Nato Members Chicken Out - No Migs for Ukraine

[maxparrish]

The EU promise to provide 70 Migs and Su's to Ukraine as replacements fell apart. On March 1st/2nd Ukrainian pilots arrived to pick up the planes from Poland, only to discover that Poland and other states don't want to take the risk of Russian retaliation. Russia has apparently intimidated these states sufficiently with it threats to scotch the plan.

Sad...very sad.

NATO Will Not Be Lending Fighter Jets to Ukraine | National Review

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said Tuesday that European Union members will not lend fighter jets to the war in Ukraine.

www.nationalreview.com

 

[oneworld2]

The EU promise to provide 70 Migs and Su's to Ukraine as replacements fell apart. On March 1st/2nd Ukrainian pilots arrived to pick up the planes from Poland, only to discover that Poland and other states don't want to take the risk of Russian retaliation. Russia has apparently intimidated these states sufficiently with it threats to scotch the plan.

Sad...very sad.

NATO Will Not Be Lending Fighter Jets to Ukraine | National Review

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said Tuesday that European Union members will not lend fighter jets to the war in Ukraine.

www.nationalreview.com

Said from the safety of being out of range yourself btw very sad.

 

[Chomsky]

The EU promise to provide 70 Migs and Su's to Ukraine as replacements fell apart. On March 1st/2nd Ukrainian pilots arrived to pick up the planes from Poland, only to discover that Poland and other states don't want to take the risk of Russian retaliation. Russia has apparently intimidated these states sufficiently with it threats to scotch the plan.

Sad...very sad.

NATO Will Not Be Lending Fighter Jets to Ukraine | National Review

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said Tuesday that European Union members will not lend fighter jets to the war in Ukraine.

www.nationalreview.com

Several days' old news, but yes - I still find it sad., perhaps even more-so given Putin's increased savagery & barbarism.

 

[maxparrish]

Several days' old news, but yes - I still find it sad., perhaps even more-so given Putin's increased savagery & barbarism.

I had no idea the deal fell thru. The US ought to be facilitating it, promising to provide replacement F16s and F-15s, piloted by US aviators (if the host country does not have pilots certified to fly them). Better yet, 70 F-35s rotated into these countries would even be better.

 

[Rexedgar]

Where is is written in the code of proxy wars that missiles and such are within the rules and airplanes are not? For those that say well ammo and missiles are defensive weapons and fighters are offensive, I counter that anything Ukraine does within their sovereign borders versus The Russian Federation is defensive in nature.

 

[Chomsky]

I had no idea the deal fell thru.

It seems NATO leadership nixed the deal, in a formal voting session.

The US ought to be facilitating it, promising to provide replacement F16s and F-15s, piloted by US aviators (if the host country does not have pilots certified to fly them). Better yet, 70 F-35s rotated into these countries would even be better.

The bolded seems to be one of the main sticking points. If NATO pilots & aircraft are hit while on delivery, it then becomes a Chapter 5 issue.

 

[Chomsky]

Where is is written in the code of proxy wars that missiles and such are within the rules and airplanes are not? For those that say well ammo and missiles are defensive weapons and fighters are offensive, I counter that anything Ukraine does within their sovereign borders versus The Russian Federation is defensive in nature.

How do you deliver the planes? If they're piloted by NATO members and come under attack, Chapter 5 gets invoked.

Unless the can get Ukrainian pilots into host countries, to fly them into the Ukraine?

 

[Rexedgar]

@Chomsky

Lucy pulled the football away:

Poland poised to let EU-funded fighter jets take off to target Russia

UKRAINIAN soldiers have reportedly arrived in Poland to take control of planes donated by European Union nations in support of Kyiv over Moscow's attacks.

www.express.co.uk

PS you’re in the Book of Love, it’s Article 5, cheers!

 

[maxparrish]

It seems NATO leadership nixed the deal, in a formal voting session.

The bolded seems to be one of the main sticking points. If NATO pilots & aircraft are hit while on delivery, it then becomes a Chapter 5 issue.

Perhaps we misunderstand one another. I'm only saying that F-15s/16s/F35s that are delivered to Poland as a part of NATO would make up for the Polish loss of its MIGs to Ukraine. Russia has zero cause to attack NATO aid to a NATO member, which NATO already does already.

Nor am I swayed that there is an issue with the delivery of MIG 29s by Ukranian pilots ferrying aircraft, as long as a ferry flight ends at a Ukrainian destination, not to be flown from NATO bases into direct action.

Should the Russians shoot at, or shoot down the ferried MIG while in Ukrainian airspace, so be it.

 

[Callen]

My heart breaks for the Ukrainian people while I simultaneously stand in awe of them, I am becoming increasingly annoyed with the amount of armchair quarterbacking going on. We know nothing, we know less than nothing about the complexities of trying to manage this horror. I for one am thankful that we have rational, informed western leaders trying to navigate this crisis. Hats off to them...no second guessing from me.....although I would cut off all Russian oil exports and accept the price at the pump it would cause. Our inconvenience is nothing like their sacrifice. We are so damn blessed yet we can't even come together over this. Shame on us.

 

[trouble13]

Said from the safety of being out of range yourself btw very sad.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Ukrainian pilots cannot fly Western fighter jets. There are none of those in Ukraine.

That is why older MiGs and Sukhoi fighters were going to be given to them.

NATO has really disappointed here. They are still allowing the allience to be intimidated by Putin.

You'd think they would learn. Putin will next be on NATO doorsteps, and with nuclear weapons in Belarus.

 

[oneworld2]

Yes that's exactly where it came from

 

[Peter]

The UK doesn't have any Migs to give them even if we wanted to.
The UK has sent aircraft to the area including Eurofighters, F-35B and surveillance assets along with literally planeloads of anti tank and aircraft missiles.

 

[maxparrish]

UPDATE: I just read that the US is having consultations with Poland to see if there is a method to ship some of their mig fighters to Ukraine, and US to offer F-16s to Poland to replace. May yet still happen... 3/5/2022.

 

[bomberfox]

You do know MiGs are Russian planes right?….

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

The way I hear it told, switching from a lifetime of flying MiG's to something like an F-16 isn't the air equivalent of jumping into a Ford when you've been a lifetime Chevy owner.
Apparently it's a WHOLE LOT MORE complicated than that.

 

[Hamish Howl]

The EU promise to provide 70 Migs and Su's to Ukraine as replacements fell apart. On March 1st/2nd Ukrainian pilots arrived to pick up the planes from Poland, only to discover that Poland and other states don't want to take the risk of Russian retaliation. Russia has apparently intimidated these states sufficiently with it threats to scotch the plan.

Sad...very sad.

NATO Will Not Be Lending Fighter Jets to Ukraine | National Review

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said Tuesday that European Union members will not lend fighter jets to the war in Ukraine.

www.nationalreview.com

Why the hell not? It's not like lend-lease is a new concept, and it's not like Russia wasn't handing out MIGs in Korea and Vietnam.

 

[Acadia]

The EU promise to provide 70 Migs and Su's to Ukraine as replacements fell apart. On March 1st/2nd Ukrainian pilots arrived to pick up the planes from Poland, only to discover that Poland and other states don't want to take the risk of Russian retaliation. Russia has apparently intimidated these states sufficiently with it threats to scotch the plan.

Sad...very sad.

NATO Will Not Be Lending Fighter Jets to Ukraine | National Review

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said Tuesday that European Union members will not lend fighter jets to the war in Ukraine.

www.nationalreview.com

 

[maxparrish]

You do know MiGs are Russian planes right?….

And you do know that is the reason Ukraine needs them, right?

And you probably don't know that the majority of Poland's combat aircraft are already F-16s (48). Hence replacing Mig 29s for F-16s has been routine SOP for years (and soon replacement with f-35s). They've been training pilots on with 12 F-16 trainers for many years, its not like the poles are dolts.

 

[maxparrish]

The way I hear it told, switching from a lifetime of flying MiG's to something like an F-16 isn't the air equivalent of jumping into a Ford when you've been a lifetime Chevy owner.
Apparently it's a WHOLE LOT MORE complicated than that.

Correct. But Poland would be flying the F-16s, and the majority of their combat aircraft are already f-16s. This isn't new to them, and like any modern air force, their existing pilots rotate into different fighters periodically.

 

[maxparrish]

Why the hell not? It's not like lend-lease is a new concept, and it's not like Russia wasn't handing out MIGs in Korea and Vietnam.

That is how I look at it. I really don't get the concern over how to deliver them.

 

[Hamish Howl]

That is how I look at it. I really don't get the concern over how to deliver them.

That's easy. You stick them on an airfield in Latvia or Poland and have the Ukrainians come and get them.

 

[Rogue Valley]

The US remains in talks with Poland.

Poland wants advanced US fighters to replace however many MiGs it send to Ukraine.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

The way I hear it told, switching from a lifetime of flying MiG's to something like an F-16 isn't the air equivalent of jumping into a Ford when you've been a lifetime Chevy owner.
Apparently it's a WHOLE LOT MORE complicated than that.

This came up in another thread, and I made the comment that spares and trained technicians to keep planes flying would also need to be easy to provide.
A sudden switch to modern western aircraft and all the Spares and equipment that are needed would take months to achieve and the Ukrainians need them now, not at Christmas.