any philosophical references for the above?

I kept references to 'philosophy' with a small p because I don't think that there are any academic works specifically related to 'antisemitism', I am looking at that now.

I don't particularly like it but, I am starting at the Wiki page and working from there, link below.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism#cite_note-Cotler-15

It mostly appears to be legal or political pieces.

I have however previously cited several 'working definitions' of 'antisemitism' that appear influenced by the so called 'New Antisemitism'

Defining Anti-Semitism

Antisemitism - A working definition: What Makes an anti-Semite?

EUMC Working Definition of Antisemitism « EPWG

If you have any references to share then please chip in.

joG · May 8, 2016

William Rea said:
I kept references to 'philosophy' with a small p because I don't think that there are any academic works specifically related to 'antisemitism', I am looking at that now.

I don't particularly like it but, I am starting at the Wiki page and working from there, link below.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism#cite_note-Cotler-15

It mostly appears to be legal or political pieces.

I have however previously cited several 'working definitions' of 'antisemitism' that appear influenced by the so called 'New Antisemitism'

Defining Anti-Semitism

Antisemitism - A working definition: What Makes an anti-Semite?

EUMC Working Definition of Antisemitism « EPWG

If you have any references to share then please chip in.

Most of the literature i pulled were either books I would have to buy, German newspaper articles or new papers on Heidegger.

dimensionallava · May 8, 2016

from your source

"[R]ecently we have witnessed the rise of the new left which identifies Israel with the establishment, with acquisition, with smug satisfaction, with, in fact, all the basic enemies … Let there be no mistake: the new left is the author and the progenitor of the new anti-Semitism. One of the chief tasks of any dialogue with the Gentile world is to prove that the distinction between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism is not a distinction at all. Anti-Zionism is merely the new anti-Semitism. The old classic anti-Semitism declared that equal rights belong to all individuals within the society, except the Jews. The new anti-Semitism says that the right to establish and maintain an independent national sovereign state is the prerogative of all nations, so long as they happen not to be Jewish. And when this right is exercised not by the Maldive Islands, not by the state of Gabon, not by Barbados… but by the oldest and most authentic of all nationhoods, then this is said to be exclusivism, particularism, and a flight of the Jewish people from its universal mission."

I dont think there's anything new about people who criticize Israel being falsely deemed antisemitic, and the concept might have been considered new in the 1960's when israel was first founded (through a pretty bloody war), but there are many who criticize even the concept of nationalism, so if one person says that there needs to be a home for the jewish people and them alone, and another person doesn't believe the world should be divided by race or religion that way, that doesn't mean he is antisemitic

plenty of rabbis are antizionist

gunner · May 8, 2016

William Rea said:
I kept references to 'philosophy' with a small p because I don't think that there are any academic works specifically related to 'antisemitism', I am looking at that now.

I don't particularly like it but, I am starting at the Wiki page and working from there, link below.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism#cite_note-Cotler-15

It mostly appears to be legal or political pieces.

I have however previously cited several 'working definitions' of 'antisemitism' that appear influenced by the so called 'New Antisemitism'

Defining Anti-Semitism

Antisemitism - A working definition: What Makes an anti-Semite?

EUMC Working Definition of Antisemitism « EPWG

If you have any references to share then please chip in.

Thanks for that, as you know Philosophy is my bag so I'll come back later, when I have more time

Paleocon · May 8, 2016

William Rea said:
I think that this particular topic should be here because I believe that it raises issues that go beyond the politics of Israel, Zionism, Europe, US, Left or Right.

From other threads here on DP I have very recently discovered the existence of what is being termed 'New Antisemitism' which purports to address the issue of alleged antisemitism expressed through criticism and/or denial of Zionism or the State of Israel that has arisen in the 20th and 21st centuries. As I have only recently become aware of this phenomenon, and I try to be concise, it is quite possible that I have straw manned the 'New Antisemitism' position here and, if I have, I am more than willing to be corrected on that. Just to add, that this position is not without it's critics however, criticism of the philosophy itself appears to attract cries of 'antisemitism' and there are several institutions that have adopted definitions of 'antisemitism' that strongly reflect this 'New Antisemitism' philosophy and, that bothers me.

To kick off the thread, I am particularly interested in one aspect of this, which is that this is a form of presuppositional thinking; It unjustifiably demands the acceptance of a concept regarding the nature of Statehood and then within that framework attempts to expose 'flaws', not about what other people say about that concept but, what they think when they say it. For me, that in itself is as insidious a tactic as any that might be used by a 'genuine' antisemite. I can't help but think that this has evolved from a serious concern about the well being of a group of people into a form of thought control that seeks to close down criticism by putting an unwarranted assumption of guilt on anyone questioning the presupposition as a starting point.

I have adopted the no hyphen version of 'antisemitism' in this post. If I should be using the hyphenated version then apologies for that.

It's standard leftist tactics (e.g. insinuating bad motives, deeming any criticism of a designated victim group forbidden) applied to the original wedge minority.

calm · May 8, 2016

William Rea said:
I think that this particular topic should be here because I believe that it raises issues that go beyond the politics of Israel, Zionism, Europe, US, Left or Right.

I follow this topic rather closely.

I have taken all the entries I have collected over the years and created a single html page for you and which you can utilize to further your "philosophical" pursuit.
In addition, I have removed any and all references to my website so as not to appear to be advertising or whatever.

It is rather a large page to view on-line [348,304 MB] .... and thus you may simply want to right-click and save to your hard drive and view it off-line.

If They Call You An Anti-Semite, What Should You Do?
http://www.pair-annoyed.com:9090/NEWS/Israel-IfTheyCallYouAnAnti-SemiteWhatShouldYouDo.html

If there was a document or video which you would want to view, simply ask me and I would make it available to you.

Calm

Rogue Valley · May 8, 2016

calm said:
I follow this topic rather closely.

And I've noticed that you have no problem utilizing highly biased anti-Israel sources such as Rense and MondoWeiss.

calm · May 8, 2016

Simpleχity;1065843684 said:
And I've noticed that you have no problem utilizing highly biased anti-Israel sources such as Rense and MondoWeiss.

Well, I view most everything concerning this topic.

When attempting to understand both sides of any issue, you would need to view/hear all avenues of discourse.

Your comment is somewhat identical to what most Pro-Israeli forces use .... and where the address of where the content is originating from rather than the specifics of content itself.

Calm

Apocalypse · May 8, 2016

Simpleχity;1065843684 said:
And I've noticed that you have no problem utilizing highly biased anti-Israel sources such as Rense and MondoWeiss.

calm said:
I'm reminded of Olden Days and when wars began, the Jewish Folks never cared about who won any conflict because it was just Godless Gentiles at war. Immediately after hostilities began between any country, the Jewish Folks loaded up their camels and headed for the main roadways and supplied or traded with any Gentile passing by. Following the war, it was the Jewish Folks who were again seated by the throne of government power because they had accumulated such wealth by feeding the war machines.

And they are doing the same thing today.

And that's probably one of the least awful ones of his many gems.

Apocalypse · May 8, 2016

dimensionallava said:
from your source

I dont think there's anything new about people who criticize Israel being falsely deemed antisemitic, and the concept might have been considered new in the 1960's when israel was first founded (through a pretty bloody war), but there are many who criticize even the concept of nationalism, so if one person says that there needs to be a home for the jewish people and them alone, and another person doesn't believe the world should be divided by race or religion that way, that doesn't mean he is antisemitic

plenty of rabbis are antizionist

Neturei Karta (the folks in your pictures) are a minority among ultra-orthodox Jews who oppose Israel's existance because they believe that only the Messiah should have reestablished the Jewsih kingdom and thus Israel was born with sin against God. It's thus due to their belief that they are 'anti-Zionists', all the stuff they do is done because they wish to undermine Israel, including Holocaust denial and meeting with the Iranian President, Ahmedinejad, and showing him their support back in the day.

Regarding your other statement, Israel is Jewish in the same sense the Netherlands is Dutch, national-wise. The Jews are first of all a people and only then an ethnic and/or religious group.

mbig · May 8, 2016

William Rea said:
I think that this particular topic should be here because I believe that it raises issues that go beyond the politics of Israel, Zionism, Europe, US, Left or Right.
From other threads here on DP
I have very recently discovered the existence of what is being termed 'New Antisemitism' which purports to address the issue of alleged antisemitism expressed through criticism and/or denial of Zionism or the State of Israel that has arisen in the 20th and 21st centuries.
As I have only recently become aware of this phenomenon, and I try to be concise, it is quite possible that I have straw manned the 'New Antisemitism' position here and, if I have, I am more than willing to be corrected on that. Just to add, that this position is not without it's critics however, criticism of the philosophy itself appears to attract cries of 'antisemitism' and there are several institutions that have adopted definitions of 'antisemitism' that strongly reflect this 'New Antisemitism' philosophy and, that bothers me.

To kick off the thread, I am particularly interested in one aspect of this, which is that this is a form of presuppositional thinking; It unjustifiably demands the acceptance of a concept regarding the nature of Statehood and then within that framework attempts to expose 'flaws', not about what other people say about that concept but, what they think when they say it. For me, that in itself is as insidious a tactic as any that might be used by a 'genuine' antisemite. I can't help but think that this has evolved from a serious concern about the well being of a group of people into a form of thought control that seeks to close down criticism by putting an unwarranted assumption of guilt on anyone questioning the presupposition as a starting point...

As often, that Information would have been from me:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...ow-councillor-suspended-3.html#post1065822914
which isn't/shouldn't really be that New.
Especially for an experienced I-P poster like you.

Surely you have watched knuckle-dragging antisemites become 'anti-cough-zionists' over the last decade.
I have, on Many message boards. Hoards. (not to mention a presence in this very string. How do you explain/ignore/denial that?)

In the above link, there was some quite extensive delineation you did NOT address, which explains how to discern one from the other. My own as well as a long list from Dershowitz.
ie, Surely the morph from Jewish Bankers to Zionist Bankers, or Jewish world/USA control to ZOG, are obvious examples, without going through alot more.

Yet you disingenuously drop the explanatory parts (and where exactly you became aware of the term), and reject the whole concept as 'thought control' without mentioningmy additional content, and what even an Israel critic like you Must have noticed on many boards.
Perhaps ideology allows certain oversight.

calm · May 8, 2016

Apocalypse said:
And that's probably one of the least awful ones of his many gems.

Quote Originally Posted by calm
"I'm reminded of Olden Days and when wars began, the Jewish Folks never cared about who won any conflict because it was just Godless Gentiles at war. Immediately after hostilities began between any country, the Jewish Folks loaded up their camels and headed for the main roadways and supplied or traded with any Gentile passing by. Following the war, it was the Jewish Folks who were again seated by the throne of government power because they had accumulated such wealth by feeding the war machines.

And they are doing the same thing today".
-----

The above mentioned statement is absolutely and accurately true in the historical sense. Make no mistake of that.

I am tempted to lay out my case with proof, but then I would fall into your trap and be accused of being off topic.

Calm

Sherman123 · May 8, 2016

William Rea said:
I think that this particular topic should be here because I believe that it raises issues that go beyond the politics of Israel, Zionism, Europe, US, Left or Right.

From other threads here on DP I have very recently discovered the existence of what is being termed 'New Antisemitism' which purports to address the issue of alleged antisemitism expressed through criticism and/or denial of Zionism or the State of Israel that has arisen in the 20th and 21st centuries. As I have only recently become aware of this phenomenon, and I try to be concise, it is quite possible that I have straw manned the 'New Antisemitism' position here and, if I have, I am more than willing to be corrected on that. Just to add, that this position is not without it's critics however, criticism of the philosophy itself appears to attract cries of 'antisemitism' and there are several institutions that have adopted definitions of 'antisemitism' that strongly reflect this 'New Antisemitism' philosophy and, that bothers me.

To kick off the thread, I am particularly interested in one aspect of this, which is that this is a form of presuppositional thinking; It unjustifiably demands the acceptance of a concept regarding the nature of Statehood and then within that framework attempts to expose 'flaws', not about what other people say about that concept but, what they think when they say it. For me, that in itself is as insidious a tactic as any that might be used by a 'genuine' antisemite. I can't help but think that this has evolved from a serious concern about the well being of a group of people into a form of thought control that seeks to close down criticism by putting an unwarranted assumption of guilt on anyone questioning the presupposition as a starting point.

I have adopted the no hyphen version of 'antisemitism' in this post. If I should be using the hyphenated version then apologies for that.

I agree with much of what you've said but I believe that your definition of 'new antisemitism' and what it is referring to is incorrectly defined. The most common understanding of the phrase refers to how real and venomous antisemitism often lurks behind the mask of anti-Zionism, left wing political discourse (like we saw in Europe in the aftermath of the financial collapse), and other associated ideologies.

Chagos · May 8, 2016

dimensionallava said:
f...................in the 1960's when israel was first founded (through a pretty bloody war),......................

You might want to read up on that again.

Chagos · May 8, 2016

The trouble most often arises in many critical of Israeli policy thoughtlessly labelling themselves anti-Zionist.

Not having much of an idea what Zionism is about and what they are thus opposing.

By default anti-Zionism means dissolving the state of Israel. That may not be the intention of someone critical of Israel at all, but then they'd do well to get their terminology right, instead of flinging around terms with careless abandon.

eohrnberger · May 8, 2016

Paleocon said:
It's standard leftist tactics (e.g. insinuating bad motives, deeming any criticism of a designated victim group forbidden) applied to the original wedge minority.

That's my first reaction to reading / learning about this. Seems to be that it's an attempt to restrict freedom of thought and freedom of speech.

I don't think that there is anything that should be barred from critical criticism. I do not believe in sacred cows.

dimensionallava · May 9, 2016

Apocalypse said:
Neturei Karta (the folks in your pictures) are a minority among ultra-orthodox Jews who oppose Israel's existance because they believe that only the Messiah should have reestablished the Jewsih kingdom and thus Israel was born with sin against God. It's thus due to their belief that they are 'anti-Zionists', all the stuff they do is done because they wish to undermine Israel, including Holocaust denial and meeting with the Iranian President, Ahmedinejad, and showing him their support back in the day.

I know who they are, but they are jewish and they are rabbis, they also arent the only group of jewish people who protest against israel, there was a huge protest with thousands of jews in NYC outside the UN last year against netanyahu's visit to America.

“We are here to disassociate ourselves from the dangerous statements he’s making – statement that puts Jews in danger,” he added.
Rabbi Shapiro also lambasted those who compare Satmar – who is against Zionism – to Neturei Karta, who associate themselves with Iran and the Palestinians. “We don’t believe that Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people. And when a leader of a foreign country comes to America to trash the president and says he’s our representative, the question is not why us but where is everybody else?” he explained.
read more: Thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews Protest in NYC Over Netanyahu's Congress Speech - Jewish World News - Haaretz - Israel News Haaretz.com

Regarding your other statement, Israel is Jewish in the same sense the Netherlands is Dutch, national-wise. The Jews are first of all a people and only then an ethnic and/or religious group.

Well first of all since this is about new antisemitism, the topic should be about internationalism, and while the concept of internationalism might have been strange when israel was founded, when countries like america were still justifying segregation laws, how can you justify creating a state specifically for the jews or anyone else in 2016?

dimensionallava · May 9, 2016

Chagos said:
You might want to read up on that again.

which date do you use? 1948? 1949? 1100 BCE? I consider their founding to be the day after 6 day war, before that they were still basically a british colony. Just like Canada wasn't "really" independent until 1982, or South africa until 1997

Apocalypse · May 9, 2016

dimensionallava said:
I know who they are, but they are jewish and they are rabbis, they also arent the only group of jewish people who protest against israel, there was a huge protest with thousands of jews in NYC outside the UN last year against netanyahu's visit to America.

Sure. They're still a clear minority though, and I've explained why they oppose Israel.

Well first of all since this is about new antisemitism, the topic should be about internationalism, and while the concept of internationalism might have been strange when israel was founded, when countries like america were still justifying segregation laws, how can you justify creating a state specifically for the jews or anyone else in 2016?

A person has the same rights in the country whether he is of a Jewish descent or any other. The country is Jewish in its identity, meaning the same way that the Netherlands, as I already pointed out, is Dutch in its identity, Israel is no different than any other nation-state on the planet.

dimensionallava · May 9, 2016

Apocalypse said:
Sure. They're still a clear minority though, and I've explained why they oppose Israel.

A person has the same rights in the country whether he is of a Jewish descent or any other. The country is Jewish in its identity, meaning the same way that the Netherlands, as I already pointed out, is Dutch in its identity, Israel is no different than any other nation-state on the planet.

and as a communist I am against all nation-states, does that automatically make me an antisemite?

Apocalypse · May 9, 2016

dimensionallava said:
and as a communist I am against all nation-states, does that automatically make me an antisemite?

No. It makes you a Communist though.

dimensionallava · May 9, 2016

Apocalypse said:
No. It makes you a Communist though.

anarchists, socialists, and anyone else who believes in internationalism, which also includes almost every single religious philosophy, and imperialist philosophy, as well

Chagos · May 9, 2016

dimensionallava said:
which date do you use? 1948? 1949? 1100 BCE? I consider their founding to be the day after 6 day war, before that they were still basically a british colony. Just like Canada wasn't "really" independent until 1982, or South africa until 1997

You sure have a lot to read up on.

'New Antisemitism' is Thought Control

William Rea

gunner

William Rea

joG

dimensionallava

gunner

Paleocon

calm

Rogue Valley

Lead or get out of the way

calm

Apocalypse

DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!

Apocalypse

DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!

mbig

onomatopoeic

calm

Sherman123

Chagos

Chagos

eohrnberger

dimensionallava

dimensionallava

Apocalypse

DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!

dimensionallava

Apocalypse

DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!

dimensionallava

Chagos

'New Antisemitism' is Thought Control

Lead or get out of the way

DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!

DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!

onomatopoeic

DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!

DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!

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