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Netherlands goes down!

Cyrillic said:
Going Dutch: 'Game over for euro if Netherlands quits' - YouTube

Weed state goes down!
When will they get up or will they follow southern neighbor?
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Although I don't consider RT to be a reputable media source, I agree completely.

Nothing would make me happier than to see the euro fail. Not out of vindictiveness (I live in Germany) but because I realize that it is a ridiculous ideal, and that we will all be better when we go back to national currencies.
 
RT is a great source of humor and lessons on dishonesty & propaganda.

that's about it.
 
Well that gloat train ended rather quickly, I can see how Russia supporters would want to fragment Europe in the post Cold War era. Europe trending toward unity plays on Russia security concerns. Little good has come from a united Europe as far as Russia is concerned.
 
notquiteright said:
Well that gloat train ended rather quickly, I can see how Russia supporters would want to fragment Europe in the post Cold War era. Europe trending toward unity plays on Russia security concerns. Little good has come from a united Europe as far as Russia is concerned.
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It's this very assumption that the euro (currency) itself is somehow keeping the continent strong and together that is their problem. Being a strong band of allies in the EU has nothing to do with sharing a bank account. Those who proposed the euro did it against the will of the people, and continue to do so for nothing but political gain.
 
It's a bit silly we have to cut spending by 14 billion euros and at the same time transfer billions of euros to Brussels for the ESM emergency fund and the Greek bail out.
 
I was stationed in the FRG many moons ago. I remember marks. Got a LR shooting buddy in Bornhiem, have visited him a few times, he comes over here a lot because Germany lacks long range facilities to practice. I do believe that sometimes you have to lash everyone to the boat before some quit wanting to jump out at the first big wave.

It does appear nations are coming to terms with the need to hang together.

I hope you don't think anyone believes the Euro is THE glue in this, more like a symbol of the bond. Our colonies had the same issues trying to band together as states in a newly formed and highly experimental Union. If you compare the plantation south, mercantile north, and primitive frontier buffer states to Europe I'd opine the EU has a MUCH simpler task.

Perhaps it is the centuries of religious, territory, ego's and national pride that creates so much friction. Let's face it, ask any Frenchman his opinion of the rest of Europe- then give it a German accent... ;)

Russia does have a very vested interest in Europe. It has been invaded repeatedly by 'them' throughout it's history. I'm sure they firmly believe no good comes from a strong Europe. That the OP jumped up so quickly to give advance cheers for an event that never happened but was high on Russia's wish list...

Just was odd...
 
notquiteright said:
I was stationed in the FRG many moons ago. I remember marks. Got a LR shooting buddy in Bornhiem, have visited him a few times, he comes over here a lot because Germany lacks long range facilities to practice. I do believe that sometimes you have to lash everyone to the boat before some quit wanting to jump out at the first big wave.

It does appear nations are coming to terms with the need to hang together.

I hope you don't think anyone believes the Euro is THE glue in this, more like a symbol of the bond. Our colonies had the same issues trying to band together as states in a newly formed and highly experimental Union. If you compare the plantation south, mercantile north, and primitive frontier buffer states to Europe I'd opine the EU has a MUCH simpler task.

Perhaps it is the centuries of religious, territory, ego's and national pride that creates so much friction. Let's face it, ask any Frenchman his opinion of the rest of Europe- then give it a German accent... ;)

Russia does have a very vested interest in Europe. It has been invaded repeatedly by 'them' throughout it's history. I'm sure they firmly believe no good comes from a strong Europe. That the OP jumped up so quickly to give advance cheers for an event that never happened but was high on Russia's wish list...

Just was odd...
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The currency was majorly opposed by the people when it was implemented. A poll prior to the euro implementation reflected that the majority of germans wanted nothing to do with it, yet it continued on regardless. My wife is german and I live in Germany, and from all accounts from her and her family and friends, when the euro was implemented, their buying power was cut in half almost overnight. Something that used to cost 2 deutsch marks costed 2 euro, while the exchange rate was almost 2 deutsch marks per 1 euro. This difference in price goes to the weaker nations, because as a common currency it is the direct equivalent of countries sharing a single bank account.

They're slowly starting to realize how ridiculous it is, but the politicians keep fighting it and making it worse out of pride. It's time for them to admit that they were wrong, and that the idea was stupid to begin with. A currency is supposed to be a direct reflection of a nation's economy. When you couple weak economies with strong ones then force them to have a common currency, the only two options are abandon said currency, or meld the countries into one country of sorts, forcing them to lose their national identity. The latter is what they're trying now, the EU is getting stronger and stronger, forcing the countries to conform to EU standards instead of country standards.

The further away you get from the people, the less effect the people have. I'd prefer instead of centralized power and economic planning like the EU has today, that these were accomplished at the country/state levels, where people can have an actual effect on their government.

And FYI, united europe has NOTHING to do with the euro currency.
 
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Rabid-
Like I said, I have a shooting buddy in Germany. He didn't say anything about the Mark being exchanged equally for Euros, more like 1.75 or so. We priced optics while in Cologne and found them equal to USofA prices, minus the VAT. Where we were stunned was in the UK where their pound made British goods twice as expensive as their equiv in the USofA.

The Euro SHOWS a great deal of the strength in a United Europe. It is second only to the greenback as an exchange and reserve currency. It's value of total currency in circulation is higher than the greenback. While the US initiated economic crisis has injured the Euro, it is fairing far better than the dollar, yen or Swiss Franc. It is used by approx 500 million people as either their currency or have their currency pegged to it. Without a common currency the Eurozone would not have this economic clout.

That the centralized system could use some fine tuning I won't dispute. I will however once again point to Early American history. Would our individual states have prospered as individual 'nations'? Isn't the USofA far better at guaranteeing individual freedom from foreign invaders than the individual states? Would the South have ever freed the slaves without the North's insistence?

Smaller doesn't equal more individual input. The rules that govern the meetings can make a city hall meeting far more draconian than a national election. given the economic and political turmoil I suspect there will be some disgruntled folks. But seems more fabrication of doomsayers than fact in this hot mess.
 
notquiteright said:
Rabid-
Like I said, I have a shooting buddy in Germany. He didn't say anything about the Mark being exchanged equally for Euros, more like 1.75 or so. We priced optics while in Cologne and found them equal to USofA prices, minus the VAT. Where we were stunned was in the UK where their pound made British goods twice as expensive as their equiv in the USofA.
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I didn't say that they were equally exchanged, I said that the number prices in the country stayed relatively the same, drastically reducing the purchasing power of german citizens in the process.

notquiteright said:
The Euro SHOWS a great deal of the strength in a United Europe. It is second only to the greenback as an exchange and reserve currency. It's value of total currency in circulation is higher than the greenback. While the US initiated economic crisis has injured the Euro, it is fairing far better than the dollar, yen or Swiss Franc. It is used by approx 500 million people as either their currency or have their currency pegged to it. Without a common currency the Eurozone would not have this economic clout.
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Have you kept up with the euro at all over the past 3 years? Every single day shows less and less strength. They are crumbling at the seams. I know this isn't a fair conversation because I'm a day trader and this is what I do.

Did you just say that the euro is doing better than the swiss franc? Do you realize that the swiss national bank had to put a ceiling on the franc because it was appreciating too far against the euro? (the swiss economy is largely based on exports to the eurozone). Even with this ceiling, the exchange rate has been sitting almost dead on the ceiling for over 6 months now, this is an extreme sign of strength from the swiss franc vs the euro.

notquiteright said:
That the centralized system could use some fine tuning I won't dispute. I will however once again point to Early American history. Would our individual states have prospered as individual 'nations'? Isn't the USofA far better at guaranteeing individual freedom from foreign invaders than the individual states? Would the South have ever freed the slaves without the North's insistence?
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The difference is that we're a sovereign country with a common set of values, culture and national pride. The euro countries are now giving up their invididual sovereignty to the EU government, instead of being able to decide things for themselves. They are losing their right to run their countries as their cultures permit.

notquiteright said:
Smaller doesn't equal more individual input. The rules that govern the meetings can make a city hall meeting far more draconian than a national election. given the economic and political turmoil I suspect there will be some disgruntled folks. But seems more fabrication of doomsayers than fact in this hot mess.
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You're missing the point entirely. You can not possibly think that any citizen can have any effect on the EU government vs their local governments. You don't know what it's like to live in europe, but I promise you, 95+% of europeans would tell you that they have drastically less power over the EU government than they do their local governments.


Here's an interesting thought experiment, would you be willing that the US joined the EU? That things of economic and social importance began to be debated and decided for us at an international level?
 
Rabid-
IF the number stays the same then defacto the exchange rate wasn't done at the official 1.75 but at 1 to 1. You can't keep the price of a kilo of cabbage at one euro from one mark and not say the exchange rate wasn't 1 for 1. That's not the euro or the EU's fault.

Funny you should mention time and paying attention to the Euro. I dug out my old passport, it shows me going through Frankfurt/Main in '03 and '06. Now I didn't look at cabbage but did look at the price of meals and those rifle/spotting scopes. (you know those germans, got to love their optics) I didn't see this overpriced concept like I did in England, '04 and '05. You guys must of had a hellova subsidy for your basic goods after the reunification, 'the economy' was pretty expensive back in the Mark days when I was stationed there, 5 marks for a pack of smokes at the Bahnhoff.

But don't take my casual observations on the Euro, it's value is tracked by any number of websites. It was soaring high in '08 as the dollar trembled. The high costs of the European safety net didn't cause the crisis- the huge investments by the private sector in tainted American mortgage based securities and the secondary shadow banks absorbing mortgages as collateral caused it. But conservative groups in Europe love the IMF coming along demanding the social safety net gets cut back while the financial sector gets a pass. (the IMF has a long history of this sort of austerity, hasn't worked yet for the people, has really worked for the private sector financial sector in the target nation ...)

Now about 'loss of power over the EU government'. Again I have a very conservative buddy who lives in Bornheim, and he comes to the USofA on a regular basis to shoot high power rifles at long range, ie he ain't no sissy liberal Eurotrash commie! I guess he sees the benefit of a combined 353 million people vs a cluster of much smaller states attempting to compete in the new global economy. I can't help but wonder who these people are who felt they had 'more power' at their state level but now don't at the EU level. Are they rather well connected folks who once the central control is internationalized they lose the ability to glad hand their representatives?

The argument you give is like saying Texans like their 'power' at the state level but hate being part of the USofA. They don't realize that combined with the other 49 they are stronger than being separate.

If I might rephrase what your German friends are actually saying- before the EU Germany was dominate in Europe but now must 'carry' weaker nations in the Union.

Not unlike the 'average' man in the mercantile North felt about having to divert money to support the frontier state's infrastructure expansion, or the South getting to count a slave as 3/5th of a citizen in Congress. Then again the South chaffed under import/export laws that limited their primary exports, cotton and tobacco and had to buy the North's protected textiles at a much higher price than those from England.

I guess my point it to compete in the global economy Europe must find a way to join together as an economic block. Some stronger nations may chafe at this, but not every state in this country is a Texas, (thank Gawd)
 
notquiteright said:
Rabid-
IF the number stays the same then defacto the exchange rate wasn't done at the official 1.75 but at 1 to 1. You can't keep the price of a kilo of cabbage at one euro from one mark and not say the exchange rate wasn't 1 for 1. That's not the euro or the EU's fault.

Funny you should mention time and paying attention to the Euro. I dug out my old passport, it shows me going through Frankfurt/Main in '03 and '06. Now I didn't look at cabbage but did look at the price of meals and those rifle/spotting scopes. (you know those germans, got to love their optics) I didn't see this overpriced concept like I did in England, '04 and '05. You guys must of had a hellova subsidy for your basic goods after the reunification, 'the economy' was pretty expensive back in the Mark days when I was stationed there, 5 marks for a pack of smokes at the Bahnhoff.

But don't take my casual observations on the Euro, it's value is tracked by any number of websites. It was soaring high in '08 as the dollar trembled. The high costs of the European safety net didn't cause the crisis- the huge investments by the private sector in tainted American mortgage based securities and the secondary shadow banks absorbing mortgages as collateral caused it. But conservative groups in Europe love the IMF coming along demanding the social safety net gets cut back while the financial sector gets a pass. (the IMF has a long history of this sort of austerity, hasn't worked yet for the people, has really worked for the private sector financial sector in the target nation ...)

Now about 'loss of power over the EU government'. Again I have a very conservative buddy who lives in Bornheim, and he comes to the USofA on a regular basis to shoot high power rifles at long range, ie he ain't no sissy liberal Eurotrash commie! I guess he sees the benefit of a combined 353 million people vs a cluster of much smaller states attempting to compete in the new global economy. I can't help but wonder who these people are who felt they had 'more power' at their state level but now don't at the EU level. Are they rather well connected folks who once the central control is internationalized they lose the ability to glad hand their representatives?

The argument you give is like saying Texans like their 'power' at the state level but hate being part of the USofA. They don't realize that combined with the other 49 they are stronger than being separate.

If I might rephrase what your German friends are actually saying- before the EU Germany was dominate in Europe but now must 'carry' weaker nations in the Union.

Not unlike the 'average' man in the mercantile North felt about having to divert money to support the frontier state's infrastructure expansion, or the South getting to count a slave as 3/5th of a citizen in Congress. Then again the South chaffed under import/export laws that limited their primary exports, cotton and tobacco and had to buy the North's protected textiles at a much higher price than those from England.

I guess my point it to compete in the global economy Europe must find a way to join together as an economic block. Some stronger nations may chafe at this, but not every state in this country is a Texas, (thank Gawd)
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I asked you an important question, and you ignored it:
"Here's an interesting thought experiment, would you be willing that the US joined the EU? That things of economic and social importance began to be debated and decided for us at an international level?"
 
Germany has benefited hugely from Euro membership since the "drag" of the less economically healthy members has kept the price of German exports artificially low where the DM would have been soaring.
 
Manc Skipper said:
Germany has benefited hugely from Euro membership since the "drag" of the less economically healthy members has kept the price of German exports artificially low where the DM would have been soaring.
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Which would also explain why they are fighting tooth a nail to preserve it. It would also, however, cast doubt on whether they are the best choice of people to be put in charge of developing the Greek economy.
 
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