NATO is Now Dead (1 Viewer)

[gman]

I must say, the desperation Europe has to cling to a supposed “ally” in the US that never stops whining about them “not doing enough” is rather sad.

Nobody really gives a shit what you think comrade.

 

[NJBob]

Yes, they did.

Which goes back to my point, which is that Finland only got a “mulligan” because they plead with Stalin for mercy.

If you knew history you would know that Finland negotiated a peace deal with the Soviet Union in 1944 and as part of the deal turned on the Germans in the Lapland War. This freed well over a million Soviet troops to concentrate on Germany.

But from the sound of your posts I would bet you didn’t.

 

[NJBob]

Ukraine has annexed the rest of Europe when I wasn’t looking?

What the hell does that mean?

 

[Tigerace117]

If you knew history you would know that Finland negotiated a peace deal with the Soviet Union in 1944 and as part of the deal turned on the Germans in the Lapland War. This freed well over a million Soviet troops to concentrate on Germany.

But from the sound of your posts I would bet you didn’t.

Dude, you claimed the Soviets lost 250,000 more dead in the Winter War than the maximum estimates of troops they deployed at all.

You don’t have any room to talk about “historical ignorance”

Yes, the Soviets forced the Finns to turn on the Nazis as one of the conditions for not rolling IS-2s into Helsinki.

 

[Tigerace117]

What the hell does that mean?

That claims about “Russia invading Europe” are either A) hopelessly vague and nonsensical if you are only talking about Ukraine, or B) downright comical if you mean all of Europe, as established.

 

[Tigerace117]

Nobody really gives a shit what you think comrade.

If that were true you wouldn’t have ever replied in the first place

Maybe if the US would stop yapping incessantly people wouldn’t point out it does so

 

[notquiteright]

NATO is Now Dead:

Read this scathing report about the NATO alliance.

MSN

"NATO’s death was not caused by Donald Trump, though he may soon become its undertaker."

"Nor was it caused by Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, though that war has exposed the Alliance’s hollowness in ways no war game or communique ever could. The real cause lies in decades of European free-riding, American strategic drift, and a foundational lie at the heart of the Alliance: the idea that an empire can masquerade as a collective defense pact without consequences."

National Security Journal. I've followed that website for a while now. It has a drum it likes to beat. Several flaws in the facts it reports. Most Nations in the Alliance to include the USofA don't meet tRump's spending requirement. Russia isn't the Cold War juggernaut, probably never was. The Journal also points out America isn't the Cold War juggernaut it once may have been.
Russia couldn't seize the Ukraine; it would be an epic fail if Putin tried to attack NATO. Bluff, threaten and posture but NATO lives and will continue to be a deterrent even with a crumbling American military and economy crushing debt....

 

[NJBob]

Dude, you claimed the Soviets lost 250,000 more dead in the Winter War than the maximum estimates of troops they deployed at all,

That was Khrushchev who said that. Why would he lie?

You don’t have any room to talk about “historical ignorance”

I get it, you’re only parroting what you learned in shkola.

Yes, the Soviets forced the Finns to turn on the Nazis as one of the conditions for not rolling IS-2s into Helsinki.

And again, Finland, which still exists, was not conquered. It’s the Soviet Union that exists only in the dustbin of history.

 

[Tigerace117]

That was Khrushchev who said that. Why would he lie?


I get it, you’re only parroting what you learned in shkola.


And again, Finland, which still exists, was not conquered. It’s the Soviet Union that exists only in the dustbin of history.

You still haven’t provided a source for your claim he said so, and, as mentioned, given the Soviets didn’t deploy anywhere near a million men during the Winter War, it would be blatantly false regardless.

Which makes your posturing especially hilarious, especially so given America has pushed the Lost Cause and literal Nazi propaganda in its schools for decades.

Finland was forced to beg for mercy. That it wasn’t annexed is entirely because the Soviets didn’t want to annex it.

And Russia still controls every inch of the land Finland ceded.

 

[NJBob]

You still haven’t provided a source for your claim he said so, and, as mentioned, given the Soviets didn’t deploy anywhere near a million men during the Winter War, it would be blatantly false regardless.

Which makes your posturing especially hilarious, especially so given America has pushed the Lost Cause and literal Nazi propaganda in its schools for decades.

Finland was forced to beg for mercy. That it wasn’t annexed is entirely because the Soviets didn’t want to annex it.

And Russia still controls every inch of the land Finland ceded.

In Khrushchev Remembers, he states; “We lost a million men in Finland.” Or is that “Nazi propaganda”?

 

[Tigerace117]

In Khrushchev Remembers, he states; “We lost a million men in Finland.” Or is that “Nazi propaganda”?

I’m still waiting for your evidence he said any such thing, especially since it was blatantly false and Khrushchev would have known that.....unless, I suppose, he was counting casualties from the Siege of Leningrad during the Continuation War as part of the Winter War.

Because it’s an objective fact the Soviets never lost anywhere near a million men in Finland.

But you haven’t managed to prove Khrushchev ever said any such thing in the first place.

 

[NJBob]

Sure , whatever makes you feel better.

Read Khrushchev’s memoirs, I’m sure you can read it in the original. I have no doubt your Russian is better than mine.

 

[Rich2018]

NATO is Now Dead:

Read this scathing report about the NATO alliance.

MSN

"NATO’s death was not caused by Donald Trump, though he may soon become its undertaker."

"Nor was it caused by Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, though that war has exposed the Alliance’s hollowness in ways no war game or communique ever could. The real cause lies in decades of European free-riding, American strategic drift, and a foundational lie at the heart of the Alliance: the idea that an empire can masquerade as a collective defense pact without consequences."

It's just suffering a temporary crisis until president bone spurs leaves office,.

 

[Surrealistik]

The existence of the “stay behind” NATO movements strongly argues otherwise, firstly. Turkey’s “deep state” basically was created by NATO in the first place, and the ties to both the Grey Wolves and other fascist paramilitaries across Europe are pretty much unequivocal.

Oh really? How secure do you think Denmark is feeling right about now?

NATO has never, ever been opposed to wars of territorial conquest or vasalizing other states, so the supposed opposition is rather laughably hypocritical at best.

Conspiracy theory nonsense aside, could you tell me who tried to actually leave NATO, and was denied or otherwise intimidated out of doing so?

If Russia was as incompetent as claimed Ukraine should be winning the war easily. They aren’t.

Instead, we’ve had supposedly impregnable Ukrainian fortresses fall one after the other, with “best in the world” equipment proving to be far less then advertised.

If Russia wasn't as incompetent as claimed, or if Ukraine was otherwise less capable, they would be in Kyiv right now; it's been more than three years.

Because hysteria about Russia is essential in the propaganda narrative thr US is attempting to craft to justify taking over Canada.

Russia has had virtually zero connection to Trump's 51st state nonsense, and even if it did, that would have zero bearing on my support of Ukraine and opposition to Russia's criminal invasion.

 

[Tigerace117]

Sure , whatever makes you feel better.

Read Khrushchev’s memoirs, I’m sure you can read it in the original. I have no doubt your Russian is better than mine.

Gee, on one hand we have the known Soviet troop strength for the Winter War.

On the other, your claim that Khrushchev said such a thing— a thing which we know isn’t even remotely true— only to backpedal wildly in a panic when asked to support said claim.

Hmmm.....

Looks like I just trashed another one of those lies the West invented to make itself feel better

 

[Tigerace117]

Conspiracy theory nonsense aside, could you tell me who tried to actually leave NATO, and was denied or otherwise intimidated out of doing so?


If Russia wasn't as incompetent as claimed, or if Ukraine was otherwise less capable, they would be in Kyiv right now; it's been more than three years.


Russia has had virtually zero connection to Trump's 51st state nonsense, and even if it did, that would have zero bearing on my support of Ukraine and opposition to Russia's criminal invasion.

The existence of Contra-Guerilla and other NATO “stay behinds” isn’t even remotely a conspiracy theory, nor their connections to the Grey Wolves and involvement in multiple Turkish coups.

It took the supposed “most powerful military ever” decades to try and fail to beat guys who didn’t have a single tank to their name, so clearly not.

The explicit rationale for attacking Greenland and Canada is “something something fighting Russia and China in the Arctic”

 

[Surrealistik]

The existence of Contra-Guerilla and other NATO “stay behinds” isn’t even remotely a conspiracy theory, nor their connections to the Grey Wolves and involvement in multiple Turkish coups.

It took the supposed “most powerful military ever” decades to try and fail to beat guys who didn’t have a single tank to their name, so clearly not.

The conspiracy is in the notion that there is/was a Turkey "deep state" orchestrated by NATO specifically to prevent a country from leaving it.

If you have proof of this, or a similar operation, again, specifically undertaken by NATO as an organization to prevent a country from leaving it, I invite you to share as much.

The explicit rationale for attacking Greenland and Canada is “something something fighting Russia and China in the Arctic”

For Greenland that has been floated at some point; for Canada, no. But again, it's an irrelevant aside; my reasons for opposing Russia have everything to do with its indefensible actions and zero to do with Trump's insane rhetoric.

 

[Tigerace117]

The conspiracy is in the notion that there is/was a Turkey "deep state" orchestrated by NATO specifically to prevent a country from leaving it.

If you have proof of this, or a similar operation, again, specifically undertaken by NATO as an organization to prevent a country from leaving it, I invite you to share as much.


For Greenland that has been floated at some point; for Canada, no. But again, it's an irrelevant aside; my reasons for opposing Russia have everything to do with its indefensible actions and zero to do with Trump's insane rhetoric.

The Turkish deep state is very real, unlike the American one, dude. Given the US has repeatedly backed coups to prevent the perceived threat of countries leaving their sphere of influence, as in Brazil, the pretense that the Contra Guerilla wasn’t backing all those coups—much like other “stay behinds” aided fascist terror cells in places like Italy— to keep Turkey “in line” is laughable.

No it isn’t. Without “but Russia” the propaganda narrative needed for the invasion simply wouldn’t be able to exist.

 

[j brown's body]

National Security Journal. I've followed that website for a while now. It has a drum it likes to beat. Several flaws in the facts it reports. Most Nations in the Alliance to include the USofA don't meet tRump's spending requirement. Russia isn't the Cold War juggernaut, probably never was. The Journal also points out America isn't the Cold War juggernaut it once may have been.
Russia couldn't seize the Ukraine; it would be an epic fail if Putin tried to attack NATO. Bluff, threaten and posture but NATO lives and will continue to be a deterrent even with a crumbling American military and economy crushing debt....

Putin is sort of the anti-juggernaut, waging a mostly low key cyberwar against the west. But his imperial ambitions are real. Making him a threat to liberal democracies everywhere.

 

[Tigerace117]

Putin is sort of the anti-juggernaut, waging a mostly low key cyberwar against the west. But his imperial ambitions are real. Making him a threat to liberal democracies everywhere.

The US has destroyed more democracies than Russia and it isn’t even remotely close.

 

[j brown's body]

The US has destroyed more democracies than Russia and it isn’t even remotely close.

Yeah, its bad when anyone does it, the US or Putin.

It should be vocally opposed wherever and whenever its revealed.

The particular example here is Putin.

Feel free to oppose.

 

[Tigerace117]

Yeah, its bad when anyone does it, the US or Putin.

It should be vocally opposed wherever and whenever its revealed.

The particular example here is Putin.

Feel free to oppose.

So your claim is a clear and utter falsehood, and the US is a far greater threat to “democracy” than Russia could ever dream of being.

And no amount of wailing about Putin can ever change that.

 

[Surrealistik]

The Turkish deep state is very real, unlike the American one, dude. Given the US has repeatedly backed coups to prevent the perceived threat of countries leaving their sphere of influence, as in Brazil, the pretense that the Contra Guerilla wasn’t backing all those coups—much like other “stay behinds” aided fascist terror cells in places like Italy— to keep Turkey “in line” is laughable.

I asked for sources that clearly demonstrate that NATO, as an organization, has specifically worked to stop member countries from leaving; you have not provided.

No it isn’t. Without “but Russia” the propaganda narrative needed for the invasion simply wouldn’t be able to exist.

I have never seen Trump, who is the primary pusher of this 51st state nonsense, ever refer to Russia as The reason for it, or even A reason for it. Again, please source your claims.

And yes, it is very much irrelevant to me and my motives for opposing Russia. I don't care about what you deem to be Trump's propaganda, but I do care that Russia's invasion is blatantly in the wrong.

 

[Noodlegawd]

It's not in the US's interest to keep Europe from being dominated by Russia?

Why can't Europe keep Europe from being dominated by Russia? The EU alone has 10 times the GDP and 3 times the population.

 

[NJBob]

Gee, on one hand we have the known Soviet troop strength for the Winter War.

On the other, your claim that Khrushchev said such a thing— a thing which we know isn’t even remotely true— only to backpedal wildly in a panic when asked to support said claim.

I’ll help you out since you seem to be unable find info on your own; Khrushchev Remembers, page 155 of the 1970 edition.

Hmmm.....

Looks like I just trashed another one of those lies the West invented to make itself feel better.

Looks like you are just another victim of Russian lies and propaganda.