Need Guidance

[scourge99]

I've accepted your proposal. In fact, I spent the day investigating Mormonism. So far, I'm very impressed. I especially love the idea of having four wives (.....YES!!!!). What a beautiful concept. There's a Mormon church not far from the crib. Thanks for the recommendation.

Perhaps you should focus your attention on determining what is true and what is false rather than what you would prefer to be true and what you would prefer to be false.

 

[ElCid]

Perhaps you should focus your attention on determining what is true and what is false rather than what you would prefer to be true and what you would prefer to be false.

Hey........there's polygamy in the Bible, Scourge. The Mormons are simply living in strict accordance with it. Since they're a legit denomination, why can't I sign up? What's wrong with that? They're legit, and they practice, or at least tacitly endorse, polygamy. I like the idea. Seriously......I like it. What am I imagining to be true? Isn't the Bible correct?

 

[Goshin]

Hey........there's polygamy in the Bible, Scourge. The Mormons are simply living in strict accordance with it. Since they're a legit denomination, why can't I sign up? What's wrong with that? They're legit, and they practice, or at least tacitly endorse, polygamy. I like the idea. Seriously......I like it. What am I imagining to be true? Isn't the Bible correct?

Um... I'm pretty sure the modern Mormon church has renounced polygamy, and at any rate it is still illegal even if you're Mormon. Sorry, dude. :mrgreen:

 

[ElCid]

Um... I'm pretty sure the modern Mormon church has renounced polygamy, and at any rate it is still illegal even if you're Mormon. Sorry, dude. :mrgreen:

Not from what Mormons have told me. I spent the entire day talking to a small group of them. They spoke highly of it -- polygamy, that is. And what about that prophet, Warren Jeffs? He had numerous wives. They loved him.

 

[Goshin]

Not from what Mormons have told me. I spent the entire day talking to a small group of them. They spoke highly of it -- polygamy, that is. And what about that prophet, Warren Jeffs? He had numerous wives. They loved him.

You might want to watch that show about polygamy.... darn i forget the name of it. yeah it has its points, but it ain't all a bed o' roses...

Quote by a polygamist man: "You'd think with three wives you'd always have a bed you were welcome in.... but the truth is, if ONE of them is mad at you, they're ALL mad at you!" :lamo

 

[ElCid]

You might want to watch that show about polygamy.... darn i forget the name of it. yeah it has its points, but it ain't all a bed o' roses...
Quote by a polygamist man: "You'd think with three wives you'd always have a bed you were welcome in.... but the truth is, if ONE of them is mad at you, they're ALL mad at you!" :lamo

I can imagine. That actually could get hellish, couldn't it?

 

[scourge99]

Hey........there's polygamy in the Bible, Scourge.

I agree. There is also rape, genocide, murder, stoning, and homosexuality in the Bible as well. So what?

The Mormons are simply living in strict accordance with it.

I think you need to do more independent research in this area because you are wrong on more than one account.

Since they're a legit denomination, why can't I sign up?

I never said you couldn't.

They're legit, and they practice, or at least tacitly endorse, polygamy. I like the idea. Seriously......I like it.

Personally i have nothing against polygamy. What the FLDS practice, however, is tantamount to brain washing and child abuse. What they do is create a tight-knit society where members become dependent on. They cut off their children and believers from outside influence, ideas, and beliefs and thoroughly indoctrinate them. Its similar to other Christian sects such as Jehovah's Witnesses.

Even if members want to leave, the consequences are often to severe. One's job, friends, family, and everything are connected to the church and any attempt to go against the leadership or the society has dire repercussions.

Isn't the Bible correct?

That is for you to discover on your own.

 

[UtahBill]

Um... I'm pretty sure the modern Mormon church has renounced polygamy, and at any rate it is still illegal even if you're Mormon. Sorry, dude. :mrgreen:

True, only the FLDS, or Fundamental LDS, practice it. and they take a lot of heat for it. Do you want to live in what is essentially a commune?

 

[Geo Patric]

Are you still Catholic?

no, i have no religion.

geo.

 

[ElCid]

True, only the FLDS, or Fundamental LDS, practice it. and they take a lot of heat for it. Do you want to live in what is essentially a commune?

I changed my mind. That sounds potentially hazardous to one's sanity. No...........no FLDS for this kid. I'll keep looking.

 

[ElCid]

I agree. There is also rape, genocide, murder, stoning, and homosexuality in the Bible as well. So what? I think you need to do more independent research in this area because you are wrong on more than one account. I never said you couldn't. Personally i have nothing against polygamy. What the FLDS practice, however, is tantamount to brain washing and child abuse. What they do is create a tight-knit society where members become dependent on. They cut off their children and believers from outside influence, ideas, and beliefs and thoroughly indoctrinate them. Its similar to other Christian sects such as Jehovah's Witnesses. Even if members want to leave, the consequences are often to severe. One's job, friends, family, and everything are connected to the church and any attempt to go against the leadership or the society has dire repercussions.That is for you to discover on your own.

Well, I spent today talking, in depth, to a Born-Again Christian. He was intense, but impressive. He believes exclusively in what he reads in the Bible. He carries it with him everywhere, and reads it constantly. He knows it backward and forward. Actually, I was amazed. He quoted the thing as if he had written it. One quote after another rolled off his fiery tongue. His Bible was tabbed. He had glued a detailed, 'salvation-by-faith-alone' instructional verse-finder inside the covers. Every one of those verses was underlined in the text. He had obviously spent A LOT OF TIME on that Bible. My astonishment was all too obvious, I guess. He now wants me to be 'saved', and to attend his Bible-studies. I might, but I wonder: why are the vast majority of his quotes taken exclusively from the Pauline Letters? Could his approach place too much emphasis on salvation by faith, as opposed to salvation by faith and good works, which is what the Catholic Church and the Bible teach? Also, could he be living in contradiction to what he claims to believe? For instance, he quotes Paul, over and over again, on the topic of 'sola scriptura' (sole authority of scripture alone), yet he seems to deliberately ignore the Book of James, which is part of the Bible, and strongly promotes good works? How can he believe in 'sola scriptura', if he dismisses the parts of the Bible he doesn't like? It's all so very interesting. Thanks for the recommendations. I'll keep looking.........

P.S. Do you think I'm overlooking anything, at this point in my investigation?

 

[ElCid]

no, i have no religion.
geo.

Okay..............so the rituals didn't have a lasting effect on you, right?

 

[scourge99]

I might, but I wonder: why are the vast majority of his quotes taken exclusively from the Pauline Letters? Could his approach place too much emphasis on salvation by faith, as opposed to salvation by faith and good works, which is what the Catholic Church and the Bible teach?

I'm not a theologian or seminary graduate. Ask someone who is or ask the born-again directly.

Also, could he be living in contradiction to what he claims to believe?

Maybe, maybe not. Why would it matter?

For instance, he quotes Paul, over and over again, on the topic of 'sola scriptura' (sole authority of scripture alone), yet he seems to deliberately ignore the Book of James, which is part of the Bible, and strongly promotes good works? How can he believe in 'sola scriptura', if he dismisses the parts of the Bible he doesn't like? It's all so very interesting.

I'm not all that interested in Christian theology. Every sect of Christianity has their own theological quirks and differences. Some greater, some less than others. I usually shy away from those debate because most of the time the explanations are unverifiable. I avoid spending my time with claims and ideas that can only be supported by "trust me" or "its true because it is in my holy-book".

Thanks for the recommendations. I'll keep looking.........

P.S. Do you think I'm overlooking anything, at this point in my investigation?

Yes. Take a break and look into other religions besides Christianity. Look into Buddhism, Islam, Reformed Judaism (get your info from a Jew, not a Christian), Hinduism, Sikhism, and Jainism. Look into non-believer groups such as Humanism and Objectivism. Most importantly, look into what opposing groups have to say about the others and the rebuttals to those.

What criticism do Muslims have of Christianity? Christianity of atheists? and vice versa.

 

[ElCid]

I'm not a theologian or seminary graduate. Ask someone who is or ask the born-again directly.
Maybe, maybe not. Why would it matter? I'm not all that interested in Christian theology. Every sect of Christianity has their own theological quirks and differences. Some greater, some less than others. I usually shy away from those debate because most of the time the explanations are unverifiable. I avoid spending my time with claims and ideas that can only be supported by "trust me" or "its true because it is in my holy-book". Yes. Take a break and look into other religions besides Christianity. Look into Buddhism, Islam, Reformed Judaism (get your info from a Jew, not a Christian), Hinduism, Sikhism, and Jainism. Look into non-believer groups such as Humanism and Objectivism. Most importantly, look into what opposing groups have to say about the others and the rebuttals to those.
What criticism do Muslims have of Christianity? Christianity of atheists? and vice versa.

But my original request for assistance centered on Christian concerns. Why are you recommending non-Christian religions? And why can't you answer my theological questions about Christianity? Remember, you were the one who recommended further investigation, on my part. Here I am, conducting such an investigation, yet you've quite summarily dismissed Christianity, altogether, in response to my initial report. To begin with, I'm a Christian, and don't believe in other religions. Secondly, you don't seem to know much about Christianity. How then, can you 'guide' me, in these matters? Thirdly, what's to say that even if I did explore pagan faiths in depth, you wouldn't keep dismissing religion, outrightly, and re-directing me toward your atheism?

No, Scourge, it is I who must now guide YOU. Turn to Christ, and save yourself while you still can. A grand show-down is coming -- a great collision between Christ's New Chosen People, and the barbarian forces who clamor at the gates of Christian Civilization. In those desperate times, you will be forced to take sides. Believe me -- your atheism will not serve you well. You will discover, sadly, that without Jesus Christ, Man is an unredeemable savage.

 

[Geo Patric]

Okay..............so the rituals didn't have a lasting effect on you, right?

sure they did. as i said, i do no think that i ever really believed, as in accepted as a real life fact all the mysticism. but, i would think it obvious that the ritual DID have an effect.

geo.

 

[scourge99]

But my original request for assistance centered on Christian concerns. Why are you recommending non-Christian religions?

For the same reason high schools and universities require graduates to learn more than just their specialty by taking electives. Its called being "well rounded".

Do you think pastors, preachers, and priests are ignorant of such things?

And why can't you answer my theological questions about Christianity?

Because I don't spend my time pruning over the Bible trying to make all the pieces fit.

Remember, you were the one who recommended further investigation, on my part.

Because its patently obvious you are severely ignorant on religious matters perhaps with the exception of the sect you were raised within.

Here I am, conducting such an investigation, yet you've quite summarily dismissed Christianity, altogether, in response to my initial report.

No, I recommended that you educate yourself so as to actually understand differing positions and criticism of Christian beliefs and vice versa. It appears obvious you are unwilling or unable to do so.

To begin with, I'm a Christian, and don't believe in other religions.

I never asked you to convert to anything. I gave you the guidance on how to learn. Do you not understand that learning about other religions or beliefs does NOT entail believing them or converting?

Secondly, you don't seem to know much about Christianity.

And you base this on what, exactly? That I can't recite the bible word for word off the top of my head or because I can't explain every nuanced theological position?

How then, can you 'guide' me, in these matters?

I have no intention of being your teacher or guide. You requested advice and I gave it. Take it or leave it. I don't care.

Considering that it appears it was all just a ploy by you to preach, it appears my time offering advice in good faith was wasted.

Thirdly, what's to say that even if I did explore pagan faiths in depth, you wouldn't keep dismissing religion, outrightly, and re-directing me toward your atheism?

Way to go Sherlock, you figured it all out. This is all a clever plan to convert you to atheism. :roll:

No, Scourge, it is I who must now guide YOU. Turn to Christ, and save yourself while you still can. A grand show-down is coming -- a great collision between Christ's New Chosen People, and the barbarian forces who clamor at the gates of Christian Civilization. In those desperate times, you will be forced to take sides. Believe me -- your atheism will not serve you well. You will discover, sadly, that without Jesus Christ, Man is an unredeemable savage.

Oh, I see. Non-christians better convert because "you'll be sorry if you don't."

Is that why you believe ElCid? Because you were scared and intimidated into believing that jesus is coming and barbarian forces are "at the gates"?

And who are these "barbarian forces"? That sounds just silly.

 

[ElCid]

sure they did. as i said, i do no think that i ever really believed, as in accepted as a real life fact all the mysticism. but, i would think it obvious that the ritual DID have an effect.
geo.

What was the precise effect?

 

[ElCid]

REMOVING THE MASK

SCOURGE: For the same reason high schools and universities require graduates to learn more than just their specialty by taking electives. Its called being "well rounded".

But if you don't know much about Christianity, how can you be well-rounded?

SCOURGE: Do you think pastors, preachers, and priests are ignorant of such things?

Some are, some aren't. Many evangelical preachers have no formal education in theology or philosophy, or anything else, for that matter. They certainly don't know anything other than what they read in the Bible, literally.

SCOURGE: Because I don't spend my time pruning over the Bible trying to make all the pieces fit.

It's not just the Bible. It's also history, philosophy and different variations of theology.

SCOURGE: Because its patently obvious you are severely ignorant on religious matters perhaps with the exception of the sect you were raised within.

How would you know? You don't seem to have studied Christianity at all. Christianity accounts for roughly a third of the world's population, in terms of religion. You know nothing of it, except that you don't like it. You offer MATH as a proof of its invalidity. Strange.......Plato and Pythagoras considered math proof of the existence of the divine -- the existence of the ideal, in the abstract, yet available for practical imitation, however imperfect (e.g., Theory of Forms).

SCOURGE: No, I recommended that you educate yourself so as to actually understand differing positions and criticism of Christian beliefs and vice versa. It appears obvious you are unwilling or unable to do so.

What would some of those positions and criticisms be, Scourge? I doubt you actually know any. Even if you did, you don't know Christianity, so you can't even begin to make comparisons.

SCOURGE: I never asked you to convert to anything. I gave you the guidance on how to learn. Do you not understand that learning about other religions or beliefs does NOT entail believing them or converting?

The truth is you're a convinced atheist, and an ill-informed one, at that. You have a natural hostility for religion. Science is your religion, but Science can't be a religion. Science is only a set of tools, for human use. Science is devoid of ethics and morality.

SCOURGE: And you base this on what, exactly? That I can't recite the bible word for word off the top of my head or because I can't explain every nuanced theological position?

Because you know NONE of them. You despise Christianity, and therefore, you've never even looked into it. The fact you think the sum total of Christian thought is the Bible alone, indicates you know pathetically little. Did you even take Western Civilization?

SCOURGE: I have no intention of being your teacher or guide. You requested advice and I gave it. Take it or leave it. I don't care.

Taking advice from an atheist is like putting a loaded revolver to your head, spiritually speaking. You're not recommending religious investigation. You're recommending atheism, but taking the long route. I reject your game.

SCOURGE: Considering that it appears it was all just a ploy by you to preach, it appears my time offering advice in good faith was wasted.

'Good faith'? Those are hardly the words I would use to describe an atheist. What 'faith' do you possess, in the first place?

SCOURGE: Way to go Sherlock, you figured it all out. This is all a clever plan to convert you to atheism.

I will never worship Science. I appreciate it, but it isn't God. Science is a gift from God.

SCOURGE: Oh, I see. Non-christians better convert because "you'll be sorry if you don't."

I can imagine the agony of the tortures of Hell. They aren't pleasant thoughts.

SCOURGE: Is that why you believe ElCid? Because you were scared and intimidated into believing that jesus is coming and barbarian forces are "at the gates"?

AD 476.............a year that will live forever in infamy.......


SCOURGE: And who are these "barbarian forces"? That sounds just silly.

Non-Christian heathen, aka: the citizens of G.U.S. (Globalized Underworld Society). Are you one?

 

[NGNM85]

Science is devoid of ethics and morality.

This is completely bogus. Of course, that seems to be a recurring theme.

 

[maquiscat]

As a Christian (one who has denounced his ties to any organized "church"), I am finding you, El Cid, to be one of the stumbling blocks that Paul warns about. At no point has Scourge made any statement that indicates his despising Christianity. There is a major difference in not believing in it and despising it. I do not believe in the Islamic religion, but that does not mean I despise it.

All of his assertions have been about study, not only of what the various Christians sects have to say but what other religions have to say. By studying that outside of Christianity, you can develop a better contextual basis for Christianity. Nor has he ever asked you to believe in anything nor disbelieve in anything. One can presume that, as a Christian, you believe in Satan. Such a belief does not constitute worship. Nor would study or even belief in any other religion or religious tenet.

Always keep in mind that Satan's best weapon against the children of God is the church. For proof of that you need to go no further than the Crusades (what they turned into not what they started as), the Inquisition, and pedophile priest.

 

[ElCid]

This is completely bogus. Of course, that seems to be a recurring theme.

Why is it bogus? Where is Science's ethical and moral code?

 

[ElCid]

As a Christian (one who has denounced his ties to any organized "church"), I am finding you, El Cid, to be one of the stumbling blocks that Paul warns about. At no point has Scourge made any statement that indicates his despising Christianity. There is a major difference in not believing in it and despising it. I do not believe in the Islamic religion, but that does not mean I despise it. All of his assertions have been about study, not only of what the various Christians sects have to say but what other religions have to say. By studying that outside of Christianity, you can develop a better contextual basis for Christianity. Nor has he ever asked you to believe in anything nor disbelieve in anything. One can presume that, as a Christian, you believe in Satan. Such a belief does not constitute worship. Nor would study or even belief in any other religion or religious tenet. Always keep in mind that Satan's best weapon against the children of God is the church. For proof of that you need to go no further than the Crusades (what they turned into not what they started as), the Inquisition, and pedophile priest.

I have shadowed Scourge elsewhere. My commentary isn't limited to what he has said here. Moreover, what was wrong with the Crusades and the Inquisition? And what's so bad about pedophile priests? There are pedophiles in every walk of life. I bet there are some in your line of work. What do you do? I'll uncover some for you.

 

[Geo Patric]

Why is it bogus? Where is Science's ethical and moral code?

where is Christianity's moral code? that there IS such thing is utterly preposterous. That Holy Shield you employ and others like it fluttered above the genocide of millions of Muslims and Jews and millions more that simply did not support the fabricated "morality" of an oppressive religion.

how is it that YOU can claim credit for a morality for which YOU are not responsible. hell, sheep do that.

secular morality is based on an individual appraisal of good and a conscious and deliberate choice to act in accordance with what is good. If that is not good enough for anyone's fanciful deity, that deity can kiss my ass.

geo.

 

[ElCid]

"where is Christianity's moral code?"

You can start with Judaism's Torah, Talmud, and/or Bible, and then progress to the Christian Bible. If you're interested in denominational analysis of Judeo-Christian morality and ethics, you can read a whole host of important works. I just glanced through a copy of John Calvin's Institutes. Wow....what a tome.

"that there IS such thing is utterly preposterous. That Holy Shield you employ and others like it fluttered above the genocide of millions of Muslims and Jews and millions more that simply did not support the fabricated "morality" of an oppressive religion."

We never killed anyone we weren't called to kill. Also, by killing and torturing God's enemies, we did them a favor, spiritually. We cleansed them. We purified them, and thus made them more acceptable to God, in the Afterlife.


"how is it that YOU can claim credit for a morality for which YOU are not responsible. hell, sheep do that."

I speak of THE JESUS OF HISTORY, He who came upon the Jews, met with rejection, and then chose Western Man, as His New Elect Nation. He led that nation to greatness.


"secular morality is based on an individual appraisal of good and a conscious and deliberate choice to act in accordance with what is good. If that is not good enough for anyone's fanciful deity, that deity can kiss my ass."

Secularism in America is doctrinally founded on Enlightenment thought, especially its concept of Natural Rights. Accordingly, all people are presumed free and equal in nature, and have inalienable rights of life, liberty and property. But that's AMERICAN secularism -- America, the single most Enlightenment-based country on Earth. Secularism can stand for anything, anywhere else. It isn't automatically moral or ethical. It has to be founded on some semblance of a philosophy or religious ethos. American secularism is very well informed by Judeo-Christian ethics and morality.

"geo."

Cid

 

[Geo Patric]

You can start with Judaism's Torah, Talmud

i COULD but it would not be a very nice thing to do since christians ignore it, in general aside from the charming psalms. The moral law therein is not to the liking of chrisitans.

We never killed anyone we weren't called to kill.

beautiful and horrific. YOUR god CALLS you to slaughter your own fellows. and you have the balls to compare YOUR morality to mine? get thee behind.

Also, by killing and torturing God's enemies, we did them a favor, spiritually. We cleansed them. We purified them, and thus made them more acceptable to God, in the Afterlife.

this is unquestionably the sickest thing I have ever heard a modern christian say. but, at least you are honest.

I speak of THE JESUS OF HISTORY

no you do not. the historical Jesus cannot be your god. HE was an observant Jew. to HIM, the Torah and its laws were sacrosanct, immutable and eternal. And his insistence that we love our enemies would not have allowed him to condone the crusades or the inquisition or any of the evil that has been perpretrated in his name over the centuries. he would have shrunk in horror had he known that you would attribute such viciousness to him.

Secularism in America is . . .

however you define it, it is superior to the horror of a religious faith you preach.

geo.