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National Debt by President

  • Thread starter Thread starter GatorMark
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Gator: I know you MEANT well, but the graph in the link shows the rate of growth of debt under Obama to be ever greater than it was going into WWII. It leaves an observer wondering which side of the Uniparty is the bigger screw-up.
 
Since the POTUS has very little to do with this, other than to propose and cheerlead for his proposals, perhaps that should be listed by congress. I guess you could say the POTUS has the power of refusal over congressional budgets, but even then the nuts and bolts all end up being turned by the congress critters.
 
National Debt Graph by President
Increases in the National Debt Chart
National Debt by President | The Big Picture

R - Ronald Reagan:
Percent change in total debt: +218%

R - George H.W. Bush:
Percent change in total debt: +55%

D - Bill Clinton:
Percent change in total debt: +37%

R - George W. Bush:
Percent change in total debt: +86%

D - Barack Obama:
Percent change in total debt: +34%

Remember that these happened in sequence, which kind of skews the appearance of the comparison.

Let's say you're president for four years and the debt increases by 100%. Then I take over and during my term the debt increases 100% in four years. Who increased the debt more?

Answer? I did. And not even that, but I increased the debt by more than ALL my predecessors COMBINED! That's the crazy thing. If we use percentages, we look equal, but we didn't have the same starting point. You doubled the debt. And I re-doubled it. Every time the debt is redoubled, it means that more was spent than all predecessors combined.

Another visual? Let's invent a debt number starting in 1980 and run it through the chain:

Debt in 1980: $1 Trillion
Debt after Reagan: $2.18 Trillion (added $0.14 Trillion per year)
Debt after Bush I: $3.38 Trillion (added $0.3 Trillion per year)
Debt after Clinton: $4.63 Trillion (added $0.15 Trillion per year)
Debt after Bush II: $8.61 Trillion (added 0.49 Trillion per year)
Debt after Obama ('12): $11.53 Trillion (added $0.73 Trillion per year)

Looking at it that way (admitting I did not adjust for inflation), Reagan appears to be the most frugal of them all, and Obama looks to be the worst spender of them all, right? Shoot.
 
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My calculations in the above aren't quite right. But my point was just to illustrate how the way data is presented can make it a bit misleading.

Let's add another visual and see how it looks this time. This one will hold dollars constant.

National+Debt+1976+-+2011.JPG
 
R - George W. Bush:
Percent change in total debt: +86%

D - Barack Obama:
Percent change in total debt: +34%
Obama, in <4 years, borrowed more than Bush in 8, and, at current rates, and if he gets a 2nd term, will nearly double the debt from when he took office.
Unassailable fact.
 
National Debt Graph by President
Increases in the National Debt Chart
National Debt by President | The Big Picture

R - Ronald Reagan:
Percent change in total debt: +218%

R - George H.W. Bush:
Percent change in total debt: +55%

D - Bill Clinton:
Percent change in total debt: +37%

R - George W. Bush:
Percent change in total debt: +86%

D - Barack Obama:
Percent change in total debt: +34%

Do you go to bed fapping out of joy that you tried to mislead people into facts for your lord and savior Obama? Quit distorting it pal. Obama is the USA's biggest spender.
 
Obama sure isn't a fiscal conservative, but its partisan bull**** to ignore that Bush kept the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan off the books.
 
Since the POTUS has very little to do with this, other than to propose and cheerlead for his proposals, perhaps that should be listed by congress. I guess you could say the POTUS has the power of refusal over congressional budgets, but even then the nuts and bolts all end up being turned by the congress critters.

Hark!

Say lo!

The voice of reason speketh!
 
Since the POTUS has very little to do with this, other than to propose and cheerlead for his proposals, perhaps that should be listed by congress. I guess you could say the POTUS has the power of refusal over congressional budgets, but even then the nuts and bolts all end up being turned by the congress critters.
This is complete myth, and don't bother to lecture me on the budget process. I have been involved with it for decades and will simply tell you that the President writes the budget and that while legislative leaders of either party may pompously proclaim a budget "dead on arrival", the Congress typically ends up legislating within 1% of what the President originally requested. There is no larger influence on a budget than the man (or woman) who is President.
 
National Debt Graph by President
Increases in the National Debt Chart
National Debt by President | The Big Picture

R - Ronald Reagan:
Percent change in total debt: +218%

R - George H.W. Bush:
Percent change in total debt: +55%

D - Bill Clinton:
Percent change in total debt: +37%

R - George W. Bush:
Percent change in total debt: +86%

D - Barack Obama:
Percent change in total debt: +34%

I don't think it's really fair to blame the President for the national debt when Congress has the power of the purse.
 
I don't think it's really fair to blame the President for the national debt when Congress has the power of the purse.

Maybe it's not, but thats what conservatives are doing to Obama.
 
Do you go to bed fapping out of joy that you tried to mislead people into facts for your lord and savior Obama? Quit distorting it pal. Obama is the USA's biggest spender.
LOL! Do you understand the difference between receipts and outlays? Could you explain what sort of effect the worst economic catastrophe since th Great Depression might have been expected to have on those?
 
Obama sure isn't a fiscal conservative, but its partisan bull**** to ignore that Bush kept the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan off the books.
He certainly did do that. He never budgeted a penny for response to natural disasters either. His budgets simply assumed that there would be no floods, forest fires, hurricanes or the like anyhwere in the US at any time during his Presidency.

But eventual expenditures under supplemental appropriations do count against the final budget results. War and disaster spending are inlcuded in the published annual deficit numbers. What is gained from pretending that substantial expenditures are not knowable in advance is first, deliberately phony budget projections that can be touted to the press and in campaign speeches, and second, escape from some of the caps and controls that govern funds appropriated under the normal budget process. In Bush's mind at least, those advantages were enough to justify the plain dishonesty of his approach to budgeting. He was a creature born and raised in the bayou of dishonesty of course, so his budget flim-flamming should hardly have come as any surprise.
 
Maybe it's not, but thats what conservatives are doing to Obama.
What they are actually doing is lying by assuming that Obama was left a neutral background to begin from. In fact, Obama was left a house that was on fire, and while that conflagration has largely now been brought under control, the arsonists who set the blaze to begin with are now blaming him for running large water bills in the process. What a bunch of worthless chumps and churls!
 
What they are actually doing is lying by assuming that Obama was left a neutral background to begin from. In fact, Obama was left a house that was on fire, and while that conflagration has largely now been brought under control, the arsonists who set the blaze to begin with are now blaming him for running large water bills in the process. What a bunch of worthless chumps and churls!
There's a strong case to be made for deficit spending during a weak economy, but it's still a choice. We did the same thing in the 80s when the economy was horrible, but that didn't stop people from blaming Reagan for those deficits.

The main issue with the OP is the way that debt is calculated. % GDP is the conventional way to measure deficits because it makes sense. Reagan's deficits were ~4% GDP while Obama's are ~10% GDP. The mess that Obama is cleaning up is bigger, but not that much bigger, not even close. Reagan was far more fiscally responsible than Obama.
 
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What they are actually doing is lying by assuming that Obama was left a neutral background to begin from. In fact, Obama was left a house that was on fire, and while that conflagration has largely now been brought under control, the arsonists who set the blaze to begin with are now blaming him for running large water bills in the process. What a bunch of worthless chumps and churls!
The arsonists who set the house on fire all live on Wall Street and have bought each successive administration since Goldman Sucks (i.e. Rubin) convinced Klinton to repeal Glass Steagall. They are hardly blaming Obummer for anything, as this admistration just announced another half trillion a year gift directly into their coffers. Did you miss that one?????
 
There's a strong case to be made for deficit spending during a weak economy, but it's still a choice. We did the same thing in the 80s when the economy was horrible, but that didn't stop people from blaming Reagan for those deficits.
LOL! The economy was not horrible when Reagan was inaugurated. We were dealing with the tail end of an oil-price shock. We had been there and done that just six years earlier. What knocked the economy down was Reagan's own voodoo economic policies, specifically tight money that in the name of (unnecessary) inflation-fighting, slammed the door on growth and often much-needed investment, particularly in such industries as steel and autos. Conservatives are such goobers when it comes to economics.

We have of course always relied upon debt in times of national crisis. The Revolution, the Civil War, WWI, the Great Depression, WWII, and now the Great Bush Recession. What grave crisis was imperiling the nation in the 1980's? How about in 2000, when we were actually enjoying one of the great economic pinnacles in our history? There were in fact no reasons or justifications for the fiscal malfeasance of Reagan/Bush-41 or Bush-43. It was as if they had deliberately intended to harm the financial condition of the country.

The main issue with the OP is the way that debt is calculated. % GDP is the conventional way to measure deficits because it makes sense.
Many people just don't understand the difference between debt and deficits. Surpluses and deficits are conventionally stated in dollars and as the simple result of subtracting outlays from receipts. Debt is most often stated in simple dollars as well. There seem to be right-wingers loose and roaming the streets who think that percentages are just a statistical trick to hide what the real numbers are saying.

Debt-to-GDP ratios are commonly used by those who first understand and second are interested in a measure of the affordability of a given debt burden. Similar debt-to-income ratios are of course commonly used in mortgage underwriting. In the case of the US, one must first decide whether to include intragovernmental holdings in the calculation. Most other countries do not have such a category with 100% of their debt being held by the public. Depending on context, either including or exclduing intragovernmental holdings can be a dishonest ploy.

Reagan's deficits were ~4% GDP while Obama's are ~10% GDP.
Your claim is implicitly dishonest in that it seeks to charge Obama for declining receipts, declining GDP, and rising emergency support payments that were not the consequence of any Obama policy at all. Such dire conditions and many more were rather a direct consequence of the disastrous policies of Obama's miserably failed predecessor. Credit -- or in this case, blame -- where it is due.

Reagan and Bush-43 both accelerated base federal spending at rates approaching and at times exceeding 7% per annum. Obama has been at about half that. Reagan and Bush-43 both attempted to conjoin such enhanced spending with major tax cuts. Reagan at least awoke to the folly of his ways and reversed course in 1982, cancelling the final portion of his original tax cuts and then signing futher tax increases in 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, and 1987. It was thus with President Read-My-Lips that deficits once again spun out of control.

The mess that Obama is cleaning up is bigger, but not that much bigger, not even close.
More horrible history. The underlying economic conditions that Obama was left to deal with were grave and entirely unprecedented. The nation had never been in such a situation before. Reagan inherited fallout from a garden-variety commodity shortage that had principally been resolved by the time he took office. There is no comparison at all between 1981 and 2009. The latter was by orders of magnitude more serious.

Reagan was far more fiscally responsible than Obama.
LOL! Reagan was a budget profligate who had to be taught the error of his ways. Cut taxes, ramp up the military, and balance the budget in three years??? I don't think so. But he still did boost spending at near-record rates. Billions for Star Wars but not much for AIDS. Obama has meanwhile been trying to restore fiscal eqilibirium since the recession offiially ended. He has repeatedly over the past 18 months put packages on the table that would achieve a minimum of $4 trillion in deficit reductions over ten years. Republicans can't/won't touch them because they include modest tax increases. Who's the problem here, again?
 
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LOL! The economy was not horrible when Reagan was inaugurated. We were dealing with the tail end of an oil-price shock. We had been there and done that just six years earlier. What knocked the economy down was Reagan's own voodoo economic policies, specifically tight money that in the name of (unnecessary) inflation-fighting, slammed the door on growth and often much-needed investment, particularly in such industries as steel and autos. Conservatives are such goobers when it comes to economics.

We have of course always relied upon debt in times of national crisis. The Revolution, the Civil War, WWI, the Great Depression, WWII, and now the Great Bush Recession. What grave crisis was imperiling the nation in the 1980's? How about in 2000, when we were actually enjoying one of the great economic pinnacles in our history? There were in fact no reasons or justifications for the fiscal malfeasance of Reagan/Bush-41 or Bush-43. It was as if they had deliberately intended to harm the financial condition of the country.


Many people just don't understand the difference between debt and deficits. Surpluses and deficits are conventionally stated in dollars and as the simple result of subtracting outlays from receipts. Debt is most often stated in simple dollars as well. There seem to be right-wingers loose and roaming the streets who think that percentages are just a statistical trick to hide what the real numbers are saying.

Debt-to-GDP ratios are commonly used by those who first understand and second are interested in a measure of the affordability of a given debt burden. Similar debt-to-income ratios are of course commonly used in mortgage underwriting. In the case of the US, one must first decide whether to include intragovernmental holdings in the calculation. Most other countries do not have such a category with 100% of their debt being held by the public. Depending on context, either including or exclduing intragovernmental holdings can be a dishonest ploy.


Your claim is implicitly dishonest in that it seeks to charge Obama for declining receipts, declining GDP, and rising emergency support payments that were not the consequence of any Obama policy at all. Such dire conditions and many more were rather a direct consequence of the disastrous policies of Obama's miserably failed predecessor. Credit -- or in this case, blame -- where it is due.

Reagan and Bush-43 both accelerated base federal spending at rates approaching and at times exceeding 7% per annum. Obama has been at about half that. Reagan and Bush-43 both attempted to conjoin such enhanced spending with major tax cuts. Reagan at least awoke to the folly of his ways and reversed course in 1982, cancelling the final portion of his original tax cuts and then signing futher tax increases in 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, and 1987. It was thus with President Read-My-Lips that deficits once again spun out of control.


More horrible history. The underlying economic conditions that Obama was left to deal with were grave and entirely unprecedented. The nation had never been in such a situation before. Reagan inherited fallout from a garden-variety commodity shortage that had principally been resolved by the time he took office. There is no comparison at all between 1981 and 2009. The latter was by orders of magnitude more serious.


LOL! Reagan was a budget profligate who had to be taught the error of his ways. Cut taxes, ramp up the military, and balance the budget in three years??? I don't think so. But he still did boost spending at near-record rates. Billions for Star Wars but not much for AIDS. Obama has meanwhile been trying to restore fiscal eqilibirium since the recession offiially ended. He has repeatedly over the past 18 months put packages on the table that would achieve a minimum of $4 trillion in deficit reductions over ten years. Republicans can't/won't touch them because they include modest tax increases. Who's the problem here, again?
AIDS? Star Wars? You're drifting very far away from the OP. The OP implies that Reagan's deficits were 6x Obama's. Are you defending the OP?
 
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This is the part the radical connies (Conservatives) don't get. The President can write up and propose a budget but the Congress is the one who passes it.

If you look at it that way there is plenty of blame to spread around.
 
The arsonists who set the house on fire all live on Wall Street and have bought each successive administration since Goldman Sucks (i.e. Rubin) convinced Klinton to repeal Glass Steagall.
Get in out of the hot sun! Glass Steagall was not repealed Two sections of it were modified, first to allow the merger and joint operation of commercial banks, investment banks, securities firms, and insurance companies, and second to erase prohibitions of conflicts of interest that had been presumed in one person serving as an officer in more than one of those entities. These changes did not cause or lead to the credit crisis that spawned the Great Bush Recession. The worst that could be said of them is that they made financial frauds of many sorts more likely in the same way that paving downtown streets makes bank robberies more likely by smoothing the escape routes for potential getaway vehicles.

The actuall arsonists meanwhile did all their work between 2002 and 2006, and the cast of characters included ambitious and unscrupulous private mortgage brokers, crooked real estate appraisers, the private-label securitization shops hastily constructed and operated by major Wall Street investment banks, bewilderd and overwhelmed bond-rating agencies, and of course a bunch of worthless, asleep-at-the-wheel overseers and regulators within the Bush administration who not only failed to act against the villains of the piece, but actually supported them and egged them on.

They are hardly blaming Obummer for anything, as this admistration just announced another half trillion a year gift directly into their coffers. Did you miss that one?????
No, not hardly. What with all these dark-ages Republicans clogging up Congress, the Fed no longer has a willing partner in supporting economic recovery and has to do all of such work as may become necessary all by itself. Some of that work in fact arises from such success as Republicans have had in making matters worse, which is pretty much their only actual aim or objective at this point.
 
AIDS? Star Wars? You're drifting very far away from the OP.
I wasn't addressing the OP but rather your absurd contention that Reagan was far more fiscally responsible than Obama. In light of actual historical fact, there's at least one word in there that you can't possibly understand correctly and still make the claim.

The OP implies that Reagan's deficits were 6x Obama's. Are you defending the OP?
No. As has already been pointed out by others, the methodology employed in the OP is deeply flawed. That doesn't disprove its thesis. It only impugns this particular attempt at evidence.
 
Get in out of the hot sun! Glass Steagall was not repealed Two sections of it were modified, first to allow the merger and joint operation of commercial banks, investment banks, securities firms, and insurance companies, and second to erase prohibitions of conflicts of interest that had been presumed in one person serving as an officer in more than one of those entities. These changes did not cause or lead to the credit crisis that spawned the Great Bush Recession. The worst that could be said of them is that they made financial frauds of many sorts more likely in the same way that paving downtown streets makes bank robberies more likely by smoothing the escape routes for potential getaway vehicles.
Thanks for correcting my mis-statment, let me rephrase: Klinton COMPLETELY GUTTED Glass Steagall at the hands of Rubin - wiping out the collective wisdom paid for by the collapse of the US economy in the 1930s (note, the economy did not collapse in 1929, "the market" did). Same-same, dude.

The actuall arsonists meanwhile did all their work between 2002 and 2006, and the cast of characters included ambitious and unscrupulous private mortgage brokers, crooked real estate appraisers, the private-label securitization shops hastily constructed and operated by major Wall Street investment banks, bewilderd and overwhelmed bond-rating agencies, and of course a bunch of worthless, asleep-at-the-wheel overseers and regulators within the Bush administration who not only failed to act against the villains of the piece, but actually supported them and egged them on.
You put me in a really awkward place: I am going to have to defend Shrub and the other bunch of Uniparty puppets. Do you REALLY believe that all of this started the day that Bush got elected??????? Do you REALLY think that all of those scumbags were Repigs???? Do you not know the history from one Uniparty administration to the other of constant pressure from those same regulators to FORCE banks into lending to minorities based on nothing but the desire to seek political advantage????? Could not be pulled off the way it was without giving those with the first mortgage on the White House (Wall Street, in case you haven't been watching) absolute free reign to not only do as they wished, but a guarantee to be rewarded for their treachery, greed and failure by the tennants. Do you REALLY believe that Bush fired every regulator, enforcer and court the day he got elected?????

No, not hardly. What with all these dark-ages Republicans clogging up Congress, the Fed no longer has a willing partner in supporting economic recovery and has to do all of such work as may become necessary all by itself. Some of that work in fact arises from such success as Republicans have had in making matters worse, which is pretty much their only actual aim or objective at this point.
So, instead of dealing with reality, just printing an extra half billion and putting it directly into the hands of those who just finished crashing the economy (and it happened over a period of decades, not any one administration) is somehow seen as a SOLUTION to the problem. It IS the frigging problem! And the sock puppet at the head of the Dummycrats is holding their hand the whole way.

I guess that is what you get when your choice of leadership is between Wall Street insiders and the two-bit ambulance chasers and pettitfoggers who work for similar scum.
 
I wasn't addressing the OP but rather your absurd contention that Reagan was far more fiscally responsible than Obama. In light of actual historical fact, there's at least one word in there that you can't possibly understand correctly and still make the claim.
Obama's deficits are 2 1/2 x the size of Reagan's.





the methodology employed in the OP is deeply flawed
thank you
 
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