My Thoughts on Trans Pronoun Usage

[NatMorton]

What?

You said "Donald Trump prefers to be called the winner of the 2020 Presidential election. Do you think it would be a lie to call him that?"

Yes, it would be a lie to call him the winner because he lost. Anyone, not just me, can prove it because we had this whole thing where we counted the votes, and he lost.

So again, what exactly are you trying to prove? Did that post you screenshot involve me saying "You can't prove Trump didn't win the election"?

My point is that there are Trump supporters who honestly believe he won. You are not disrespecting such people simply because you don't agree with them that Trump won. It's no different that meeting a trans woman. I can respect him without having to join in to the pretense that he is a woman, even though he may honestly believe he is one.

The correct pronouns are the ones they are asking me to use.

In my opinion, no, they are not. They are the ones that match the individual's gender, not merely their gender identity. I do not demand they adopt my prefered definition of gender and approach to pronoun usage, so I fail to see why I must submit to theirs (or yours).

 

[NatMorton]

To the OP, do you find this to be a major problem? I mean, have you actually been asked by someone?

No, it's not a major problem. In fact, I wouldn't even call it a problem, though others sure seem to have a problem with it.

 

[NatMorton]

Your post was dripping with hate.

An assertion you have not proven (and let's be honest, won't prove).

 

[Jredbaron96]

My point is that there are Trump supporters who honestly believe he won. You are not disrespecting such people simply because you don't agree with them that Trump won. It's no different that meeting a trans woman. I can respect him without having to join in to the pretense that he is a woman, even though he may honestly believe he is one.

This is a false equivalence. The outcome of an election is not a matter of personal identity, it's an objective materialistic determination.

If I said "You only voted for Trump because you're a racist", that would be more equivalent, because I'm making a claim about their person-hood.

In my opinion, no, they are not. They are the ones that match the individual's gender, not merely their gender identity.

They are telling you their gender.

I do not demand they adopt my prefered definition of gender and approach to pronoun usage, so I fail to see why I must submit to theirs (or yours).

This is another false equivalence. Even if you use their preferred pronouns, that doesn't necessarily convey your believe in their gender identity. That's somewhat we would call "common courtesy".

 

[noonereal]

An assertion you have not proven (and let's be honest, won't prove).

Read it. Its all there. Good grief. If you want to say hateful things, own them.

 

[NatMorton]

This is a false equivalence. The outcome of an election is not a matter of personal identity, it's an objective materialistic determination.

And I believe gender is similarly objective. In fact, I would say the odds, not matter how remote, are better that Trump won in 2020 than, say, Lia Thomas is a woman.

If I said "You only voted for Trump because you're a racist", that would be more equivalent, because I'm making a claim about their person-hood.

No, the equivalent of that would be "You only called Lia Thomas 'he' because you're a hateful bigot." (charges that have been made in this thread, BTW).

They are telling you their gender.

Agreed, when someone says "I am a trans woman" they are saying they are male, whether that is their intention or not.

This is another false equivalence. Even if you use their preferred pronouns, that doesn't necessarily convey your believe in their gender identity. That's somewhat we would call "common courtesy".

Gender is no more "preferred' than are election results. They're both facts, and I find nothing courteous in lying about a fact.

 

[NatMorton]

Read it. Its all there. Good grief. If you want to say hateful things, own them.

No, it's not. You're simply making it up because you don't know what else to say other than ad hominem.

 

[Jredbaron96]

And I believe gender is similarly objective.

You are free to *believe* that, and it doesn't match up with what our current body of knowledge says.

Agreed, when someone says "I am a trans woman" they are saying they are male, whether that is their intention or not.

Transwomen are women.

Gender is no more "preferred' than are election results.

Sure, I guess it's true you "prefer" certain things about gender. But like election results, simply believing something doesn't make it true.

They're both facts, and I find nothing courteous in lying about a fact.

You keep saying facts as if you are speaking them. You are not. You are giving your opinion about gender and what you think it is.

Referring to someone by the pronouns they prefer is no different then referring to someone using the proper pronunciation of their name or their preferred suffix.

 

[Davin]

Is calling Robert "Bob" a lie?

Where do you get "Bob" from "Robert"? It's made up. So why are you ok with Bob and not pronouns from other?

 

[noonereal]

No, it's not. You're simply making it up because you don't know what else to say other than ad hominem.

Don't post what you feel shamed by if thats your issue.

 

[MrWonka]

As so often happens on this topic, and just recently in an other thread this morning, someone has again attempted to lecture me about the evils of using the “wrong” pronouns. They claim it is disrespectful. I disagree, because what I find even more disrespectful is to lie to someone, even if they wish to be lied to.

That's weird because if I told you the truth about yourself on this website, the moderators would report and reprimand me.
Someone around here seems to think we should show each other respect, even when we know full well that other posters don't deserve it.

 

[Mithrae]

Where do you get "Bob" from "Robert"? It's made up. So why are you ok with Bob and not pronouns from other?

Agreed. An even better example is people from other countries who adopt anglo names without any precedent.

There is of course ample historical precedent (even within English, and even moreso in languages like Spanish or French) for gendered terms such as he/she and man/woman referring to something other than sex; God is 'he,' ships are 'she,' humanity as a whole is 'man' or 'he,' and in other languages innumerable inanimate objects are given gender. All of which has been pointed out innumerable times to @NatMorton and others, of course, but they still insist upon not only an ethnocentric/English language bias, but a selectively-chosen bias at that, dishonestly pretending that these English words only refer to sex when that has literally never been the case in the past!

 

[NatMorton]

Transwomen are women.

Fake breasts and a confused mind do not a woman make.

 

[NatMorton]

Where do you get "Bob" from "Robert"? It's made up. So why are you ok with Bob and not pronouns from other?

One’s name is a presence. One’s gender is not.

 

[NatMorton]

Don't post what you feel shamed by if thats your issue.

I don’t feel shame. I’m simply calling out the fact that you’re lying about my post.

Either you can demonstrate my post is hateful or you cannot. Which is it?

 

[NatMorton]

That's weird because if I told you the truth about yourself on this website, the moderators would report and reprimand me.

That presumes you know “the truth,” but I think we both know what you’re itching to do is make a personal attack.

Someone around here seems to think we should show each other respect, even when we know full well that other posters don't deserve it.

Do tell. Why do you think I don’t deserve respect?

 

[NatMorton]

Agreed. An even better example is people from other countries who adopt anglo names without any precedent.

There is of course ample historical precedent (even within English, and even moreso in languages like Spanish or French) for gendered terms such as he/she and man/woman referring to something other than sex; God is 'he,' ships are 'she,' humanity as a whole is 'man' or 'he,' and in other languages innumerable inanimate objects are given gender. All of which has been pointed out innumerable times to @NatMorton and others, of course, but they still insist upon not only an ethnocentric/English language bias, but a selectively-chosen bias at that, dishonestly pretending that these English words only refer to sex when that has literally never been the case in the past!

This is nonsense. If there is no binding between pronoun and gender why do so many take offense over trans people being “misgendered?”

 

[Jredbaron96]

Fake breasts and a confused mind do not a woman make.

You reveal yourself very easily yet wonder why you get dismissed.

 

[NatMorton]

You reveal yourself very easily yet wonder why you get dismissed.

Yes, I have made my opinions on this matter clear. That you think you’re in a position to “dismiss” me is of absolutely no concern.

 

[Jredbaron96]

Yes, I have made my opinions on this matter clear.

You're right, it is just your opinion. One that doesn't track with the body of knowledge we have, but you insist on debating it still.

 

[Davin]

One’s name is a presence. One’s gender is not.

Says a lying trump supporter.

 

[NatMorton]

You're right, it is just your opinion. One that doesn't track with the body of knowledge we have, but you insist on debating it still.

But of course you’ve arrived here not with opinions but with only objective truths, yes?

 

[Hypothetical]

I have no problem in calling someone by their pronouns as long as they are as polite about it as I am being in doing so.

IOTW, they should not get snitty if I accidentally do not call them correctly before I know, or whatever.

I do not believe , however, that they get to do everything actual Women do , just because they believe in their pronouns.

 

[Jredbaron96]

But of course you’ve arrived here not with opinions but with only objective truths, yes?

I will be the first to admit that I am still very much ignorant of many things surrounding the trans community and being transgender. I didn't really have much stake in the debate until I did a paper in college about the day care sex abuse hysteria and realized the similarities between the ongoing moral panic regarding trans people.

But I digress. Your statement that someone who is trans is just confused in the brain (you mentioned only trans women but I believe I am safe in presuming you feel similar on trans men) reveals your dishonest attempts at having a dialouge.

The body of evidence we have about why trans people are trans is limited, that is true. It's also true that what evidence we have reveals actual, observable differences between trans people and cisgender people, including both genetics and brain structure, that suggest there is an innate causality to why some people are transgender. An honest discussion about this would require going into detail about what we know, but as evident from your posts in this thread your main interest appears to be presenting your opinion and refusing to entertain notions to the contrary.

 

[roguenuke]

No, I am choosing the definition of gender that means sex. See post 241.

That's not how language works. You don't get to dismiss other definitions, that you even acknowledge do exist, as if they aren't there at all simply because you don't like those definitions.