NATO says it will not appease Russia with 'second class' allies as meeting looms

[Toggle Almendro]

Putin has changed the borders of Europe by force for the first time since World War II.
He's annexing which is what Hitler did.

I'm no Putin fan, but NATO stole Kosovo from Serbia long before Russia stole territory from Georgia and Ukraine.

NATO opposes genocide, a form of which was being practiced in Kosovo, hence the moral supranational NATO intervention against Serbia.

There was no genocide being practiced in Kosovo.

And the war in Kosovo was already years in the past when NATO stole it from Serbia.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

Just think how awful our lives would be if Lithuania fell.

We will defend all NATO counties, including the Baltics, with nuclear weapons if necessary.

How did that war benefit Americans?

The Afghan war benefited us by helping to destroy the people responsible for 9/11.

The Afghan war doesn’t really count, firstly it wasn’t a legal war because congress didn’t declare it, the attack was not carried out by state forces of Afghanistan, etc.

It was 100% legal. We have every right to defend ourselves.

No one is trying to reconsistute the USSR. Russia is trying to show the lines of it's own interests. That's what leads to conflicts but that's the policy. To be fair, Russia was not the initiator of the confrontation. Putin dreamed to be part of the West. But Russia was politely told to f off. -)

Invading other countries makes Russia the initiator.

I find it deeply disturbing how so many people are hell-bent on getting us into a military confrontation with Russia. Doing so would create death and destruction that we haven't seen in our lifetimes and has the potential to go nuclear. It truly boggles the mind how so many people are okay with this.

I do not know of anyone planning for such a military confrontation unless Russia invades the EU.

If Russia invades the EU, military confrontation is appropriate.

If Russia is excluded from SWIFT... even you will feel it... if your Western media didn't get to you, I'm talking about yesterday's press conference of the Russian Foreign Ministry after the talks, the Kremlin makes it clear that such actions will be regarded as an economic blockade, which means a declaration of war.
The time when the West treated Russia as a subordinate country is over... even with all my dislike for Putin, the hypocrisy of the West even tired me.
You consider it normal to threaten economic damage to my country... so accept the threat of war as a normal response. Your politicians threaten to ruin my country, not Putin and the oligarchs, they will not go over salt, bread and water, they threaten to ruin my people... so be prepared for the consequences of such threats.

If Russia wants war, we have the nukes to provide them with war.

 

[AmNat]

We will defend all NATO counties, including the Baltics, with nuclear weapons if necessary.

It's easy to be a chickenhawk in Michigan. Let me know when you deploy to Lithuania.

The Afghan war benefited us by helping to destroy the people responsible for 9/11.

Where was Bin Laden killed again?

 

[Tangmo]

the mujahideen were largely ineffective until we funded them and gave them Stingers -and Ukraine now is getting more NATO quality weapons. agreed on the Resistance as well.

I'm wondering if Putin is going to tip the balance and go into eastern Ukraine on a limited scale.
I've been dismissing the idea as too costly to putin -but there are reports of Russian false flag ops by our CIA
Or it could be the usual CIA attempt to frame Russia (institutional hate for Russia) for reprisals
Still... something is going on.....

While Ukraine takes Putin 100% seriously allied intelligence public statements are that he's unsure, was unsure from the outset and remains unsure. FWIW my own risk assessment made from the seat of my pants over here is that if Putin is unsure he's always been leaning to GO.

And that in the final analysis leaning GO is a GO.

The KGB Putin has the Cold War Brinkmanship I remember so well in his bones. Take it to the brink then grab the final best offer and run with it to a hero's welcome at home. Both sides did brinkmanship throughout the Cold War even though neither side went over the brink, to include the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962 when Khruschev backed off once he saw JFK the fatalist was seriously about to GO (bone chilling as the moment of realization was for everyone).

Putin has a different notion of brinkmanship. It includes to GO in much lesser situations only and not in big ones. Putin hitting Georgia, Chechnya, Crimea, Donbas has long since made clear Putin's idea of brinkmanship includes a GO but only in situations, circumstances, context that are not globe shattering. Ukraine is something of a big deal yet it isn't going to shatter the peace in Europe or globally. It's just not Poland in 1939 or anything like it.

Putin is well known in NATO for using his military to get to where he wants to go diplomatically and in other respects without ever firing a shot. He's also well known for going in with all guns blazing but only in isolated situations that don't threaten anyone else either directly or imminently. Ukraine not being in NATO fits the bill. NATO's concerns about Putin down the road post Ukraine are, well, down the road and can be addressed if and when the time comes.

 

[anatta]

No. People like Putin are the reason why we are back in a cold war.
International waters.
That's because his security needs aren't legit.Rightly so.
s not in a corner anywhere other than in his own imagination.
His red lines are not legit.
His invasions of Ukraine and Georgia are expansions outside his territory.

you hit just about all the talking points.
Jake Sullivan says there s a "contingent of Russians" operating in Ukraine under Russian government authority.
They do this all the time. makes the charges without anyway to verify their claims

**** Sullivan:
Biden's top security aide in February 2013 after Clinton stepped down as Secretary of State.[13] In those posts, he played a role in shaping U.S. foreign policy towards Libya, Syria, and Myanmar.[9]

 

[Juin]

True plus there will be a post invasion Ukrainian Resistance to any occupation or annexation of any parts of Ukraine.

I notice that missing in your draft are ethnic Russians in Ukraine. Are they, in your scenario, going to join Stepan Banderas battalions to fight the Russian Federation Armies? Of course not, ethnic Russians already put up a residence to Poroshenko's panzers back in 2014.

And if I may refresh your memory, when back in 2014 Putin's little green men flipped Crimea a whole bunch of Ukrainian soldiers, ethnic Russians I imagine, immediately joined the Russian Federation Army and Navy. I imagine Ukraine must have purged its armed forces of all ethnic Russians, no?

Ukraine resistance fighters will be well trained and well armed; well funded and led, supplied, maintained, sustained; fierce and determined.

They should make mincemeat of shoeless Russian soldiers, no? You mentioned elsewhere that Russians cannot afford shoes. Makes me wonder how Putin hopes to better your "well trained and well armed; well funded yada yada yada" Ukrainian soldiers.

The Ukraine resistance will hit Russian forces, facilities to include transportation, camps and collaborators and will hit hard, fast, often. The Resistance will create a holy hell for Russian forces on the ground 24/7. While Putin won't care his generals and his troops will care a lot.

Gosh Tangmo, you are on a roll. With such soldiers Zelensky should be in Moscow before spring.

Russia in Afghanistan is a good model btw but that horror for the Russian forces will be small by comparison and contrast.

Ukraine was also in Afghanistan. Ukraine was Russia's partner in crime in that adventure. That bit appears to be missing in your rendition.

After all, Ukraine is right there in Europe instead of far off in southeast Asia. The weaponry and equipment is another dimension from back then and there also. Any invasion will be costly to the Russian forces but the post invasion resistance will and over time be scalding and unrelenting.

Stop kidding yourself. What's likely gonna happen is Germany getting saddled with thousands of Ukrainian soldiers heading to Germany as refugees. The smarter ones in the Ukrainian Army are already taking beginner courses in German. I won't be surprised if Zelensky is taking night courses in German, preparatory to a new career on German tv. Zelensky rose to fame in Ukraine with his Servant of the People show. In Germany he will star in a new show called Servant of the Volk.

 

[anatta]

I notice that missing in draft are ethnic Russians in Ukraine. Are they, in your scenario, going to join Stepan Banderas battalions to fight the Russian Federation Armies? Of course not, ethnic Russians already put up a residence to Poroshenko's panzers back in 2014.



Stop kidding yourself. What's likely gonna happen is Germany getting saddled with thousands of Ukrainian soldiers heading to Germany as refugees. The smarter ones in the Ukrainian Army are already taking beginner courses in German. I won't be surprised if Zelensky is taking night courses in German, preparatory to a new career on German tv. Zelensky rose to fame in Ukraine with his Servant of the People show. In Germany he will star in a new show called Servant of the Volk.

correct viewpoint:
there is 1 "Ukraine " on the map but 2 competing factions - a divided Ukraine where Russian autonomy has to happen
or the war in Donbass really wont end without a major battle,, and then the refugees

 

[Tangmo]

I'm no Putin fan, but NATO stole Kosovo from Serbia long before Russia stole territory from Georgia and Ukraine.



There was no genocide being practiced in Kosovo.

And the war in Kosovo was already years in the past when NATO stole it from Serbia.

Your post is a gust of wind, ie, it came and it went while leaving nothing with us except a few head covers.

The reply equivalent to your post is for me to say NATO didn't steal anything and to leave at that. Oh, and to say yes there was.

Saves some time and work don't it. Meanwhile however nobody gets nuthin to go by either way.

So I'll still be here when you get back. Talk to you then maybe.

 

[Tangmo]

I notice that missing in your draft are ethnic Russians in Ukraine. Are they, in your scenario, going to join Stepan Banderas battalions to fight the Russian Federation Armies? Of course not, ethnic Russians already put up a residence to Poroshenko's panzers back in 2014.

And if I may refresh your memory, when back in 2014 Putin's little green men flipped Crimea a whole bunch of Ukrainian soldiers, ethnic Russians I imagine, immediately joined the Russian Federation Army and Navy. I imagine Ukraine must have purged its armed forces of all ethnic Russians, no?





They should make mincemeat of shoeless Russian soldiers, no? You mentioned elsewhere that Russians cannot afford shoes. Makes me wonder how Putin hopes to better your "well trained and well armed; well funded yada yada yada" Ukrainian soldiers.






Gosh Tangmo, you are on a roll. With such soldiers Zelensky should be in Moscow before spring.





Ukraine was also in Afghanistan. Ukraine was Russia's partner in crime in that adventure. That bit appears to be missing in your rendition.





Stop kidding yourself. What's likely gonna happen is Germany getting saddled with thousands of Ukrainian soldiers heading to Germany as refugees. The smarter ones in the Ukrainian Army are already taking beginner courses in German. I won't be surprised if Zelensky is taking night courses in German, preparatory to a new career on German tv. Zelensky rose to fame in Ukraine with his Servant of the People show. In Germany he will star in a new show called Servant of the Volk.

A Ukraine guerilla resistance is being formed and organized as you guyz sit making your smug remarks.

Indeed you guyz have been partying in your posts for a couple of weeks now.

In anticipation of Putin's Great Day for himself and for Russia the Motherwhatever.

Yet while we know how it would turn out we'll still have to find out how it goes afterward.

 

[Fabiusbile]

If Russia wants

Imagine, Russia also has nuclear weapons.

 

[Fabiusbile]

Putin hitting Georgia, Chechnya, Crimea, Donbas

Excellent knowledge of Russian history... Did I put the buckets? Okay...
I liked Chechnya better. Not only that, it's actually a Russian region... but okay, separatism, they wanted independence... but the first Chechen company began when Putin was not in big politics at all, he was an assistant to the governor of St. Petersburg, Mr. Sobchak. And the second Chechen campaign began when he was already in the Kremlin, but still very far from the leadership of the country... that is, I do not know how it works for you.
The same Georgian war, this is the history of separatism of the Abkhazians and Ossetians, where Georgia gained independence at the collapse of the USSR, and for some reason the two peoples could not, and even before the collapse of the USSR, an ethnic conflict with military actions began there, to which neither the future Russia nor Putin had anything to do, and there was no business in the late 80s and early 90s before Transcaucasia, there were too many problems of their own.

 

[Fabiusbile]

A Ukraine guerilla resistance is being formed and organized as you guyz sit making your smug remarks.

Let me ask))) and who are they resisting? Zelensky?

And if without irony and sarcasm, there is a lot going on in Ukraine right now, I'm not talking about the part where the war is going on. There are very serious problems with crime and law and order, it's sad. The country is filled with weapons from the zone of military conflict and this is a problem, a serious problem.

 

[VySky]

Flush the bombers lol

 

[Juks]

While Ukraine takes Putin 100% seriously allied intelligence public statements are that he's unsure, was unsure from the outset and remains unsure. FWIW my own risk assessment made from the seat of my pants over here is that if Putin is unsure he's always been leaning to GO.

And that in the final analysis leaning GO is a GO.

You are spot on, but you are forgetting to take the UK and the Scandinavian countries into the equation. And this is also Putin's "mistake" when he is making demands that NATO should not be allowed to take in new members as Finland and Sweden if they choice to apply. Sweden (my country) is in many way, the key to the outcome and consequences for Russia to invade the Ukraine.

Swedes want the option open but does not really want to join NATO. This is due to our history, where we managed to stay out of both WW1 and WW2 by staying “neutral” and on the surface cooperating with both sides. While Europe was in rumbles after WW2, Sweden was untouched and thriving (as was the US to a big extent). This has very much contributed to our development. Unlike you, we al know that (from the prime minister to the cleaning lady). (I believe Putin know this as well, but he likes to assert his power and domination on his surroundings (as do the US and China…) and we do irritate him lmost as much as Taiwan irritates China).

After the wall was teared down and the cold war ended, most European countries disarmed and reduced funding for the military. So did we. We know that if Russia choice to invade Gotland (which is an Island that has a strategic position and logically the next step after the Ukraine). We wouldn’t be able to hold it for more than a couple of hours at best. (this is really the big difference between Sweden and Finland. In Finland the memory is how they (almost)beat Russia before (twice) and I believe that from the Prime minister to the cleaning lady, they think they have a chance)

So it is safe to say that Sweden is using everything they have to make sure that the crisis in Ukraine is not only taken serious, but is considered to be the dealbreaker. And even if the US looks at us as a small, non-pertinent country (Biden very much so…), that is not the entire truth. We hold the “big brother” position in Scandinavia. So even if Denmark and Norway love to criticize us, compete with us and claim that they are much better and successful than us (which they in some ways are), at the end of the day they do love and listen to us more than they do to each other. We are also the connecting link to Finland and the very glue into that we call ourselves “the Scandinavian countries” and claim (and feel) that we have the same culture. We also hold a strategic and influential role in the EU especially after the UK left.

It did take some skills to play both sides during the wars, and that skill we developed into a Swedish diplomacy tradition. So while we send our incompetent foreign minister (she is a clown) to the US, emphasizing our smallness and unimportance, our prime minister is visiting with NATO:s general secretary, Finland, Denmark, Germany, and France in order to hype the Ukraine situation. We form alliance with Poland in this issue (while we do dislike everything else that is happening in Poland, in this, that is the country in Europe that looks as serious on this as we do and they have connections we don’t, like with Hungary). And we are waiting (hoping) for Boris Johnson to be replaced so that we can get them onboard faster as well. UK used to be Sweden’s biggest ally in the EU, but Boris is really indifferent to any and al cooperation’s with EU countries, though leaving him alone, he will think it is a dealbreaker when Russia invades Ukraine, especially since Norway (Not a EU country, but the holder of the general secretary position in NATO) think so . Those countries and allies will then by the share numbers convince the US that this is a dealbreaker.

 

[Tangmo]

Imagine, Russia also has nuclear weapons.

Russian leaders are smarter than that, going all the way back to Stalin who even though he was a barbarian still knew better. They have found better ways as it were. Even when the USSR was going lights out in 1991 there wasn't any of what would have been desperation to even the score, ie, take the West out with 'em.

So it's a good thing the USSR Fanbois of the present times weren't CCCP officials of that time who had the nuclear codes. Indeed, having the codes in your hand right there on your card would be sobering. It would be radically different from a reckless Russia Fanboi junior officer in the Red Army talking about Russia having nuclear warheads.

Fanbois talking Your Beloved Russia having nuclear weapons is a measure of their desperation over developments at a given time, that's all. And as we can see, the present is such a time.

 

[Fabiusbile]

Fanbois talking Your Beloved Russia having nuclear weapons is a measure of their desperation over developments at a given time, that's all. And as we can see, the present is such a time.

Unfortunately, your whole tirade with a wall of text is absolutely meaningless. You wrote so much in response to my response to the person who first started threatening that the United States has nuclear weapons (so forward it all to him), but what I replied was that Russia also has these weapons, parity.

 

[Tangmo]

Excellent knowledge of Russian history... Did I put the buckets? Okay...
I liked Chechnya better. Not only that, it's actually a Russian region... but okay, separatism, they wanted independence... but the first Chechen company began when Putin was not in big politics at all, he was an assistant to the governor of St. Petersburg, Mr. Sobchak. And the second Chechen campaign began when he was already in the Kremlin, but still very far from the leadership of the country... that is, I do not know how it works for you.
The same Georgian war, this is the history of separatism of the Abkhazians and Ossetians, where Georgia gained independence at the collapse of the USSR, and for some reason the two peoples could not, and even before the collapse of the USSR, an ethnic conflict with military actions began there, to which neither the future Russia nor Putin had anything to do, and there was no business in the late 80s and early 90s before Transcaucasia, there were too many problems of their own.

KGB and FSB are institutional to Russia since 1917, along with GRU and other Russian alphabet soup security institutions of the state throughout most of the 20th century and now into the first quarter of the 21st. Putin is instilled with their institutional codes, values, expectations whatever his status, position, department, rank. He's as guilty as the rest of 'em who came before him and since.

 

[Tangmo]

Unfortunately, your whole tirade with a wall of text is absolutely meaningless. You wrote so much in response to my response to the person who first started threatening that the United States has nuclear weapons (so forward it all to him), but what I replied was that Russia also has these weapons, parity.

Birds of a feather.

 

[Fabiusbile]

KGB and FSB are institutional to Russia since 1917, along with GRU and other Russian alphabet soup security institutions of the state throughout most of the 20th century and now into the first quarter of the 21st. Putin is instilled with their institutional codes, values, expectations whatever his status, position, department, rank. He's as guilty as the rest of 'em who came before him and since.

You might as well blame my underage daughters for all the sins.
I tell you that at the beginning of the first Chechen company, he was not at all the head of any services in the country and at that time did not work in the KGB and FSB, and at the beginning of the second Chechen company he was not yet the head of the country.
You are trying to give out your ignorance of the subject and the history of the issue under the sauce "He is a communist! he is to blame for everything!!" - my dear, we are not in the square, your propaganda rhetoric is for... does not work. We're just having a conversation, keep it simple.

 

[Tangmo]

Let me ask))) and who are they resisting? Zelensky?

You guys are definitely untethered.

I've never seen so many dumb rhetorical questions.

I'll be generous by attributing to the fact English is not your first/native language.

 

[Fabiusbile]

Birds of a feather.

I'm afraid my modest knowledge of English does not apply to American aphorisms, I have not studied your lexical culture - simply, I did not understand you.

 

[Fabiusbile]

You guys are definitely untethered.

I've never seen so many dumb rhetorical questions.

I'm afraid my message was a little harder to understand... the creation of a "detachment of partisans" in Ukraine is a funny and pointless thing. Russia does not need Ukraine for nothing, especially its western part, as we say left-bank Ukraine, it is hemorrhoids and it is not needed. Therefore, against whom the partisans are going to fight, the question is interesting. But in right-bank Ukraine and especially in the Donbas, somehow there are no partisans... what is it all of a sudden?

 

[Tangmo]

You might as well blame my underage daughters for all the sins.
I tell you that at the beginning of the first Chechen company, he was not at all the head of any services in the country and at that time did not work in the KGB and FSB, and at the beginning of the second Chechen company he was not yet the head of the country.
You are trying to give out your ignorance of the subject and the history of the issue under the sauce "He is a communist! he is to blame for everything!!" - my dear, we are not in the square, your propaganda rhetoric is for... does not work. We're just having a conversation, keep it simple.

Produce evidence or proof Putin in his position inside KGB and the Kremlin opposed the massive take no prisoners bombardments of Grozny in 1999. At that time Putin was on the cusp of succeeding Yeltsen. Putin is an institutionalist if you don't know, simultaneously a dedicated Russian and CCCP. Throw in Czarist and you've got a hat trick. You don't know? Putin says the name Vladimir goes all the way back to the original Russians, the Rus.

 

[Tangmo]

I'm afraid my modest knowledge of English does not apply to American aphorisms, I have not studied your lexical culture - simply, I did not understand you.

No problem.

I haven't any problem understanding your English.

You express higher concepts well and your vocabulary is agile. This is very important in the matters our class of society discusses across nationalities. I look forward to a further engagement with you in your excellent English. The bunch of you assigned to DP.

 

[Fabiusbile]

Produce evidence or proof

No... it is far from a fact that he knew about it and was allowed to make such decisions... or maybe he knew about it.
But this is clearly no worse than how Colin Powell cracked a test tube of chemical weapons at the UN, allegedly of Iraqi origin. He knew that chemical weapons are not there...
you know, your injections are so funny, you are trying to accuse Putin of bloodthirstiness for those events when he was not yet the head, whereas your leaders have no less blood on their hands.
You made a mistake with Chechnya, Putin did not start these wars, because there were people older and more influential than him and they made these decisions. Putin is responsible for many things, but not for Chechnya, these are "gifts" of other leaders