National yearly allotment [W 387]

[Helix]

Hmm. I thought that I did include government in a reasonably limited fashion in the education system and process. So you're already off there.

The nuance that you missed is the basic fundamental fact that when something is given away for free, it loses all its value, as everyone is getting it for free. It will cease to be respected, it will cease to be earned, and it will sap any drive and persistence in achieving it.

i support debt free post secondary education or job training with completion of the degree as a condition.

If you give away any level of education for free, people won't respect it, work at it, and it'll be an assumed given in the market place. Kinda how high school diplomas are now, and pretty much (now) useless college degrees are. How many pointless post-graduate degrees are going to be invented?

well, if you take look at the chart that i've already posted, a high school degree begins to look a little less "useless." unless, of course, you enjoy paying long term public assistance.

 

[eohrnberger]

i support debt free post secondary education or job training with completion of the degree as a condition.

Should a debt free post secondary education or job training be in place, every job would require that level of education as a minimum whether the job required it or not, and there wouldn't be any greater compensation for having that level of education.

We see this pattern in Europe. For any sort of career, you need what amounts to a Masters degree, whether you need it or not, and the EU has to import those that will work in the service sectors, such as wait staff.

What problem are you trying to solve? College professor unemployment? Not enough money being funneled into colleges? We already see how that's working, it is partially causing the hike in costs for that level of education.

Who do you have lined up to pay for all of this? The tax payer? What's their benefit? Seems only a loss in their taxes and then again, a loss to their incomes through high prices.

well, if you take look at the chart that i've already posted, a high school degree begins to look a little less "useless." unless, of course, you enjoy paying long term public assistance.

No, I'd very much like everyone to be able to earn their own way. That being said, there are far too many high school drop outs that become, as you've indicated, long term public assistance dependents.

 

[SocialD]

of course it's logically connected. it's dip**** dumb policy to put a significant paywall between kids and intellectual development / the tools that they need to support themselves. i suppose if the private sector wants to step up and remove the paywall, then cool, but otherwise, the public sector is going to have to do it.

As I mentioned or rather linked to, previously it was government involvement that , to a large degree at least, created the pay wall. is more government involvement going to fix it?

 

[Helix]

Should a debt free post secondary education or job training be in place, every job would require that level of education as a minimum whether the job required it or not, and there wouldn't be any greater compensation for having that level of education.

We see this pattern in Europe. For any sort of career, you need what amounts to a Masters degree, whether you need it or not, and the EU has to import those that will work in the service sectors, such as wait staff.

What problem are you trying to solve? College professor unemployment? Not enough money being funneled into colleges? We already see how that's working, it is partially causing the hike in costs for that level of education.

Who do you have lined up to pay for all of this? The tax payer? What's their benefit? Seems only a loss in their taxes and then again, a loss to their incomes through high prices.



No, I'd very much like everyone to be able to earn their own way. That being said, there are far too many high school drop outs that become, as you've indicated, long term public assistance dependents.

the problem i'm trying to solve is that there's a massive paywall in between the student and higher education, which is pretty stupid national policy. and this.

 

[Helix]

As I mentioned or rather linked to, previously it was government involvement that , to a large degree at least, created the pay wall. is more government involvement going to fix it?

what's the alternative? is the private sector going to guarantee debt free post secondary education / job training upon completion of the degree? if so, then let's do it.

 

[SocialD]

what's the alternative? is the private sector going to guarantee debt free post secondary education / job training upon completion of the degree? if so, then let's do it.

Well some companies do tuition reimbursement. but I would say that that perk is on the decline.

 

[eohrnberger]

the problem i'm trying to solve is that there's a massive paywall in between the student and higher education, which is pretty stupid national policy. and this.

View attachment 67196220

OK, so just supposin' the paywall is taken down, and the tax payers are now buying every single person a college education.

The demand for college out strips supply, the price to the tax payer is now doubled, if not tripled or even more. The impact on the economy is dire, as everyone is sending the vast majority of their take home pay to the government to pay for everyone's college education.

Every job, from store clerk on up, now comes with a requirement to be a college graduate.

What's really changed? (Other than driving what little is left of the middle class into the poor house?)

This is exactly the same situation that the vast majority of EU finds itself in.

There needs to be balance in everything.

 

[Helix]

Well some companies do tuition reimbursement. but I would say that that perk is on the decline.

i agree.

 

[Helix]

OK, so just supposin' the paywall is taken down, and the tax payers are now buying every single person a college education.

The demand for college out strips supply, the price to the tax payer is now doubled, if not tripled or even more. The impact on the economy is dire, as everyone is sending the vast majority of their take home pay to the government to pay for everyone's college education.

Every job, from store clerk on up, now comes with a requirement to be a college graduate.

What's really changed? (Other than driving what little is left of the middle class into the poor house?)

This is exactly the same situation that the vast majority of EU finds itself in.

There needs to be balance in everything.

one more time.

i am arguing for ensuring debt free access to post secondary education / job training, with completion of the degree as a requirement. is that clear?

 

[eohrnberger]

one more time.

i am arguing for ensuring debt free access to post secondary education / job training, with completion of the degree as a requirement. is that clear?

Sure, it's clear. Has been all along.

And I'm pointing out that there are problems with the fall out from implementing that and even problems trying to implement.

It's just that you don't want to hear it, think about it, or even consider it as valid, when it's perfectly legitimate and valid.

"Dam the torpedoes full speed ahead!" without considering the impacts isn't a realistic way to run much of anything.

 

[Absentglare]

Sure, it's clear. Has been all along.

And I'm pointing out that there are problems with the fall out from implementing that and even problems trying to implement.

It's just that you don't want to hear it, think about it, or even consider it as valid, when it's perfectly legitimate and valid.

"Dam the torpedoes full speed ahead!" without considering the impacts isn't a realistic way to run much of anything.

The way Europe works is that college is paid for on the basis of merit. If you don't qualify for a 4 year degree, there are vocational schools.

And this model is widely successful at maintaining a strong service economy from their highly skilled work forces.

 

[cpwill]

I'd set it at the poverty threshold, currently $11,770 for an individual. It's progressive, so if you earn $11,000, then you only get $770.

So... people making below the poverty line would face effective 100% taxation rates? If I make an extra $600, I lose that $600 in benefits?

To pay for it, I'd have progressive taxation up to the median income ($51,939), with quite small brackets, and a flat tax after that. Also implement a 10% tax on the sale on non-essential items, and a 20% tax on the sale of items (not property, but things like cars or boats) with a value of over $100,000.

They've tried variations of that before. Turns out, luxury taxes depress demand for goods made by middle class workers, increasing employment.

 

[Quag]

Let's say there's a national law guaranteeing each individual a certain amount of money per year instead of any kind of welfare, tax credits, or other assistance, what should that amount be? Please state how it would be paid for.

I believe you just need to build some kind of doomsday device and demand the UN to pay

 

[cpwill]

That chart doesn't mean anything in regards to your position.

In the first place, workers and their children can and do currently qualify for all three of those programs.

In the second place, it does not address the issue raised which is there are not enough jobs to cover all available workers NOW, even with improved education. Why would that change just because people are more educated?

Because, Magic!!! :kitty:


Lots of Arab countries experimented with this a while back - they heavily subsidized education for things like Engineering.


Now they have a lot of young, male, engineers, for whom they have no engineering jobs....

.....and it turns out that Engineers have been trained to think in ways that predispose them to Islamist Fundamentalism, and are extremely good at things like organizing and making bombs.


Woops?

 

[cpwill]

one more time.

i am arguing for ensuring debt free access to post secondary education / job training, with completion of the degree as a requirement. is that clear?

Can't help but notice that you didn't answer his question.

Given that we have a glut of college graduates now, how does increasing the bubble help?

 

[eohrnberger]

The way Europe works is that college is paid for on the basis of merit. If you don't qualify for a 4 year degree, there are vocational schools.

And this model is widely successful at maintaining a strong service economy from their highly skilled work forces.

Yeah, that's what's being reported in the media. As with every system, there's the up side, but also a down side.
I've got family over there going through, or have gone through, that education system.

The first 2-3 years of college will have nothing to do with your career path or field of study.
In order to possibly be able to study in your field, it'll usually won't be until the 3rd or 4th year.

In order to hopefully, eventually, be able to get to your field of study you have to stay in school, take a bunch of classes that don't relate to your field of study, probably bumping someone out of their field of study, all the while artificially increasing demand (all those non-field of study classes just to stay in school) and expense (all those students taking all those non-field of study classes) for college education.

Yeah, this whole things sounds pretty fudge packed to me. So yeah, it's not all bright, shiny and perfect. But I don't think that anyone is claiming it is.

 

[Absentglare]

Yeah, that's what's being reported in the media. As with every system, there's the up side, but also a down side.
I've got family over there going through, or have gone through, that education system.

The first 2-3 years of college will have nothing to do with your career path or field of study.
In order to possibly be able to study in your field, it'll usually won't be until the 3rd or 4th year.

In order to hopefully, eventually, be able to get to your field of study you have to stay in school, take a bunch of classes that don't relate to your field of study, probably bumping someone out of their field of study, all the while artificially increasing demand (all those non-field of study classes just to stay in school) and expense (all those students taking all those non-field of study classes) for college education.

Yeah, this whole things sounds pretty fudge packed to me. So yeah, it's not all bright, shiny and perfect. But I don't think that anyone is claiming it is.

As a EE, i protest. I had far less than 2 years of unnecessary classwork.

All of my physics/chemistry/math was applicable. My basic engineering and programming classes were applicable.

Half of my classes were in the EE department itself and applicable by definition.

I really just had a handful of classes, i think maybe 8 in all, that were not relevant to my major in any direct way. That's not nearly so wasteful as you seem to purport. Further, within those classes, i was still taught how to critically think and communicate my views. As an engineer, i can tell you a primary problem within this profession is an inability to effectively communicate.

But you're missing the major goal of my point, to create a vocational program in the US. Those focus on the skills directly and keep costs down.

Germany gives free college to American students. They claim they're paid for even during the short time they stay on average. Seems their economy is doing just fine, don't you agree ?

 

[Absentglare]

Because, Magic!!! :kitty:


Lots of Arab countries experimented with this a while back - they heavily subsidized education for things like Engineering.


Now they have a lot of young, male, engineers, for whom they have no engineering jobs....

.....and it turns out that Engineers have been trained to think in ways that predispose them to Islamist Fundamentalism, and are extremely good at things like organizing and making bombs.


Woops?

Turns out that security is an important factor for prospective businesses. We don't seem to share that issue.

Can't help but notice that you didn't answer his question.

Given that we have a glut of college graduates now, how does increasing the bubble help?

Assuming we have a supply glut, that's not really the same thing as a speculative bubble.

 

[eohrnberger]

As a EE, i protest. I had far less than 2 years of unnecessary classwork.

Educated in the EU I wonder? As this was the education system that I was discussing. Perhaps it's specific to Germany?

All of my physics/chemistry/math was applicable. My basic engineering and programming classes were applicable.

Half of my classes were in the EE department itself and applicable by definition.

I really just had a handful of classes, i think maybe 8 in all, that were not relevant to my major in any direct way. That's not nearly so wasteful as you seem to purport. Further, within those classes, i was still taught how to critically think and communicate my views. As an engineer, i can tell you a primary problem within this profession is an inability to effectively communicate.

But you're missing the major goal of my point, to create a vocational program in the US. Those focus on the skills directly and keep costs down.

Germany gives free college to American students. They claim they're paid for even during the short time they stay on average. Seems their economy is doing just fine, don't you agree ?

Depends on which set of metrics you are measuring by. I'm sure there are some metrics where Germany is doing well, and others where it's not doing so well.

 

[cpwill]

Turns out that security is an important factor for prospective businesses. We don't seem to share that issue.

Egypt had a pretty solid security state, actually.

Assuming we have a supply glut, that's not really the same thing as a speculative bubble.

51% of employed college graduates in a job that doesn't require a college degree
More than half of 2014 grads are in jobs that don't require a degree
Half of College Grads Are Working Jobs That Don't Require a Degree

Etc. We have a glut. Furthermore, we have a glut at the same time that prices have continued to rise. I feel pretty confident that's a bubble.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

Just in case there's any confusion, a person making more than the yearly allotment wouldn't receive any money and would actually be paying into it, a person making less than that would be paid the difference, and a person making no money would get the full amount (unless married and spouse doesn't make double the yearly allotment). In other words, what should be the national minimum amount of money that a person should be entitled to each year.

They are entitled to what they can earn.

 

[Absentglare]

Egypt had a pretty solid security state, actually.



51% of employed college graduates in a job that doesn't require a college degree
More than half of 2014 grads are in jobs that don't require a degree
Half of College Grads Are Working Jobs That Don't Require a Degree

Etc. We have a glut. Furthermore, we have a glut at the same time that prices have continued to rise. I feel pretty confident that's a bubble.

Egypt is nowhere near as safe as the US or Germany.

The careerbuilder survey's pool is likely flawed- underemployed are more likely to use such a site. Further, only 45% of 4-year degree grads are underemployed and that number drops to 25% within STEM [forbes link].

 

[Kushinator]

51% of employed college graduates in a job that doesn't require a college degree
More than half of 2014 grads are in jobs that don't require a degree
Half of College Grads Are Working Jobs That Don't Require a Degree

Etc. We have a glut. Furthermore, we have a glut at the same time that prices have continued to rise. I feel pretty confident that's a bubble.

Basing a bubble on job search frictions for entry level college graduates makes little sense. We know a relationship between education level and employment exists. Furthermore, we also know that employment for those with a bachelor's degree or higher and ages 25+ has increased by 8.7 million since 2009. Lastly, those with a degree tend to earn more than those without one.

Your bias against higher education has previously been established.

 

[cpwill]

Egypt is nowhere near as safe as the US or Germany.

Sure. That's not terribly relevant to the fact that if you produce far more engineers than you need, that's not going to magically create engineering jobs at the pre-production pay level.

The careerbuilder survey's pool is likely flawed- underemployed are more likely to use such a site. Further, only 45% of 4-year degree grads are underemployed and that number drops to 25% within STEM [forbes link].

Within STEM, sure. STEM, however, are not a majority of bachelor degrees. Pointing out that there is less of a glut in some areas of education doesn't alter the fact that there is a glut.

 

[Absentglare]

National yearly allotment

Sure. That's not terribly relevant to the fact that if you produce far more engineers than you need, that's not going to magically create engineering jobs at the pre-production pay level.



Within STEM, sure. STEM, however, are not a majority of bachelor degrees. Pointing out that there is less of a glut in some areas of education doesn't alter the fact that there is a glut.

My proposal would be to provide additional tuition assistance for STEM and other high-demand majors.

The idea would be that the additional educational demand would have to be met by increasing supply, thus increasing the overall skills and therefore overall income of the public.