My take on abortion...

[scourge99]

Because that is not what this thread is about.....Its about killing, innocent defenseless babies in the womb not about children already born.

I will tell you one thing if you ask all those poor children in orphanages who they had rather been butchered in the womb then born I would be willing to bet that to a child that would all say they would rather be born.........You see when your born you may not be in the best of circumstances but your alive........Where there is life there is hope.......Think about it........Maybe put yourself in their situation.........

Using this same logic then we should feel horrified at the quadrillions of people that would be happy to be alive but aren't. The "people" I am talking about are the sperm and eggs that never achieve conception for one reason or another. Surely they would ALL be happy to be alive.:roll:

 

[1069]

Using this same logic then we should feel horrified at the quadrillions of people that would be happy to be alive but aren't. The "people" I am talking about are the sperm and eggs that never achieve conception for one reason or another. Surely they would ALL be happy to be alive.:roll:

Oh, the humanity...!

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Oh, the humanity...!

HEY!!! That's MY line. :mrgreen:

 

[Navy Pride]

I wish it would be a requirement for every adult in this country to witness the miracle of birth..........I know it would not change the mind of thr hard core abortion believers in this thread but I bet it would change the mind of thousands of people who are on the fence and open to reason on this issue..........

 

[scourge99]

I wish it would be a requirement for every adult in this country to witness the miracle of birth..........I know it would not change the mind of thr hard core abortion believers in this thread but I bet it would change the mind of thousands of people who are on the fence and open to reason on this issue..........

In other words, lets try to derail intelligent debate with petty emotional appeals. If we wanted that we could just listen to the pundits on FOX news. :sarcasticclap

 

[Navy Pride]

In other words, lets try to derail intelligent debate with petty emotional appeals. If we wanted that we could just listen to the pundits on FOX news. :sarcasticclap

Its obvious you care not for the innocent unborn and have never witnessed the miracle of birth.........Te hard core abortionists like you was not at who that post was directed like I said.........

I know it would not change the mind of thr hard core abortion believers in this thread

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Because that is not what this thread is about.....Its about killing, innocent defenseless babies in the womb not about children already born.

I will tell you one thing if you ask all those poor children in orphanages who they had rather been butchered in the womb then born I would be willing to bet that to a child that would all say they would rather be born.........You see when your born you may not be in the best of circumstances but your alive........Where there is life there is hope.......Think about it........Maybe put yourself in their situation.........

I am not saying its right but couples want to adopt new borns......that is a fact............I have friends who waited 3 years to adopt, finally gave up and adopted a child from South Korea.......

You brought up the issue of adoption, NP, so you can't pick and choose or cut and run with it. It's there, and since you presented it, you need to defend it.

One of your positions is that many couples are waiting for a child to adopt, hence abortions rob them of that. I have shown that there are many children waiting for adoption right now, that don't get adopted. Whether a family wants a newborn or not is IRRELEVANT to the position. There are children waiting to be adopted. People could take them, right now. Increased abortions do not change that. Your position on this is, hence, totally refuted.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

Most couples also prefer to adopt a healthy, white infant without special needs or disabilities. That is what the "three year waiting period" NP refers to is for. Healthy white newborns.

And plenty of white couples would be perfectly happy to adopt non-white children-- but are not allowed to, by a system that thinks being raised "among their own" is more important than being raised by a family.

I'll give you the problem with older children and disabled children. But we shouldn't pretend that non-white children are unadoptable, while there are suitable couples who wish to adopt them but cannot.

Adoptive couples wouldn't have wanted them any more than their mothers did. Society wouldn't have wanted them. And we all know it.

Hell, that's the root of our entire problem right there-- our society does not properly value children. It seems that the only people who truly understand what children are worth are people who cannot have them.

So what? It's not any individual woman's obligation to endure pregnancy/childbirth and the emotional trauma that follows giving up a child for adoption in order to satisfy some other woman's desire for a child.

It may not-- and should never be-- obligatory, but I think it is a very noble thing for them to do. It is a sacrifice they should be honored for... and I don't really think people on either side of this argument really does so.

I wish it would be a requirement for every adult in this country to witness the miracle of birth...

Its obvious you care not for the innocent unborn and have never witnessed the miracle of birth...

Yeah. Uhm... the most vocal pro-choice contingent on this thread consists of women who have seen the miracle of birth, multiple times. They have children of their own, who they love and support.

Hell, I love children, and I wish to have children of my own some day. Of all of my goals, and even my megalomaniac pipe dreams, it is my desire to raise a family that is most important.

This statement has nothing to do with reason or good argument. It's not even a particularly effective emotional ploy-- as evinced by the number of adamant pro-choicers who have already given birth, of their own free will.

My question for you is, have you ever witnessed the miracle of a child being born severely deformed or addicted to drugs? Have you witnessed the miracle of children living in poverty, or the miracle of unwanted children being regularly abused and degraded? Have you witnessed the miracle of a twelve-year-old girl dying on the operating table because she's just too damned young-- her body is too small-- to support a pregnancy and give birth?

Of course, such "arguments" would never sway the most hardcore pro-lifers like you...

 

[tecoyah]

I wish it would be a requirement for every adult in this country to witness the miracle of birth..........I know it would not change the mind of thr hard core abortion believers in this thread but I bet it would change the mind of thousands of people who are on the fence and open to reason on this issue..........

Thing is Navy....you still don't get it at all. Hell I DELIVERED two of my kids in unassisted homebirths, but for some odd reason I still can't see myself taking away the freedoms of some woman I have never met...go figure.

 

[RatedPanda]

My whole point with NP's reply wasn't so much the amount of children waiting to be adopted, but specifically about the CARE of them that are NOT adopted. So someone is against abortion on morale grounds? Ok...but then what about that baby's care after it's born? When it grows up, which programs are we going to have to ensure it's well being, since we didn't allow the mother to abort it? Why is it, after the fetus has grown into a baby, that most conservatives seem to abandon their morale grounds. To me, it seems the FETUS was more important to those pro-lifers then the actual baby itself. Why is it these pro-lifers are ALSO against any type of tax program to support these babies left up for adoption?[/QUOTE]

Please provide a link for that statement.........I belong to a church that supports a home for unwed mothers.......I contribute to that support............

I believe your response is evidence enough. Your church is (thankfully) not part of our government, therefore it is not a tax program. While I salute the valiant effort you and your church do, it still fails to address my claim. Why is it that conservative pro-lifers are against any type of tax sponsored program to ensure the well-being of these unwanted babies AFTER their born? What happened to protecting the innocent life then?

Also, this is no personal attack on your NP. Maybe you DO support such a tax based program, I don't know. But I do find that most people who hold your strong views about abortion typically do NOT support any such tax program. It's a "defend the fetus, then it's someone else's problem" type of view, and THATS what I was trying to address.

 

[OKgrannie]

I wish it would be a requirement for every adult in this country to witness the miracle of birth..........I know it would not change the mind of thr hard core abortion believers in this thread but I bet it would change the mind of thousands of people who are on the fence and open to reason on this issue..........

I wish it could be a requirement for every anti-choice man in the country to experience the miracle of pregnancy/childbirth...and then going home from the hospital to care for a new baby and small children. Here's some of what he could expect:

THE EFFECTS OF PREGNANCY - complications of pregnancy
Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks), altered appetite and senses of taste and smell, nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester) , heartburn and indigestion, constipation, weight gain, dizziness and light-headedness, bloating, swelling, fluid retention, hemmorhoids, abdominal cramps, yeast infections, congested, bloody nose, acne and mild skin disorders, skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen), mild to severe backache and strain, increased headaches, difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping. increased urination and incontinence, bleeding gums, pica, breast pain and discharge, swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint pain, difficulty sitting, standing in later pregnancy, inability to take regular medications, shortness of breath, higher blood pressure, hair loss, tendency to anemia, curtailment of ability to participate in some sports and activities,
infection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
(pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases),
extreme pain on delivery, hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression, continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)

Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

stretch marks (worse in younger women), loose skin, permanent weight gain or redistribution, abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness, pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life), changes to breasts,
varicose veins, scarring from episiotomy or c-section, other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty), increased proclivity for hemmorhoids, loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)

 

[Navy Pride]

You brought up the issue of adoption, NP, so you can't pick and choose or cut and run with it. It's there, and since you presented it, you need to defend it.

One of your positions is that many couples are waiting for a child to adopt, hence abortions rob them of that. I have shown that there are many children waiting for adoption right now, that don't get adopted. Whether a family wants a newborn or not is IRRELEVANT to the position. There are children waiting to be adopted. People could take them, right now. Increased abortions do not change that. Your position on this is, hence, totally refuted.

I did not bring up the topic at all until someone mentioned the orphans.........

I also said that to a person all of those children's in orphanages would prefer that then being killed in the womb.........Do you deny that?

Your side says that babies being born will go unwanted and end up in orphanges.......I showed you where that is wrong that none will..........

You have refuted nothing...........

 

[Navy Pride]

And plenty of white couples would be perfectly happy to adopt non-white children-- but are not allowed to, by a system that thinks being raised "among their own" is more important than being raised by a family.

I'll give you the problem with older children and disabled children. But we shouldn't pretend that non-white children are unadoptable, while there are suitable couples who wish to adopt them but cannot.



Hell, that's the root of our entire problem right there-- our society does not properly value children. It seems that the only people who truly understand what children are worth are people who cannot have them.



It may not-- and should never be-- obligatory, but I think it is a very noble thing for them to do. It is a sacrifice they should be honored for... and I don't really think people on either side of this argument really does so.





Yeah. Uhm... the most vocal pro-choice contingent on this thread consists of women who have seen the miracle of birth, multiple times. They have children of their own, who they love and support.

Hell, I love children, and I wish to have children of my own some day. Of all of my goals, and even my megalomaniac pipe dreams, it is my desire to raise a family that is most important.

This statement has nothing to do with reason or good argument. It's not even a particularly effective emotional ploy-- as evinced by the number of adamant pro-choicers who have already given birth, of their own free will.

My question for you is, have you ever witnessed the miracle of a child being born severely deformed or addicted to drugs? Have you witnessed the miracle of children living in poverty, or the miracle of unwanted children being regularly abused and degraded? Have you witnessed the miracle of a twelve-year-old girl dying on the operating table because she's just too damned young-- her body is too small-- to support a pregnancy and give birth?

Of course, such "arguments" would never sway the most hardcore pro-lifers like you...

And as I said my post was not addressed at them...............They are set in their ways that killing innocent babies in the womb is fine...........My post was to people that might be on the fence about abortion........I truly believe that if they saw the miracle of birth they might come down on the side of pro life............Abortionists don't like to hear it but the tide is turning in the war against abortion in this country..............More and more people are seeing how horrible it really is and are coming down on the side of pro life.........

 

[Navy Pride]

Thing is Navy....you still don't get it at all. Hell I DELIVERED two of my kids in unassisted homebirths, but for some odd reason I still can't see myself taking away the freedoms of some woman I have never met...go figure.

How many times do I have to say this? That post was not directed at people like you who think its ok to kill innocent, defenseless babies in the womb.........

 

[Navy Pride]

I believe your response is evidence enough. Your church is (thankfully) not part of our government, therefore it is not a tax program. While I salute the valiant effort you and your church do, it still fails to address my claim. Why is it that conservative pro-lifers are against any type of tax sponsored program to ensure the well-being of these unwanted babies AFTER their born? What happened to protecting the innocent life then?

Also, this is no personal attack on your NP. Maybe you DO support such a tax based program, I don't know. But I do find that most people who hold your strong views about abortion typically do NOT support any such tax program. It's a "defend the fetus, then it's someone else's problem" type of view, and THATS what I was trying to address.

This whole thread is about unborn babies..............How to take care of the sad plight of orphans is another thread........

That said I think individual states and charitable organizations and churches should be the organizations that support orphanages...........It is not the responsible of the federal government the same as abortion isn't....

 

[Navy Pride]

I wish it could be a requirement for every anti-choice man in the country to experience the miracle of pregnancy/childbirth...and then going home from the hospital to care for a new baby and small children. Here's some of what he could expect:

THE EFFECTS OF PREGNANCY - complications of pregnancy
Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks), altered appetite and senses of taste and smell, nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester) , heartburn and indigestion, constipation, weight gain, dizziness and light-headedness, bloating, swelling, fluid retention, hemmorhoids, abdominal cramps, yeast infections, congested, bloody nose, acne and mild skin disorders, skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen), mild to severe backache and strain, increased headaches, difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping. increased urination and incontinence, bleeding gums, pica, breast pain and discharge, swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint pain, difficulty sitting, standing in later pregnancy, inability to take regular medications, shortness of breath, higher blood pressure, hair loss, tendency to anemia, curtailment of ability to participate in some sports and activities,
infection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
(pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases),
extreme pain on delivery, hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression, continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)

Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

stretch marks (worse in younger women), loose skin, permanent weight gain or redistribution, abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness, pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life), changes to breasts,
varicose veins, scarring from episiotomy or c-section, other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty), increased proclivity for hemmorhoids, loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)

Again there is very little excuse for unwanted pregnancies in this day and age........There are so many means of contraception, but the main one is keep your legs closed if you don't want to get pregnant.........

 

[tecoyah]

Again there is very little excuse for unwanted pregnancies in this day and age........There are so many means of contraception, but the main one is keep your legs closed if you don't want to get pregnant.........

And of course....you were a responsible young man in your day, and abstained from sexual gratification less you intended to get your wife pregnant...correct?

If so...you are a better (or uglier) man than I.

 

[OKgrannie]

Again there is very little excuse for unwanted pregnancies in this day and age........There are so many means of contraception, but the main one is keep your legs closed if you don't want to get pregnant.........

Half of all pregnancies are unplanned. Do you really think that proportion would be so high if contraception was reliable?

 

[Navy Pride]

Half of all pregnancies are unplanned. Do you really think that proportion would be so high if contraception was reliable?

Most contraceptives are very reliable but if eveyone that did not want to have a baby used them imagine how many abortions would be eliminated...........It would be in the millions..........

 

[Navy Pride]

And of course....you were a responsible young man in your day, and abstained from sexual gratification less you intended to get your wife pregnant...correct?

If so...you are a better (or uglier) man than I.

No I did not...............

 

[talloulou]

Half of all pregnancies are unplanned. Do you really think that proportion would be so high if contraception was reliable?

Well lets see almost half the couples having abortions claim to have used nothing. Then a majority of the half that claimed to use anything claimed to have used that something inconsistently during the month. You can lead a horse to water....:roll:

 

[tecoyah]

No I did not...............

OK...so you have decided that women should simply keep legs closed, yet you yourself took advantage of the fact they do not.....hmmmmmmmm

 

[Navy Pride]

OK...so you have decided that women should simply keep legs closed, yet you yourself took advantage of the fact they do not.....hmmmmmmmm

I am married............Every child my wife had was a miracle and a gift from God......

 

[tecoyah]

I am married............Every child my wife had was a miracle and a gift from God......

I was referring to those who came before your beloved wife

 

[Felicity]

Most contraceptives are very reliable but if eveyone that did not want to have a baby used them imagine how many abortions would be eliminated...........It would be in the millions..........

The availability (without moral guidance) of contraceptives promotes the type of behaviors that lead to unintended pregnancies that lead to abortion--the Supreme Court ADMITS this FACT in legal ruling.

The claim that the MORE contraception, or BETTER contraception is the answer is failing to face the societal causes. It ain't gonna get better until people start respecting the responsibilities that are inherent when engaging in sexual behaviors.