NATO seeks troops to deter Russia on eastern flank

[Tigerace117]

And he was right to think that because Dubya idiotically linked Iraq to 9-11. Qaddafi WAS radical in the past but he wasn't any longer and was running a government that was only nominally religious. You're basing 20 year old information to make modern decisions when society had drastically changed. No wonder we keep making the same boneheaded mistakes decade after decade: it is because of people who think like you getting into government.

I hate to break it to you, but Libya was never "only nominally religious" under Gaddafi, especially since a huge portion of his propaganda had to do with Libya's Islamic identity.

Saddam Hussein was a moron and did everything in his power to make us think he was connected to the attacks.

 

[Lord of Planar]

And he was right to think that because Dubya idiotically linked Iraq to 9-11. Qaddafi WAS radical in the past but he wasn't any longer and was running a government that was only nominally religious. You're basing 20 year old information to make modern decisions when society had drastically changed. No wonder we keep making the same boneheaded mistakes decade after decade: it is because of people who think like you getting into government.

So true.

When people cannot learn, and understand that others can learn from the past, they are doomed to make the same boneheaded mistakes.

In the late 70's, we helped oust the sitting leaders of Iraq and Iran, which were both becoming westernized. Look what followed. Several instances after that, all ending in worse leaders filling the gaps.

 

[Tigerace117]

Whatever.

Do you think Libya is better off today than six years ago?

That's what is important.

I'll have to wait and see who wins the civil war before anyone can really make a decision about that.

 

[Lord of Planar]

I hate to break it to you, but Libya was never "only nominally religious" under Gaddafi, especially since a huge portion of his propaganda had to do with Libya's Islamic identity.

Saddam Hussein was a moron and did everything in his power to make us think he was connected to the attacks.

He didn't allow Sharia law.

 

[Lord of Planar]

I'll have to wait and see who wins the civil war before anyone can really make a decision about that.

There is no light at the end of that long tunnel. This war will be ongoing, maybe for decades.

Are the common people better off now?

Do you really like war that much? It was a pretty stable country. But no. The radicals would fight in the streets, and Qaddafi would put them to death. When killed in fighting, their buddies would take their weapons. Afterall, weapons are valuable! Then the news would report "innocent civilians killed by Qaddafi." However, look at those past report closely. No women and children among the dead from the firefights. You would only find boys old enough to be trained to fire a rifle, and men.

These weren't massacres. They were criminals of Libya. They didn't wear uniforms, hence easily lied about saying they were civilians.

 

[Tigerace117]

He didn't allow Sharia law.

However, when he came to power he promised to reinstate it. And Libya's legal code was based in an interpretation of Sharia under Gaddafi.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Libya#Post-revolutionary_law

 

[Lord of Planar]

However, when he came to power he promised to reinstate it. And Libya's legal code was based in an interpretation of Sharia under Gaddafi.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Libya#Post-revolutionary_law

I will correct myself in that he refused to allow the radical interpretation of Sharia law. Those revolting, wanted the return of the radical form, and we helped them.

You must be proud of that!

 

[Tigerace117]

There is no light at the end of that long tunnel. This war will be ongoing, maybe for decades.

Are the common people better off now?

Do you really like war that much? It was a pretty stable country. But no. The radicals would fight in the streets, and Qaddafi would put them to death. When killed in fighting, their buddies would take their weapons. Afterall, weapons are valuable! Then the news would report "innocent civilians killed by Qaddafi." However, look at those past report closely. No women and children among the dead from the firefights. You would only find boys old enough to be trained to fire a rifle, and men.

These weren't massacres. They were criminals of Libya. They didn't wear uniforms, hence easily lied about saying they were civilians.

By radicals, of course, you mean pro democratic fighters seeking to oust a bloodthirsty tyrant from power and set up a democracy. But oh wait, I forgot--- Arabs can't have democracy.

By the same definition you are using here, the French Resistance in World War Two would also be considered "criminals".

 

[Tigerace117]

I will correct myself in that he refused to allow the radical interpretation of Sharia law. Those revolting, wanted the return of the radical form, and we helped them.

You must be proud of that!

I'm proud of the fact that people like you who'd rather brutal dictatorships stay in power indefinitely failed or achieve their goals.

And Gaddafi's interpretation was so much milder-- oh wait. The testimony of women still wasn't allowed. How progressive.

 

[Lord of Planar]

By radicals, of course, you mean pro democratic fighters seeking to oust a bloodthirsty tyrant from power and set up a democracy. But oh wait, I forgot--- Arabs can't have democracy.

Lies.

They know how to pull the heartstrings of liberals.

These pro democratic fighters are not seeking free elections of the people.

By the same definition you are using here, the French Resistance in World War Two would also be considered "criminals".

No...

Completely different.

Sorry you are blind to the truth.

Oh...

Libya was tolerant of Christians under Qaddafi. Now they are dragged into the streets and executed.

Do you think that's an improvement?

 

[Tigerace117]

Lies.

They know how to pull the heartstrings of liberals.

These pro democratic fighters are not seeking free elections of the people.


No...

Completely different.

Sorry you are blind to the truth.

Oh...

Libya was tolerant of Christians under Qaddafi. Now they are dragged into the streets and executed.

Do you think that's an improvement?

Yes, they were pro democratic and seeking free elections. Which, since Gaddafi knew full well he'd lose, cracked down on.

Christians weren't treated especially well in Libya either. After all, Libya under Gaddafi was an Islamic country, with the emphasis on "Islamic".

 

[Lord of Planar]

I'm proud of the fact that people like you who'd rather brutal dictatorships stay in power indefinitely failed or achieve their goals.

And Gaddafi's interpretation was so much milder-- oh wait. The testimony of women still wasn't allowed. How progressive.

How authoritarian to want to impose our values on other cultures...

You are so driven by your authoritarian beliefs, you believe wars should be fought.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Yes, they were pro democratic and seeking free elections. Which, since Gaddafi knew full well he'd lose, cracked down on.

Christians weren't treated especially well in Libya either. After all, Libya under Gaddafi was an Islamic country, with the emphasis on "Islamic".

Well, no. However they were not hunted and persecuted like now.

 

[JANFU]

"Super authoritarian"

Because I want to keep dicatators from slaughtering their own people, I'm "super authoritarian"? Say it ain't so! :roll:

Libya was not becoming a "great nation". They'd been under the thumb of Gaddafi for years without any say in how the country was run. They had to deal with the consequences of Gaddafi's support for terrorists for years. People finally decided enough was enough.

"Justice" in which the families of those opposed to your regime are in danger is no justice at all.

So how well did regime change work?

 

[Tigerace117]

How authoritarian to want to impose our values on other cultures...

You are so driven by your authoritarian beliefs, you believe wars should be fought.

I still find it rather humorous you seem utterly convinced Arabs aren't capable of democracy.

 

[Tigerace117]

So how well did regime change work?

Well, let's see. There's still a civil war, just like there was as Gaddafi clung to power. ISIS is limited to a single city and pretty much a non factor in that war. The inevitable purges which would have ensued had Gaddafi lost have been adverted. Just like any other country emerging after years of tolitarian rule, there's a big of work to be done before it caught a up with the rest of the world.

 

[JANFU]

Yes, they were pro democratic and seeking free elections. Which, since Gaddafi knew full well he'd lose, cracked down on.

Christians weren't treated especially well in Libya either. After all, Libya under Gaddafi was an Islamic country, with the emphasis on "Islamic".

I gave you a list of ongoing genocides to mass murder that are occurring in Africa.
You backed away from Darfur. From one point arguing the US should stop genocide, but when it came to Darfur, a sudden walk back? Why is that.

https://www.dosomething.org/facts/11-facts-about-darfur

 

[Tigerace117]

I gave you a list of ongoing genocides to mass murder that are occurring in Africa.
You backed away from Darfur. From one point arguing the US should stop genocide, but when it came to Darfur, a sudden walk back? Why is that.

https://www.dosomething.org/facts/11-facts-about-darfur

Because US intervention in Sudan hasn't happened whereas intervention in Libya did.

And there's not much point in going into an alternate history.

 

[JANFU]

Well, let's see. There's still a civil war, just like there was as Gaddafi clung to power. ISIS is limited to a single city and pretty much a non factor in that war. The inevitable purges which would have ensued had Gaddafi lost have been adverted. Just like any other country emerging after years of tolitarian rule, there's a big of work to be done before it caught a up with the rest of the world.

ISIS foothold, the civil war should never have happened, weapons by the hundreds of tons spread thru Africa, look at Mali as one country that ended up having a well supplied Islamist terror org fighting with Libyan weapons

Mali rebels used Libyan weapons - report | defenceWeb

Rebel fighters in Mali made extensive use of weapons originally from Libyan arsenals during 2012/13, a joint investigation by The Small Arms Survey and Conflict Armament Research has found.

In a new report, they note the rebellion in particularly the northern areas of Mali differed in scale and intensity to previous Tuareg rebellions in the same region.

“This,” the report notes, “has been attributed to an outpouring of weapons, ammunition and related materiel from the 2011 Libyan civil war.

Iraq a freaking mess. AStan, same but much worse and mostly controlled by the Taliban. Over 4 trillion on these 2 wars and hundreds of thousands dead. How well does you attitude of invading another country to stop 1 thing turn out?

Oh yes, 20,000 Manpads went astray in Libya.

http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/fileadmin/docs/G-Issue-briefs/SAS-SANA-IB2-Missing-Missiles.pdf

Now think how close the EU is. Then think how easy they are to smuggle. Then think if a plane or 2 is blown up on approach or takeoff?

 

[JANFU]

Because US intervention in Sudan hasn't happened whereas intervention in Libya did.

And there's not much point in going into an alternate history.

Sudans Presdient was on the wear crime list. Chased by the US pressing other countries to arrest him. Then bingo he is now a US all on the war on terror.
You are so hyped on putting troops on the ground, knowing little of what the repercussions are, unfamiliar with their culture, power struggles, and you think this will instill US-Western values in the local populace. But hell no, you are all in favor of military intervention.
The Military is not into nation building, they really suck at it.
Look to Iraq and AStan
Brush up on your history.
You keep failing and flailing with your responses.

 

[Tigerace117]

ISIS foothold, the civil war should never have happened, weapons by the hundreds of tons spread thru Africa, look at Mali as one country that ended up having a well supplied Islamist terror org fighting with Libyan weapons

Mali rebels used Libyan weapons - report | defenceWeb


Iraq a freaking mess. AStan, same but much worse and mostly controlled by the Taliban. Over 4 trillion on these 2 wars and hundreds of thousands dead. How well does you attitude of invading another country to stop 1 thing turn out?

Oh yes, 20,000 Manpads went astray in Libya.

http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/fileadmin/docs/G-Issue-briefs/SAS-SANA-IB2-Missing-Missiles.pdf

Now think how close the EU is. Then think how easy they are to smuggle. Then think if a plane or 2 is blown up on approach or takeoff?

Of course there were Libyan weapons in country. Gaddafi's Tuareg mercs took off heading south after his forces were defeated and ended up melting into the general mess down there.

Progress is slowly being made in Iraq. The Taliban is holed up in the mountains and countryside, but as long as we stay there's next to no chance they'll ever take power.

 

[JANFU]

Of course there were Libyan weapons in country. Gaddafi's Tuareg mercs took off heading south after his forces were defeated and ended up melting into the general mess down there.

Progress is slowly being made in Iraq. The Taliban is holed up in the mountains and countryside, but as long as we stay there's next to no chance they'll ever take power.

Wrong again.

 

[Lord of Planar]

I still find it rather humorous you seem utterly convinced Arabs aren't capable of democracy.

There is too much corruption over there. The majority o9f the people are perfectly capable of a democracy. There are just too many extremist forces out their, and we let most of them out! They control the people with fear, and fair elections will never happen as long as we help the worse of the lot.

 

[JANFU]

I still find it rather humorous you seem utterly convinced Arabs aren't capable of democracy.

Not what he has been posting
Did it work in Iraq, Libya or AStan?

 

[JANFU]

There is too much corruption over there. The majority o9f the people are perfectly capable of a democracy. There are just too many extremist forces out their, and we let most of them out! They control the people with fear, and fair elections will never happen as long as we help the worse of the lot.

IIRC Tunisia is the only one on a slow path to an inclusive society