NATO says it will not appease Russia with 'second class' allies as meeting looms

[anatta]

NATO opposes genocide, a form of which was being practiced in Kosovo, hence the moral supranational NATO intervention against Serbia.
Russia not so much.
Russia hardly at all in fact

good for Russia. it didnt participate in the bombing of Libya or the regime change based on a pack of lies
that Qadaffi was "bombing civilians"
Russia does not have the blood of 10 years of civil war there on it's hands

 

[Tangmo]

It's so wild to read.
Russia has never denied or hushed up the help of the Allies in World War II. You can ask any citizen of Russia about this in the most remote and God-forsaken village, he knows perfectly well about Lend-Lease... this is actually a school curriculum, basic.
I do not know where you are relaying this lie from... but what you write is absolutely not true.
There is no policy in Russia that the USSR single-handedly defeated Germany, there is a position that the USSR made a decisive contribution to the victory.

Tass as presented below seems to like going out of its way to minimize American Lend-Lease to Russia beginning in 1940 which was a year and a half before the US was thrust into WW 2.

My own impression of Lend-Lease is that the US tends to overstate its impact while the Soviet Union -- and now the KGB Putin's Russia -- downplays the US contribution to the Russian effort in WW 2. As to your statements in the here and now, you simply say LL is a part of the Russian school curriculum and that every single Russian knows of it. Beyond that however you say nothing of LL and what the post war generations can know of its impact.

Here however is how Tass presented it in a piece it published last year based on an article evaluating LL that appeared in Izvestia, as translated....


"This year [2021] marks 80 years since the start of cooperation between the US and the USSR within the Lend-Lease program. In recent years, American experts and some Russian historians have pointed out that the Soviet Union would not have been able to deal with Nazi aggression without American help, branding the Lend-Lease program the real weapon of victory. However, experts with the Russian Military Historical Society disproved this notion to Izvestia, pointing out that the Soviet Army won all the key battles of the war using its own equipment, without American aid.


"The Lend-Lease program supplied weapons, equipment, fuel, raw materials and food. US historian Albert Weeks referred to the Lend-Lease program as "Russia’s life-saver" in his book on the topic: [that] over 92.7% of railroad equipment in the USSR was produced with the aid of Lend-Lease, which included 1,911 locomotives and 11,200 rail cars. Mikhail Myagkov, Scientific Director with the Russian Military Historical Society, disagreed with this position, noting that it is "immoral" to say that the USSR would not have been able to win without the US. A historian with the society Nikita Buranov points out that the aid of the allies was significant, however, it cannot be said that it played a key role in the defeat of Hitler. Anastas Mikoyan, who was in charge of organizing the transportation of food and supplies to the Red Army during WWII, said that the Americans put our army on good wheels, but we would have won without them. "Yes, perhaps we would have fought longer, but we would have won," the expert told Izvestia. He noted, however, that in some areas, America’s aid to the USSR was significant indeed, but it was more in the area of trains, boots, aluminum, gunpowder, and food rather than tanks and planes. It was impossible for the Soviet Union to organize production of those items quickly, as the lion’s share of industrial facilities for the production of those materials was on the occupied territories, the historian stressed."

Press review: Did Lend-Lease help the USSR beat Hitler and Russia rolls out Sputnik Light

Top stories from the Russian press on Friday, May 7th

tass.com

Most weeks I make time to read in translation Tass, RT, Sputnik, while ignoring Putin's Izvestia which his cronies have turned upside down into a tabloid from a broadsheet while axing three-quarters of its staff. My education and experience in journalism enables me to be relatively positive about Tass, ie, it's the most straightforward and balanced among the bunch. Dare I say Tass would be the NYT of Russian journalism, although I'd likely have to make apologies to the NYT ha. RT is somewhat tolerable while Sputnik is even less tolerable than the New York Post.

Even though English is your second language (or perhaps your third language) your failure to discuss how LL is presented in the Russian school curriculum and in the Russian MSM leaves me wanting. What I do know however is that you use an internet tactic that is also the favorite of the armband right in the USA, ie, deny, deny, deny while pronouncing and declaring that the other guy knows more about nothing than anyone you've ever met.

 

[Tangmo]

Russians are fine human beings. Even homeless Russian vets. I will take a homeless Russian vet anytime over a Stepan Banderas clone.

As I've found out, you are untethered.

 

[Jredbaron96]

I’m not arguing the Kaiser stays on the throne (although I think the abdication was a terrible thing historically

I can't imagine why, seeing as the Kaiser can be regarded as one of the most ineffective and incompetent rules in modern history. It was his fault Germany was in the place it was anyway.

I’m simply arguing that minus American troops on the western Front Germany doesn’t “lose”

The loss of American troops won't save Germany from starvation though, which will cripple the Kaiserreich regardless of the situation on the battlefield. The French and British quite literally just have to wait and not commit any egregious strategic blunders.

No government would agree to Versailles type agreement unless there was no other choice.

In this case I doubt there would be a coherent Germany left. More likely civil war amid the collapse of German society between starvation and revolution.

 

[Tangmo]

good for Russia. it didnt participate in the bombing of Libya or the regime change based on a pack of lies
that Qadaffi was "bombing civilians"
Russia does not have the blood of 10 years of civil war there on it's hands

Your post reminds me of the guy police arrested for handing out leaflets in Red Square.

At the station the cop noticed the leaflets were blank so he asked the citizen why he was handing out blank leaflets.

"Why say anything when everybody already knows what's going on" is what guy said.

Pretty much everyone knows, yeah.

 

[Fabiusbile]

Here however is how Tass presented it in a piece it

Dare I say Tass would be the NYT of Russian journalism

In my opinion, you answered yourself in your own polemic... modern journalism, any, left, right, Russian, Chinese... for a long time and very much discredited herself. The Russian media space and the agenda within Russia are colossally more than you can read in TASS, Sputnik and RT, therefore it is extremely stupid to draw conclusions based on the media.

 

[Fabiusbile]

What I do know however is that you use an internet tactic that is also the favorite of the armband right in the USA, ie, deny, deny, deny while pronouncing and declaring that the other guy knows more about nothing than anyone you've ever met.

It seems to me the most objective tactic... the opinion of an eyewitness to the events. I live in Russia, I have been to Ukraine, and when it comes to these countries, my personal experience, which is not based on the media, still means something.
I'm trying to explain to you that there is not only what you see in the media.

 

[Tangmo]

In my opinion, you answered yourself in your own polemic... modern journalism, any, left, right, Russian, Chinese... for a long time and very much discredited herself. The Russian media space and the agenda within Russia are colossally more than you can read in TASS, Sputnik and RT, therefore it is extremely stupid to draw conclusions based on the media.

I never said otherwise so there's no need to work yourself up in such ways as you are doing.

I'd say based on just your posts to this thread and topic you're a very defensive and insecure guy, IMHO.

While I was very recently in China advising an industrial export group I met a lot of various Russians visiting regularly on buying trips. I met a lot of visiting American buyers too but that's beside my point here. Your guyz were very comfortable interacting with the Chinese some of whom spoke apparently excellent Russian, the local deputy mayor and Party guy for economic development in particular who was also fluent in English and that I got along with very well myself.

But when it came to the Russians even shaking hands with me and for those visiting Russians who knew some English they were practically shitting their pants right there in front of me. So what izzit with you guys and Americans? You seem to duck into open doorways when you see us coming. Kindly advise thx. I'm open to hearing you on this for sure.

 

[Tangmo]

It seems to me the most objective tactic... the opinion of an eyewitness to the events. I live in Russia, I have been to Ukraine, and when it comes to these countries, my personal experience, which is not based on the media, still means something.
I'm trying to explain to you that there is not only what you see in the media.

I see you like to state the obvious concerning media.

It's also a time proven truism that three eyewitnesses can see three different thingys.

In Crimea though everyone saw little green men -- everyone saw the identical thingys.

Which has put people in eastern Europe on the lookout and I can't say as I blame 'em for being vigilant and ready. Just in case of course.

 

[Roadvirus]

The Russians had already fought the Nazis to a standstill prior to D-Day and were turning them back along the battle line.

Stalingrad was the turning point. From there, it was all down hill for Germany.

 

[Juin]

As I've found out, you are untethered.

You are the one tethered to Russia's Nord Stream 2 pipeline. You are not Russian. Russian gas does not belong to you. Russians and Germans can do business with each other if they chose to do so. It is astounding that you post reams of pages over a matter that does not concern you

 

[anatta]

Your post reminds me of the guy police arrested for handing out leaflets in Red Square.
At the station the cop noticed the leaflets were blank so he asked the citizen why he was handing out blank leaflets.
"Why say anything when everybody already knows what's going on" is what guy said.
Pretty much everyone knows, yeah.

one of these days you might make a cohernt argument over my posts
I still have no idea what "annexation" you were going on about

all this is true:

anatta said:


good for Russia. it didnt participate in the bombing of Libya or the regime change based on a pack of lies
that Qadaffi was "bombing civilians"
Russia does not have the blood of 10 years of civil war there on it's hands

 

[anatta]

You are the one tethered to Russia's Nord Stream 2 pipeline. You are not Russian. Russian gas does not belong to you. Russians and Germans can do business with each other if they chose to do so. It is astounding that you post reams of pages over a matter that does not concern you

or the USA .. what gives us the right to interfere in German /Russian contracts??

 

[Tangmo]

You are the one tethered to Russia's Nord Stream 2 pipeline. You are not Russian. Russian gas does not belong to you. Russians and Germans can do business with each other if they chose to do so. It is astounding that you post reams of pages over a matter that does not concern you

You are ignoring or dismissing the NATO alliance, the Cold War, WW 2, WW I, trade, commerce, investments, not to mention core values of society, government, politics, civilization, arts and literature and so on.

The reason US sanctions against NS2 worked and worked immediately is because so many European firms doing the work have billions and billions of bucks doing work in the United States and USD doing work for them. American banks shut out these giant maritime corporations such as Allseas in Switzerland and it's a huge hit to 'em. So they bailed by the morning after the first round of sanctions in December, 2019, Bailed for good they did.

So you simply make one untethered post after another, that's all.

Cubical by cubical, your latest obsessive compulsion being the Banderas guy in Ukraine who I'd never heard of until you posted his name to this thread....incessantly.

 

[Tangmo]

one of these days you might make a cohernt argument over my posts
I still have no idea what "annexation" you were going on about

all this is true:
good for Russia. it didnt participate in the bombing of Libya or the regime change based on a pack of lies
that Qadaffi was "bombing civilians"
Russia does not have the blood of 10 years of civil war there on it's hands

You guyz need a vaccine that deals with being untethered.



Then get one that immunizes against hypocrisy and self righteousness....

Most of what you see is the result of the Second Chechen War. The Russians in laying siege to Grozny employed massed heavy artillery, aerial bombardment, concentrated rocket and missile fire, big-bore direct gun fire from tanks and tube anti-tank artillery. The Russian were also not hesitant to use all manner of fuel-air-explosives and thermobaric bombs. Putin the man without a soul cracked the egg with the proverbial sledgehammer. We see the results.


That ought to keep you guys busy for a while.

 

[Juin]

You are ignoring or dismissing the NATO alliance, the Cold War, WW 2, WW I, trade, commerce, investments, not to mention core values of society, government, politics, civilization, arts and literature and so on.

The reason US sanctions against NS2 worked and worked immediately is because so many European firms doing the work have billions and billions of bucks doing work in the United States and USD doing work for them. American banks shut out these giant maritime corporations such as Allseas in Switzerland and it's a huge hit to 'em. So they bailed by the morning after the first round of sanctions in December, 2019, Bailed for good they did.

So you simply make one untethered post after another, that's all.

Cubical by cubical, your latest obsessive compulsion being the Banderas guy in Ukraine who I'd never heard of until you posted his name to this thread....incessantly.

You are NOT Russian. And from what I have read from your posts your views of Russia and Russians are despicable. Why are you obsessed with Russian gas? Is Russia forcing you to buy their gas? For someone who hates Russian and Russians you are awfully obsessed with what belongs to them. I dont think you are German either, at least your posts dont suggest that, yet you are obsessed with who they chose to do business with. Dont you find that odd?????

 

[Juin]

or the USA .. what gives us the right to interfere in German /Russian contracts??

Can you imagine Germany telling the US not to buy Russian oil??? The US actually buys oil from Russia. Huge amounts too. Some sources say Russia may be second top supplier. Go Figure

The U.S. Imports Record Share Of Russian Oil Despite Tensions​

By Tsvetana Paraskova - Mar 24, 2021, 9:00 AM CDT
Join Our Community
U.S. refiners have turned to Russian oil and petroleum products to fill the gap that sanctioned Venezuelan crude and drastically reduced OPEC shipments have left in U.S. imports, despite the energy standoff between the United States and Russia.
In 2020, the U.S. imported more oil and refined products from Russian than from Saudi Arabia, with Russia’s share of American oil exports at a record-high 7 percent, Bloomberg News has estimated based on customs and EIA data.
Russia mostly displaced the market previously held by Venezuela—now unable to sell its heavy oil to U.S. refiners because of the American sanctions on Nicolas Maduro’s regime

The U.S. Imports Record Share Of Russian Oil Despite Tensions | OilPrice.com

U.S. refiners have turned to Russian oil and petroleum products to fill the gap that sanctioned Venezuelan crude and drastically reduced OPEC shipments have left in U.S. imports, despite the energy standoff between the United States and Russia

oilprice.com

 

[anatta]

You guyz need a vaccine that deals with being untethered.



Then get one that immunizes against hypocrisy and self righteousness....

Most of what you see is the result of the Second Chechen War. The Russians in laying siege to Grozny employed massed heavy artillery, aerial bombardment, concentrated rocket and missile fire, big-bore direct gun fire from tanks and tube anti-tank artillery. The Russian were also not hesitant to use all manner of fuel-air-explosives and thermobaric bombs. Putin the man without a soul cracked the egg with the proverbial sledgehammer. We see the results.


That ought to keep you guys busy for a while.

and what did we do to Iraq? Vietnam? we didn't need but bombs and Tomahawks against Libya
what happened? They all turned to shit. We armed the "non-seculatists" in Syria, then the jihadists stole their weapons

Enough of the Cold War 2. I dont GAF what Russia does on it's borders, -i DO care about not getting involved.

 

[anatta]

Can you imagine Germany telling the US not to buy Russian oil??? The US actually buys oil from Russia. Huge amounts too. Some sources say Russia may be second top supplier. Go Figure

The U.S. Imports Record Share Of Russian Oil Despite Tensions​

By Tsvetana Paraskova - Mar 24, 2021, 9:00 AM CDT
Join Our Community
U.S. refiners have turned to Russian oil and petroleum products to fill the gap that sanctioned Venezuelan crude and drastically reduced OPEC shipments have left in U.S. imports, despite the energy standoff between the United States and Russia.
In 2020, the U.S. imported more oil and refined products from Russian than from Saudi Arabia, with Russia’s share of American oil exports at a record-high 7 percent, Bloomberg News has estimated based on customs and EIA data.
Russia mostly displaced the market previously held by Venezuela—now unable to sell its heavy oil to U.S. refiners because of the American sanctions on Nicolas Maduro’s regime

The U.S. Imports Record Share Of Russian Oil Despite Tensions | OilPrice.com

U.S. refiners have turned to Russian oil and petroleum products to fill the gap that sanctioned Venezuelan crude and drastically reduced OPEC shipments have left in U.S. imports, despite the energy standoff between the United States and Russia

oilprice.com

Cold War 2 madness

 

[Tangmo]

You are NOT Russian. And from what I have read from your posts your views of Russia and Russians are despicable. Why are you obsessed with Russian gas? Is Russia forcing you to buy their gas? For someone who hates Russian and Russians you are awfully obsessed with what belongs to them. I dont think you are German either, at least your posts dont suggest that, yet you are obsessed with who they chose to do business with. Dont you find that odd?????

The Russo-German Geostrategic Axis of Energy is against Europe, EU, NATO, USA. Which is why America is involved prominently in your otherwise and deliberately obscure gas pipeline that Putin & Merkel tried but failed to slide in under the geopolitical radar.

Putin is actively failing right now in his present campaign of energy blackmail against Europe.

Putin's hand was forced to begin his energy blackmail sooner rather than later because the time had come for the German energy regulators to step in and be counted. The regulators in Berlin executed two major actions against the pipeline: they suspended consideration then they extended the suspension from roughly two months to six months, ie, from January 8th to H2 of this year.

As the German new vice chancellor and energy minister Robert Habeck said the other day, only two countries across Europe have gone all in on NS2, and they are Germany & Austria. Indeed the EU Parliament voted a Resolution in January a year ago , 580-52, to terminate NS2 immediately and for good.

The whole of these recent radical developments against the pipeline is why Biden lifted the sanctions in May. Even though Biden lifting the sanctions made possible the Kremlin completing the pipeline to landfall in Germany, lifting the US sanctions handed off the matter of killing NS2 to the regulators in Germany and then, in succession, the EU Commission in Brussels that will have the final word.

Ironically however, the regulators killing the pipeline silently does nothing to stop Putin in Ukraine given Putin must know by now he's all but lost his pet project no matter what he does against Ukraine or doesn't do there.

 

[Tangmo]

Cold War 2 madness

Putin doesn't dare try to blackmail the USA using oil.

Europeans on the other hand are the people Putin has always had his sights set on to energy blackmail.

Given the Cold War, WW I and WW 2 the USA is not standing by or afar from this one centered on The Russo-German NS2 pipeline and Ukraine.

Indeed, because it's Germany again, this time with Russia. Poland calls NS2 the new Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

 

[Tangmo]

and what did we do to Iraq? Vietnam? we didn't need but bombs and Tomahawks against Libya
what happened? They all turned to shit. We armed the "non-seculatists" in Syria, then the jihadists stole their weapons

Enough of the Cold War 2. I dont GAF what Russia does on it's borders, -i DO care about not getting involved.

Then disinvolve yourself and leave it to the professionals.

 

[Juin]

The Russo-German Geostrategic Axis of Energy is against Europe, EU, NATO, USA. Which is why America is involved prominently in your otherwise and deliberately obscure gas pipeline that Putin & Merkel tried but failed to slide in under the geopolitical radar.

Maybe you should take on the Russo-American Geostrategic Axis of Energy. While you have been busy penning endless lamentations on Nord Stream 2 America has been guzzling on Russian oil. Uncle Sam has been sucking on Putin's teats. And wont let go.

Putin is actively failing right now in his present campaign of energy blackmail against Europe.

Poland, Ukraine, and the three Baltic midgets do not constitute Europe.

Putin's hand was forced to begin his energy blackmail sooner rather than later because the time had come for the German energy regulators to step in and be counted. The regulators in Berlin executed two major actions against the pipeline: they suspended consideration then they extended the suspension from roughly two months to six months, ie, from January 8th to H2 of this year.

dude, work started on Nord Stream 2 years ago. Before that there was Nord Stream 1. And there is also the pipelines to the South. And a pipeline to China. And LNG from Arctic coming online. While you are barking at Nord Stream 2 gas business is booming for Putin

As the German new vice chancellor and energy minister Robert Habeck said the other day, only two countries across Europe have gone all in on NS2, and they are Germany & Austria. Indeed the EU Parliament voted a Resolution in January a year ago , 580-52, to terminate NS2 immediately and for good.

The whole of these recent radical developments against the pipeline is why Biden lifted the sanctions in May. Even though Biden lifting the sanctions made possible the Kremlin completing the pipeline to landfall in Germany, lifting the US sanctions handed off the matter of killing NS2 to the regulators in Germany and then, in succession, the EU Commission in Brussels that will have the final word.

Ironically however, the regulators killing the pipeline silently does nothing to stop Putin in Ukraine given Putin must know by now he's all but lost his pet project no matter what he does against Ukraine or doesn't do there.

There will be no invasion of Ukraine in the near future. That is because Putin has to chose between the German cash cow and the good for nothing Ukraine. Germany is Europe. Germany has cash, cash which Putin needs. Russia stands to benefit a lot by allowing the Germans to manage things. Germany needs its gas and will have its gas. Germans did business with Soviets, why not with Putin.

 

[Juks]

NATO says it will not appease Russia with 'second class' allies as meeting looms

NATO’s secretary general rejected any option to establish "second-class" alliances ahead of the meeting with Russia next week as the Kremlin continues its military aggression along the Ukrainian border.

www.foxnews.com

In other words, "Russia: Get bent"

You do know he is talking about Sweden and Finland? His neighboring countries (Jens Stoltenberg is Norwegian) Those are the 2 countries that Putin has mentioned. It is not just that Putin wants to take membership of the table, he also wants to ban any corporation between the 2 countries and NATO and ban al mutual trainings for the future.


An Russian general appeared on Russian television about a month ago with a hypothetical plan to take Gotland (a Swedish island)

 

[anatta]

Then disinvolve yourself and leave it to the professionals.

The "professionals" got us into a Cold War 2 that isnt as likely nuclear war as CW-1 but with NATO expansion and shenanigans
have increased the possibility of low scale conflict or worse between east and west.
The "professionals" got us into an unwinnable endless engagement in Afghan that was even more costly then Iraq-
an equally unwinnable endless engagement (standing up pro-west democracy gov't)

The professionals get us into costly deadly wars that sap Americas best and weaken our geopolitical reach.
The bug out from Afghan left us blind and unable to even see terrorism much less hit them "over the horizon"
From a war on terror p.o.v. -Iraq and Afghan were failures