N.Korea executes woman for distributing Bibles

[Wiseone]

No. Let me tell you what this woman was thinking, and I can tell you because it is entirely predictable. She thought that she could bring her religion into a destitute, corrupt, impoverished nation in order to provide some kind of hope to a broken people... all the while, she showed complete disregard for the domestic law, got caught, and now she is dead. You get discovered, you die. It's that simple. It's not heroic, it's just foolish, and it doesn't change anything.

I think its pretty arrogant to believe you know what this woman was thinking. Yes she showed a complete disregard for the law, but a totally unjust law. Do you really believe that just because something is a law that it must be followed and all those who don't are in the wrong?

She was not only a fool for putting herself in danger, but she was a fool for putting everyone she came into contact with in danger. If she had managed to convert some people, what do you think would happen if those people were discovered praying or with copies of a Bible? They and their families would be sent to the shooting range, to serve as targets. These types of idealists don't seem to understand the reality of living under a crazy regime. It's about survival and doing whatever you can to not attract unwanted attention to yourself; but instead, they gallop in thinking they are rescuers, only to enable the regime to commit further violence.

Once again you're being arrogant for thinking you understand more than she does. This woman had lived her entire life in North Korea, I think she understands better than you the reality of living under a crazy regime. Honestly you are stating that you understand something which you likely don't have any experience more than someone whose experienced it everyday of their lives.

It's these kinds of cowboy tourists that put everyone at risk. The same kind of morons come to China, entering areas that the government has banned foreigners from going (like Tibetan areas), communicate with the people, try to give them hope and maybe get a snapshot of themselves in a forbidden area, and then they get caught. You know what happens then? The foreigners get sent home (much softer punishment than in NK, but I digress), and then the people of that area get stricter local rules forced down their throats.

Well I don't know about your own experiences but its interesting that you bring up China because Ive spent about 6 months in China and Tibet. And from my own experience in both China and Tibet people are extremely interested in life outside of China, especially America. Also its important that you know that Ive never met or heard of a single person in China who wasn't interested in learning about the rest of the world. And these people ask me about everything, especially guns. In a personal story this student I was talking to asked me why America let so many people have guns. I explained the original intent of the 2nd amendment was to ensure that people could arm themselves if they wished to overthrow their gov't if it became too despotic. Obviously the Chinese gov't probably wouldn't want me telling people this, but this individual had no problem with learning about it.

So no, it's not heroic. It's stupid and shortsighted.

So in my mind its just as heroic and noble as the civil rights movement in the US.

 

[rathi]

This women died while promoting a cause she believed in. Personally, I don't agree with her mission, but I give her credit for standing up to tyranny. Although not a supporter of religion, I despise those who would use executions to suppress it.

 

[Orion]

So in my mind its just as heroic and noble as the civil rights movement in the US.

I appreciate your perspective, but I still find it misguided. The key to ending tyranny in NK is China. The people of NK lack the power to overthrow their own government. They've been stripped of arms, their livelihood, and even basic things like food, water, electricity, etc.

If the woman was a true Christian, then she was propelled by its teachings to initiate others. That was the source of what she did, and it's the same reason why Christian missionaries the world over force themselves into violent territory and put their lives on the line. Their religion demands that they do it.

When religion places its own internal politics above that of the logic of the dangers of reality, it's not worth discussing. That woman not only doomed herself, but all those she spoke to. I don't find it selfless... quite the opposite, actually.

 

[Wiseone]

I appreciate your perspective, but I still find it misguided. The key to ending tyranny in NK is China. The people of NK lack the power to overthrow their own government. They've been stripped of arms, their livelihood, and even basic things like food, water, electricity, etc.

If the woman was a true Christian, then she was propelled by its teachings to initiate others. That was the source of what she did, and it's the same reason why Christian missionaries the world over force themselves into violent territory and put their lives on the line. Their religion demands that they do it.

When religion places its own internal politics above that of the logic of the dangers of reality, it's not worth discussing. That woman not only doomed herself, but all those she spoke to. I don't find it selfless... quite the opposite, actually.

I understand your point and I don't disagree with your facts. But those same facts are the reason I support her actions. For example the fact that the North Korean people have been "stripped of arms, their livelihood, and even basic things like food, water, electricity, etc" is the reason I support any action that undermines their control even in some small way.
And I don't support her for spreading her religion, even though I share it with her, I just support for doing something to undermine North Korea.

Also its an exaggeration to say she doomed everyone she's spoken to, I happen to know from personal experience there is a huge underground church in North Korea, clearly its possible to survive as a Christian in North Korea. If your curious that experience was in Dandong, Liaoning, China. Dandong is right across the Yalu river from North Korea and is home to the largest Korean population in China. Its also the hub for a lot of underground and cross border activity, legal and illegal. Anyway in Dandong there are several relief organizations, many with ties to South Korea and Christian groups, these people are obviously doing something. Also, and much more interesting, was the fact that a few Koreans I met or ran into spoke little Chinese, or just enough to exchange customers in their shop or street store. This is interesting because education in China is required up until high school, and Chinese language is part of that. Some of these people spoke less Chinese than I did, and clearly less than what a high school education would give them. I was pretty certain those people were from North Korea.
Anyway my point with all this is that the system is not ironclad, although it is pretty tight.

Lastly, I think you should realize that many people don't believe that living is worth any sacrifice. In a country where people have literally nothing, are in a near constant state of starvation, I think its worth the risk to practice a religion if only to give you hope and some strength to make it to the next day. After all, what do they have to lose? So I don't consider the preaching of any religion in North Korea as "above the logic of the dangers of reality" I actually consider it perfectly in line with reality.

Now I have no way of knowing but I suspect this woman was far more interested in spreading hope, the comfort she'd found in religion, and the ability to live and believe in something greater than yourself other than the Dear Leader, than she was interested in spreading Christianity simply because thats part of the religion.

 

[Wiseone]

But she wasn't; she broke the law in pursuit of the promotion of her religion.

No she was pursuing a civil right and a freedom which was unlawfully taken from her. The freedom to practice religion is universal and undeniable, and if promotion of the religion is part of practicing it than banning and punishing for peaceful promotion is a denial of her natural rights. She broke a unjust and illegitimate law.

 

[Orion]

Firstly, thank you for remaining civil.

I understand your point and I don't disagree with your facts. But those same facts are the reason I support her actions. For example the fact that the North Korean people have been "stripped of arms, their livelihood, and even basic things like food, water, electricity, etc" is the reason I support any action that undermines their control even in some small way.
And I don't support her for spreading her religion, even though I share it with her, I just support for doing something to undermine North Korea.

Also its an exaggeration to say she doomed everyone she's spoken to, I happen to know from personal experience there is a huge underground church in North Korea, clearly its possible to survive as a Christian in North Korea. If your curious that experience was in Dandong, Liaoning, China. Dandong is right across the Yalu river from North Korea and is home to the largest Korean population in China. Its also the hub for a lot of underground and cross border activity, legal and illegal. Anyway in Dandong there are several relief organizations, many with ties to South Korea and Christian groups, these people are obviously doing something. Also, and much more interesting, was the fact that a few Koreans I met or ran into spoke little Chinese, or just enough to exchange customers in their shop or street store. This is interesting because education in China is required up until high school, and Chinese language is part of that. Some of these people spoke less Chinese than I did, and clearly less than what a high school education would give them. I was pretty certain those people were from North Korea.
Anyway my point with all this is that the system is not ironclad, although it is pretty tight.

Lastly, I think you should realize that many people don't believe that living is worth any sacrifice. In a country where people have literally nothing, are in a near constant state of starvation, I think its worth the risk to practice a religion if only to give you hope and some strength to make it to the next day. After all, what do they have to lose? So I don't consider the preaching of any religion in North Korea as "above the logic of the dangers of reality" I actually consider it perfectly in line with reality.

Now I have no way of knowing but I suspect this woman was far more interested in spreading hope, the comfort she'd found in religion, and the ability to live and believe in something greater than yourself other than the Dear Leader, than she was interested in spreading Christianity simply because thats part of the religion.

Most of what you've said I'm already aware of, as I live in China currently and have lived here several years ago as well. (Actually I'm on vacation in Nepal at the moment, but you get the idea.) When I see outsiders move into a restricted area controlled by tyrannical governments in order to bring supplies and try to lend help, I am highly skeptical. More often it leads to more harm than good.

A good example is a small group of Americans that I met in Western Sichuan just a few weeks ago. They went into Xiahe, the town with the most Tibetan Monastery outside of Tibet within Chinese borders, and the former center of the pre-Olympic protests. Obviously that region is restricted. They were bragging about how they scoffed the rules and managed to get into the monastery zone with supplies, and transmitted messages to the outside. The only thing is they got caught... and now the people in Xiahe have an even stricter curfew, and there are now military guards stationed permanently INSIDE the monastery.

I will give the woman who died in NK some credit for the simple fact that she herself is NK, thus she would be propelled to help her own people; but I have little respect for Christian outsiders who are so righteous that they think their values are somehow going to change things for the people on the inside. I have a fairly low opinion of missionaries in general, except for the ones that establish large resource centers (i.e. in South America) for long-term support. Those that simply distribute Bibles are relatively useless to aid causes, and in the case of NK, the Bible is not going to solve anything. If Christians are smuggling in supplies along with the good word, then at least they are helping the resource crisis. Otherwise, they need to butt out, as their presence is only creating further danger for those living under the regime.

Furthermore, NK makes a prime target for evangelists because it reeks of desperation. This is mainly why I have a low opinion of missionaries. They are failures in the developed world because the educated don't fall for it, but they will go to the ends of the earth where people are suffering terribly due to politics, in order to get that one convert. And it's all because their religion expects it of them, just like Muslims are expected to go to Mecca once in their lifetime. It's for selfish reasons.

 

[Orion]

No she was pursuing a civil right and a freedom which was unlawfully taken from her. The freedom to practice religion is universal and undeniable, and if promotion of the religion is part of practicing it than banning and punishing for peaceful promotion is a denial of her natural rights. She broke a unjust and illegitimate law.

I agree with you in principle, but in reality those are Western values. The UN was founded by the Western nations and its charter of freedoms was based on Western values. Don't forget that merely hundreds of years ago, most of the Western nations were rife with persecution of all groups, from women, to religious groups, to homosexuals, etc. People were thrown in jail, maimed, or killed simply for being who they were or what they believed.

You can't expect the entire world to conform to our current Western values just because our nations have now arrived at them, as if we know better. These things take time... and who knows, maybe not every country even wants our form of human rights? Lord knows that the Western world exploits plenty of nations who have low human rights records, all for our own benefit. If NK was economically open and had cheap labour (like in China), you can bet that every Western manufacturer would have offices there.

 

[Wiseone]

I understand what you mean about the monasteries, and I know what you mean when you talk about those guys who go there and jeopardize a lot, especially when they are doing it just for kicks and aren't even trying to help in anyway.
I was in Tibet in 07 and 09, in 07 I went to Sera monastery outside of Lhasa when I came back in 09 that was one of the places I was really dying to see again. But the place was closed off because of the riots in 08. I was so disappointed, I'd waited 2 years to come back damn it! But I didn't do anything illegal so I missed out on seeing it again.
I still have to disagree with you, but I'm afraid I can't really add anything to my argument that I haven't already said. But I really think you should reconsider what you think is worth risking one's life for. These preacher won't overthrow North Korea but they can improve the quality of life for some of these people with nothing to lose.

Also I'm not trying to suggest that the world should convert to Western values or models. But I do think some values and rights are universal. For example I think if China had a true democratic system we both know their system wouldn't be the same as America's because of the cultural differences. I think it would be much more centrist, wouldn't grant as many freedoms as the US, and their nationalistic pride would certainly continue. But I'm sure their system would be peaceful, which is all I expect from them. So while I don't expect or want everyone to adopt Western values or models I think things like self-determination, self-government, freedom of religion are universal rights.

 

[Sanitas]

North Korea needs to be universally condemned for their oppression of Christianity.

Prayers for her bereaved and imprisoned family.

North Korea isn't known for their oppression of Christianity. They are known for their oppression to anything that seems out of line whatsoever to their hard-line communist regime. All they really want to do is make an intimidating look for themselves, really.

I hope the citizens will find condolence when the regime falls.

 

[Dogger807]

This women died while promoting a cause she believed in. Personally, I don't agree with her mission, but I give her credit for standing up to tyranny. Although not a supporter of religion, I despise those who would use executions to suppress it.

I second that. Well said.

 

[Khayembii Communique]

North Korea isn't known for their oppression of Christianity. They are known for their oppression to anything that seems out of line whatsoever to their hard-line communist regime. All they really want to do is make an intimidating look for themselves, really.

*sigh*

:roll:

The DPRK broke with any semblance of Marxism when it adopted Juche.

ten characters

 

[Sanitas]

Okay, I'll give you that. What should I call them than? A totalitarian dynasty?

 

[Khayembii Communique]

Okay, I'll give you that. What should I call them than?

Whatever you want that's not wrong.

 

[hiswoman]

Whatever you want that's not wrong.

I'm thinking something along the lines of delusional sociopathic oppressive nutcases would fit the bill.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

That's a mouthful. Why not Jucheists, since it's what they call themselves?

Or stick with Communists for that matter, because no matter how much they say that Communist regimes aren't "real Communism", that's exactly what they get every time they try to create real Communism.

 

[Khayembii Communique]

Or stick with Communists for that matter, because no matter how much they say that Communist regimes aren't "real Communism", that's exactly what they get every time they try to create real Communism.

You might as well start calling the Nazi's communists for being national socialists.:roll:

Sorry, but this argument just doesn't work. Juche is a neo-Confucian ideology that has absolutely nothing to do with Marxism.

That's a mouthful. Why not Jucheists, since it's what they call themselves?

There you go. Or just call them the North Korean government.

 

[Toothpicvic]

North Korea needs to be universally condemned for their oppression of Christianity.

Agreed, but fundamentalist Christianity needs to be universally condemned for brainwashing people into being as stupid as her.

Prayers for her bereaved and imprisoned family.

I pray that they'll get over their mental retardation.

 

[Ikari]

North Korea needs to be universally condemned for their oppression of Christianity.

Prayers for her bereaved and imprisoned family.

I wouldn't say they should be condemned for oppression of Christianity, but rather for infringing upon the right of the individual to believe and express the religion of their choice. But then again, it's also a commie nation, and you're not really in good company there for the protection and proliferation of the rights and liberties of the individual there. One more reason why communism sucks.

 

[Morality Games]

The general posturing in this thread just goes to show that nobody really emphasizes with anybody anymore. Let's all serve ourselves and our own beliefs a little more and not think about how frightening it must be to about to be killed without knowing the fate of your family.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

The general posturing in this thread just goes to show that nobody really emphasizes with anybody anymore. Let's all serve ourselves and our own beliefs a little more and not think about how frightening it must be to about to be killed without knowing the fate of your family.

It's terrible, but a billion terrible things happen every single day. Why should I waste my limited emotional energies empathizing with a woman whose life and death has nothing to do with me or the fortunes of my family? You spend too much energy on people who are distant, and you start to neglect the ones that are closest, and it is to the latter that we owe our moral obligations.

Furthermore, she chose to speak the word of Christ in a nation that does not allow for the words of anyone but Kim, and she either knew what the consequences of getting caught were, or she was a moron.

I am choosing to hold the more charitable opinion, that she knew what she was doing and took the risk-- dying a good death for standing for her beliefs-- rather than that she was a poor, innocent victim of an "evil" government.

 

[Toothpicvic]

Wonder how many starving kids she could've fed with the money she spent on Bibles?

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

Wonder how many starving kids she could've fed with the money she spent on Bibles?

Quite a few, most likely. But why would she do this? Her concern was spreading her religion, or to be charitable about it, feeding the souls of the people she was reaching out to. She thought they needed religion, so she went over there and offered it to them.

If you think they need food more than religion, why don't you see how many people you can feed with the money you have?

 

[Toothpicvic]

Quite a few, most likely. But why would she do this? Her concern was spreading her religion, or to be charitable about it, feeding the souls of the people she was reaching out to. She thought they needed religion, so she went over there and offered it to them.

If you think they need food more than religion, why don't you see how many people you can feed with the money you have?

Didn't Jesus feed a crowd of people with 3 loaves and 2 fish? I mean, why didn't he just turn the loaves and fish into Bibles instead? Aren't people souls more important than whether they have enough to eat each day?

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

Didn't Jesus feed a crowd of people with 3 loaves and 2 fish? I mean, why didn't he just turn the loaves and fish into Bibles instead? Aren't people souls more important than whether they have enough to eat each day?

Obviously, Jesus felt otherwise at the time. Perhaps he felt that the souls of those people were already adequately nourished, or that he'd have better opportunity to nourish their souls tomorrow if their bodies were fed today. As much as I'm in the habit of disagreeing with Jesus, I'm not normally given to second-guessing him. He was the man on the ground, giving aid to those people as he saw fit.

In this case, Mrs. Ri was the woman on the ground, again giving aid as she saw fit. She was in a better position to assess her neighbors' needs than I would be, and in any case was far more interested in her neighbors' well-being than I am.

 

[Goshin]

Agreed, but fundamentalist Christianity needs to be universally condemned for brainwashing people into being as stupid as her.


I pray that they'll get over their mental retardation.

Your irrational hatred and bile has been duly noted, and will be duly ignored.