Neo-Nazis Clash With Protesters

[ReverendHellh0und]

I don't think that he meant "bitter" in a negative context, though. I think "angry" would have been a good word to use. In fact, it probably would have been better as it wouldn't have been so ambiguous. In his comments he was mainly referring to people in small town's and his comments are very true for a lot of people in small towns. Of course, this isn't to say that all people in small towns are bitter and cling to guns, religion, etc. only out of their bitterness. Regardless, I don't think it's entirely fair to attack Obama's comments unless you are absolutely sure of the context in which they were used.

Prove this.

 

[jallman]

I don't think that he meant "bitter" in a negative context, though. I think "angry" would have been a good word to use. In fact, it probably would have been better as it wouldn't have been so ambiguous. In his comments he was mainly referring to people in small town's and his comments are very true for a lot of people in small towns. Of course, this isn't to say that all people in small towns are bitter and cling to guns, religion, etc. only out of their bitterness. Regardless, I don't think it's entirely fair to attack Obama's comments unless you are absolutely sure of the context in which they were used.

Well let's just break it down here:

You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton Administration and the Bush Administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are going to regenerate and they have not. And it's not surprising, then, they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations,

Now, I can't really diagram the sentence here, but what I see is a subject (they: people in small towns) followed by a descriptor (bitter) and then followed by a few subject/verbs actions which are very telling of BHO's thoughts on small town people:

They cling to guns and religion because they are bitter.
They have antipathy of people who are not like them (could he be saying they are racist here?) because they are bitter.
They are anti-immigrant (which is a bald faced lie because they are actually against ILLEGAL ALIENS) because they are bitter.
They are anti-trade because they are bitter.

It couldn't be that they have legitimate gripes like, I dunno, wishing to keep their 1st and 2nd Amendment rights and wanting secure borders, etc. :doh
Nah, it's just easier for BHO to dismiss them as bitter and therefore politically negligible.

And let's not overlook that last little quip he had to throw in there: it's all to explain their frustrations. To me, that speaks of a very low opinion of small town people; they obviously aren't intelligent enough to address the reasons they are upset so they go around creating boogey men to explain the reasons they are so bitter. :roll:

Yeah, I'm coming firmly down on one of two sides: Barack really isn't all that well spoken or Barack said EXACTLY what he meant to say. Either way, it's just more proof that this man should not be the next president of the US.

 

[Dr_Patrick]

Prove this.

Well, all I can speak of is from my experience. I grew up in a very small town and knew a lot of people in other small towns around the area and the comment was very true. I don't think of it as a negative thing, though.

 

[cascadian]

What I took away from BHO's comments was "If you don't agree with me, then you must be bitter and therefore defective."

FWIW, I don't think "bitter" is necessarily negative. Hell, I'm bitter when it comes to politics.

Obama's point was that they were skeptical of economic improvement which was his pitch to reach those voters. It's about voting priorities not agreement. That is they going to vote on those issues instead of economics because everyone promises economic improvements and they haven't delivered - therefore they are bitter and skeptical of Obama and those promising economic improvements.

I also think it's disingenous to say people want strong borders aren't often concerned about job loss or have other motivations besides security.

 

[Dr_Patrick]

Well let's just break it down here:



Now, I can't really diagram the sentence here, but what I see is a subject (they: people in small towns) followed by a descriptor (bitter) and then followed by a few subject/verbs actions which are very telling of BHO's thoughts on small town people:

They cling to guns and religion because they are bitter.
They have antipathy of people who are not like them (could he be saying they are racist here?) because they are bitter.
They are anti-immigrant (which is a bald faced lie because they are actually against ILLEGAL ALIENS) because they are bitter.
They are anti-trade because they are bitter.

It couldn't be that they have legitimate gripes like, I dunno, wishing to keep their 1st and 2nd Amendment rights and wanting secure borders, etc. :doh
Nah, it's just easier for BHO to dismiss them as bitter and therefore politically negligible.

And let's not overlook that last little quip he had to throw in there: it's all to explain their frustrations. To me, that speaks of a very low opinion of small town people; they obviously aren't intelligent enough to address the reasons they are upset so they go around creating boogey men to explain the reasons they are so bitter. :roll:

Yeah, I'm coming firmly down on one of two sides: Barack really isn't all that well spoken or Barack said EXACTLY what he meant to say. Either way, it's just more proof that this man should not be the next president of the US.

This is all speculation on your part, though. I agree that bitter was the wrong word to use and in fact Obama later apologized for putting it the way that he did. The word bitter can be interpreted as having negative or insulting connotations. This really just boils down to a difference of opinion. You took his words as insulting and I didn't.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

Well, all I can speak of is from my experience. I grew up in a very small town and knew a lot of people in other small towns around the area and the comment was very true. I don't think of it as a negative thing, though.

Wait you accuse jallman of speculation and this is your proof of "bitterness"?

I lived in several small towns from NM to CO and most small town folk I lived amongst preffered just to look after thier own and didn't seem bitter at all.

What are they bitter of exactly?

 

[cascadian]

What are they bitter of exactly?

In case Obama's remarks are still pertinent here:

"But the truth is, is that, our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there's not evidence of that in their daily lives. You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not."

They are bitter about economic conditions.

 

[jallman]

This is all speculation on your part, though. I agree that bitter was the wrong word to use and in fact Obama later apologized for putting it the way that he did. The word bitter can be interpreted as having negative or insulting connotations. This really just boils down to a difference of opinion. You took his words as insulting and I didn't.

How is this just speculation when the sentence states, in it's simplest terms:

They do _______ because they are bitter.


Not because they have concern, not because they have different political philosophies, not because they have he has yet to make his case for them but because they are bitter. That's not speculation. That's what the man said.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

In case Obama's remarks are still pertinent here:

"But the truth is, is that, our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there's not evidence of that in their daily lives. You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not."

They are bitter about economic conditions.

So they (stereotyping) cling to guns and god because "they" are bitter about economic conditions?


What is obama gonna do for these small town folk? :lol:

 

[jallman]

So they (stereotyping) cling to guns and god because "they" are bitter about economic conditions?


What is obama gonna do for these small town folk? :lol:

That's my whole point: I don't care that he called them bitter because they probably are. But to claim that this bitterness is the reason that they cling to their 1st and 2nd Amendment rights out of this bitterness is absurd and just plain wrong. It belies a very low opinion of these people.

 

[cascadian]

So they (stereotyping) cling to guns and god because "they" are bitter about economic conditions?

He's addressing what they believe government can do for them. The government hasn't brought them economic improvement, but it might bring them an anti-gay marriage bill or trade protections. These voters don't want to hear an economic message because they've heard it all before, hence they are bitter.

A lack of economic progress isn't going to form someone's opinion on gun rights, but it might affect what political messages they are willing to listen to.

Obama's saying these folks have good reason to be bitter.

What is obama gonna do for these small town folk?

That's the exactly attitude Obama is addressing.

 

[cascadian]

That's my whole point: I don't care that he called them bitter because they probably are. But to claim that this bitterness is the reason that they cling to their 1st and 2nd Amendment rights out of this bitterness is absurd and just plain wrong. It belies a very low opinion of these people.

I think Obama feels their bitterness actually comes from repeated failures of politicians to deliver. Yes it would be absurd to suggest that people suddenly become fond of their guns rights when things are bad economically, and maybe that should be a clue that's not what Obama meant.

He meant they are receptive to messages about gun rights, because they still think the government can deliver that. But the are bitter about messages of economic improvement and for good reason.

 

[jallman]

I think Obama feels their bitterness actually comes from repeated failures of politicians to deliver. Yes it would be absurd to suggest that people suddenly become fond of their guns rights when things are bad economically, and maybe that should be a clue that's not what Obama meant.

He meant they are receptive to messages about gun rights, because they still think the government can deliver that. But the are bitter about messages of economic improvement and for good reason.

That explanation does nothing toward explaining:

They _____ because they are bitter.

There is a subject, a verb/action, and a qualifier. It's simple English. If he didn't mean it, perhaps he shouldn't have said it.

 

[cascadian]

That explanation does nothing toward explaining:

They _____ because they are bitter.

There is a subject, a verb/action, and a qualifier. It's simple English. If he didn't mean it, perhaps he shouldn't have said it.

Actually that's not how it's phrased at all. "Bitter" is NOT connected to "because". It's part of a list of qualities these people possess.


""You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.""

 

[jallman]

Actually that's not how it's phrased at all. "Bitter" is NOT connected to "because". It's part of a list of qualities these people possess.


""You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.""

No. He prefaces a list with with bitter but, characteristic of spoken word versus written, does not formally separate the list from his initial thought, thus, when it was printed, there is a comma separating the "bitter" phrase from its objects. Nice try though.

 

[cascadian]

No. He prefaces a list with with bitter but, characteristic of spoken word versus written, does not formally separate the list from his initial thought, thus, when it was printed, there is a comma separating the "bitter" phrase from its objects. Nice try though.

Erm nope. That's what he meant and that's essentially how he explained what he meant afterwards.

He prefaces the list with "It's not surprising then" + list. You're decision to put "they get bitter" as part of the preface doesn't seem to have support from the speaker or the context.

If he meant what you thought, I'm sure he could have included a "so" to make that clear. "they are bitter so they cling to...."

However if you insist on being offended by what he didn't say, I can't stop you.

 

[jallman]

Erm nope. That's what he meant and that's essentially how he explained what he meant afterwards.

He prefaces the list with "It's not surprising then" + list. You're decision to put "they get bitter" as part of the preface doesn't seem to have support from the speaker or the context.

If he meant what you thought, I'm sure he could have included a "so" to make that clear. "they are bitter so they cling to...."

However if you insist on being offended by what he didn't say, I can't stop you.

It's right there in black and white with punctuation to prove it. If you insist on ignoring what the man did say, I can't stop you.

 

[jamesrage]

Today, Neo-Nazis got into fights with protesters who came to Washinton to denounce their march. This happened just one block from the Capitol building.

Sorry, but I have to say this. Those who protested the march, and started the melee, which was quickly broken up by the police, are at fault. The Neo-Nazis here in America are scumbags, but guess what? They have just as much Constitutional right to air their grievances to our government as everyone else, no matter how repugnant their message may be. This IS America, after all, isn't it?

So, I have a little message to the protesters - If you support Move On's right to free speech, but not the Neo-Nazis' right to protest peacefully, then you are just as hypocritical as the Neocons who you have been protesting against for almost 8 years. Take a good, hard look in the mirror, and tell me you aren't like them, to at least a small degree. If you still say you are not, then you are lying, not only to me, but to yourselves as well.

**DanaRhea puts on his flame proof suit**

Article is here.

 

[cascadian]

It's right there in black and white with punctuation to prove it.

How does the punctuation prove it? It punctuates well and makes more sense as the first of a list.

In fact if he meant what you think he meant, then Obama wasn't doing a good job of getting his idea across. He should have found some way to make it clear he wasn't just making a list. Like use using a "so" or "because".

 

[jallman]

How does the punctuation prove it? It punctuates well and makes more sense as the first of a list.

In fact if he meant what you think he meant, then Obama wasn't doing a good job of getting his idea across. He should have found some way to make it clear he wasn't just making a list. Like use using a "so" or "because".

See the above post about not wanting to acknowledge what he actually did say.

 

[cascadian]

See the above post about not wanting to acknowledge what he actually did say.

I don't see any explanation about why the punctution proves it. You simply assert it. Now you're refusing to back up you assertion with a "last word" post.

I can make them too, ya know.

 

[danarhea]

This seems to be issue with the first amendment.
The supreme court stated that hate speech is not protected speech - though it have not ruled on hateful protest it's not too far to picture that they would also rule that hateful protests are not protected right to protest.
Hence I would say no, they do not have as much right to protest as say those protesting for right to life or Intelligent Design nutters.

With all due respect, the Neo-Nazis were not preaching hate at their rally, although they have done it in other places, and I would agree with you that, where they do preach hate, it is not protected in some cases, but not all. The difference would be whether they were inciting others to commit hate crimes, or whether they were saying why they don't like certain groups.

However, in Washington, they were protesting immigration laws, which they have the right to do.

 

[jallman]

I don't see any explanation about why the punctution proves it. You simply assert it. Now you're refusing to back up you assertion with a "last word" post.

I can make them too, ya know.

I already gave my backup. You simply refused to accept it.

 

[cascadian]

I already gave my backup. You simply refused to accept it.

How could I explain my position without it looking like a simple refusal to you? I'm curious.

I countered your explanation and you simply stopped contributing. If you've said all you want to, that's your prerogative, but don't blame it in on me.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

He's addressing what they believe government can do for them. The government hasn't brought them economic improvement, but it might bring them an anti-gay marriage bill or trade protections. These voters don't want to hear an economic message because they've heard it all before, hence they are bitter.

A lack of economic progress isn't going to form someone's opinion on gun rights, but it might affect what political messages they are willing to listen to.

Obama's saying these folks have good reason to be bitter.
That's the exactly attitude Obama is addressing.

You know most small town folk are red staters right? They are not looking for the government to solve thier problems.