My take on abortion...

[jallman]

Look anecdotal stories are just that. It could very well be true. Either way it's irrelevant as the vast overwhelming majority of couples scheduling an abortion claim to have either used a birth control method inconsistently or not at all. Tecoyah's personal story does nothing to change that fact. My belief or disbelief is meaningless to the discussion.

YOUR disbelief, when taken alone, is meaningless. Your disbelief, when added to the chorus of disbelief and misogynistic attitudes shown in this very thread, is significant.

Basically, I'm convinced lately that the whole argument is what it is because a bunch of patriarchal, woman hating gargoyles are all butt-hurt because some women found a measure of control over their lives that excluded men from participating.

 

[talloulou]

Saying that birth control is not 100% effective is not the same as saying it's NOT effective. After all, if no BC is used, 85% of women will get pregnant within one year. It's just that 1 or 2% adds up to a lot of unwanted pregnancies.

Saying every woman is bound to have 3 unintended pregnancies despite best uses of the available birth control methods is just rot.

I am so tired of hearing that from people who have been LUCKY, at least so far, with their BC methods. I know people who have parented children born AFTER being FIXED. Some people are more fertile and for them it IS HARD to NOT get pregnant.

I agree. You're right. Everyone has heard about the vasectomy or tubal that failed overtime.

However, you still can't genuinely say that most couples are being as responsible as they can when the couples in question assert in an overwhelming massive majority that they either used nothing or used something inconsistently throughout the month.

That is not trying hard.

Perhaps that info is great for trying to develop forms of b.c. that are more likely to be used consistently however the onus is on the user to actually use it consistently. You can't have couples claiming to use nothing or claiming to use something erratically during the course of the month and still claim they are doing their best and it's the birth control that is failing. Obviously if they used nothing, which sadly the numbers for that are great, it's their fault. If they used something inconsistently, (76% of the ones who claim to have used anything) then still the improvement of the situation must come from them and it's not the fault of ineffective birth control so much as it's human error. And they CAN do better. To claim they can't and conclude birth control is ineffective and every woman who enjoys an active sex life can expect 3 unwanted pregnancies in her lifetime does a disservice to women and men alike. That's a faulty conclusion.

I am all for DILIGENCE in BC, but I recognize that diligence will still allow some pregnancies. I also don't think it is reasonable to expect humans to never fail. BC fails and humans fail, but that is not a reason to deny women an opportunity to rectify a mistake.

My points on this matter are merely to debunk the myth that birth control fails and that's why so many women abort. If you look at the statistics it's mostly the humans who are failing rather the b.c. methods. That's an important point because if I believed b.c. failed to the extent that it sounds like it fails when people spin the argument I'd have been afraid to have sex when I was young and single. This myth of birth control that fails in large numbers is used as both a fear tactic from the pro lifers and a disingenuous attempt by prochoicers to lay blame elsewhere, outside the couple.

Are there couples who really put forth their best efforts? Sure. Are these couples representative of the vast amount of abortions? Absolutely not.

Keep on going for perfection, but don't expect it.

I don't aim for perfection. But I do try for honesty and the claim that birth control doesn't work pisses me off no matter which side plays the card.

 

[talloulou]

YOUR disbelief, when taken alone, is meaningless. Your disbelief, when added to the chorus of disbelief and misogynistic attitudes shown in this very thread, is significant.

Basically, I'm convinced lately that the whole argument is what it is because a bunch of patriarchal, woman hating gargoyles are all butt-hurt because some women found a measure of control over their lives that excluded men from participating.

Well you can think what you want about me. However I have a daughter. I'm all about empowering her and my son. I want her to know she doesn't have to be afraid of sex. I want her to know there are things available to her to keep her from getting pregnant and I want her to know if she uses these tools in certain ways then they will more than likely work. I want her to understand she has the power. That's it is on her and her partner to use these tools the way they were meant to be used. I don't want her being told these tools don't work because of statistics which show that apx half the women aborting used nothing and 76% of the remaining half used something inconsistently throughout the month. I don't want anyone pushing that erroneous message on my kids and topping it with an anecdotal story so they come away thinking birth control is pointless because it doesn't work and abortion is the best method of birth control.

So you can say I hate woman. I don't give a $hit cause I know you don't believe that anyway. I love both men and women. I want them to know they hold the power and far more often than not if used correctly their birth control is not going to fail them. Especially if they use a combo method.

As for my disbelief I don't care what you all think. Unless the condom broke and his girlfriend was taking the pills every other day the story is very hard to believe. Doesn't mean it isn't true. But it does fly in the face of what one would expect and if they were some rare exception where a consistent use of a combo method failed that doesn't change the fact that the majority of women choosing abortion are similar exceptions, not even close.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

According to your opinions it's all about women spreading their legs or being irresponsible and of course has nothing at all to do with the wee willie winkie that's laying in your pants.

It may still require a man's assistance to produce an unborn child-- at least until that bone-marrow technique hits market-- but it is the woman who most naturally bears all of the consequences of unwanted pregnancy. She has the most to lose during every aspect of the pregnancy and birth, and the law's attempts to hold the man responsible afterwards are unreliable at best.

Her responsibility is obviously far greater than the man's.

And you put situational blame on a woman for a miscarriage?

Going back to the original post-- the one you partially quoted-- his "situational blame" for miscarriages relates directly to reckless and often illegal conduct which has been scientifically proven to lead to miscarriage and birth defects.

Little as I agree with him on most aspects of this issue, Navy Pride is absolutely right on this one. Expectant mothers who abuse drugs or alcohol, leading to the miscarriage of their unborn child are at least morally equivalent to women who procure an abortion-- and because they are taking a very big risk of their children being born alive, but horribly deformed, I would argue that their conduct is far less morally tolerable.

 

[jallman]

So you can say I hate woman. I don't give a $hit cause I know you don't believe that anyway.

I didn't say you. But I believe, wholeheartedly, that the argument is both perpetuated and obfuscated by dishonest Spin doctors who really have it in for women who are strong and independent. They might not acknowledge it conciously but they sure as hell notice their impotence when a strong woman or the thought of a strong woman scares the hell out of them. Then the denigrations start (i.e. the slut should just keep her knees together) and the conversation goes downhill.

You and I can converse all day but throw a M.C.Spin.doctor into it and see what happens?

 

[talloulou]

OK...so I am lying, and the story is merely anecdotal?

Gee....Thanks for that....and pardon me if I regret sharing personal experience.

Your story doesn't change the fact that okgrannies claims are not supported by the facts.

Perhaps I should have kept my disbelief to myself. I apologize.

 

[OKgrannie]

Saying every woman is bound to have 3 unintended pregnancies despite best uses of the available birth control methods is just rot.

That's an average, some women will have no unplanned pregnancies, others with have more than three in spite of diligently using BC. And not everyone can use "proper" BC because of allergies or other medical reasons.

I agree. You're right. Everyone has heard about the vasectomy or tubal that failed overtime.

Thank you, I treasure those words: "You're right."

However, you still can't genuinely say that most couples are being as responsible as they can when the couples in question assert in an overwhelming massive majority that they either used nothing or used something inconsistently throughout the month.

That is not trying hard.

You're r.....you're ri....you're righ.....you're right....dadgum, that's hard to say.

Perhaps that info is great for trying to develop forms of b.c. that are more likely to be used consistently however the onus is on the user to actually use it consistently. You can't have couples claiming to use nothing or claiming to use something erratically during the course of the month and still claim they are doing their best and it's the birth control that is failing. Obviously if they used nothing, which sadly the numbers for that are great, it's their fault. If they used something inconsistently, (76% of the ones who claim to have used anything) then still the improvement of the situation must come from them and it's not the fault of ineffective birth control so much as it's human error. And they CAN do better. To claim they can't and conclude birth control is ineffective and every woman who enjoys an active sex life can expect 3 unwanted pregnancies in her lifetime does a disservice to women and men alike. That's a faulty conclusion.

A great many of the unwanted pregnancies due to human error could be prevented with comprehensive sex ed. The President's new budget has increased money for abstinence only sex ed in spite of proof that it is ineffective. It is also necessary for BC to be affordable to everyone.

My points on this matter are merely to debunk the myth that birth control fails and that's why so many women abort. If you look at the statistics it's mostly the humans who are failing rather the b.c. methods. That's an important point because if I believed b.c. failed to the extent that it sounds like it fails when people spin the argument I'd have been afraid to have sex when I was young and single. This myth of birth control that fails in large numbers is used as both a fear tactic from the pro lifers and a disingenuous attempt by prochoicers to lay blame elsewhere, outside the couple.

Are there couples who really put forth their best efforts? Sure. Are these couples representative of the vast amount of abortions? Absolutely not.

You should have been afraid if a pregnancy was going to be life devastating. You were LUCKY! Don't ever forget it.

I don't aim for perfection. But I do try for honesty and the claim that birth control doesn't work pisses me off no matter which side plays the card.

BC works, it just doesn't work that well.

 

[talloulou]

I didn't say you. But I believe, wholeheartedly, that the argument is both perpetuated and obfuscated by dishonest Spin doctors who really have it in for women who are strong and independent. They might not acknowledge it conciously but they sure as hell notice their impotence when a strong woman or the thought of a strong woman scares the hell out of them. Then the denigrations start (i.e. the slut should just keep her knees together) and the conversation goes downhill.

You and I can converse all day but throw a M.C.Spin.doctor into it and see what happens?

Well hopefully you can understand my frustrations with both types, the ones who claim birth control doesn't work because they need an excuse for the large numbers of abortion that lay blame elsewhere and the ones who claim birth control doesn't work because they don't want women enjoying sex.

Both groups represent beguiling agenda driven frothing perverts.

 

[missypea]

Going back to the original post-- the one you partially quoted-- his "situational blame" for miscarriages relates directly to reckless and often illegal conduct which has been scientifically proven to lead to miscarriage and birth defects.

Little as I agree with him on most aspects of this issue, Navy Pride is absolutely right on this one. Expectant mothers who abuse drugs or alcohol, leading to the miscarriage of their unborn child are at least morally equivalent to women who procure an abortion-- and because they are taking a very big risk of their children being born alive, but horribly deformed, I would argue that their conduct is far less morally tolerable.

I have to admit that I was seeing red when I first opened up this thread and started reading the garbage that was written about women. I don't know if I'll give him a complete pass on that statement though.

If a woman didn't even know she was pregnant and got rip roaring drunk I can't believe that he'd have one ounce of compassion for her or her loss.....not talking abuse here.

I'm speaking of his obvious hatred in general (posts on this thread and others) I just don't see person who makes such hateful posts, on a regular basis, truly having compassion.........for anyone.

 

[talloulou]

That's an average, some women will have no unplanned pregnancies, others with have more than three in spite of diligently using BC. And not everyone can use "proper" BC because of allergies or other medical reasons.

No statistic anywhere will show that most abortions represent couples who got pregnant despite diligent b.c. use.

Actual diligent use would go a long way in drastically reducing the numbers.

Thank you, I treasure those words: "You're right."

There are always exceptions. There are always gonna be some who really do diligently use b.c. only to have it fail. However they are the exception and not the rule.

You're r.....you're ri....you're righ.....you're right....dadgum, that's hard to say.

Meh, I end up having to say enough that it rolls off the tongue easily now.

A great many of the unwanted pregnancies due to human error could be prevented with comprehensive sex ed. The President's new budget has increased money for abstinence only sex ed in spite of proof that it is ineffective. It is also necessary for BC to be affordable to everyone.

Maybe. However I'm not sure in this day and age that sex ed at school is the problem. Teens today have access to the internet and tons of info is at their fingertips so it's not like they won't know about b.c. just because it was glossed over in school. Rather than waste more money in schools on info I'd rather see more money go into making both condoms and pills more easily accessible and cheaper. The kids know they're there. It's not lack of info that keeps them from using the stuff effectively. And most abortions are not kids or teens anyway so there's that to consider before you go blaming the schools.

You should have been afraid if a pregnancy was going to be life devastating. You were LUCKY! Don't ever forget it.

Wrong. I was diligent. If the numbers showed that most women who are aborting were women who were also diligent then you could say I was lucky. But the numbers show no such thing so it was my diligence that paid off. Had I been diligent and gotten pregnant anyway you might call me unlucky but to say I was diligent and lucky doesn't work. When the outcome was expected as in diligence in using b.c. consistently = no pregnancy then you can't call it luck.

BC works, it just doesn't work that well.

It works far better than many would you lead you to believe. :mrgreen:

 

[tecoyah]

Well hopefully you can understand my frustrations with both types, the ones who claim birth control doesn't work because they need an excuse for the large numbers of abortion that lay blame elsewhere and the ones who claim birth control doesn't work because they don't want women enjoying sex.

Both groups represent beguiling agenda driven frothing perverts.

Thus, I shared my story. Obviously we both believed in BC, or we would not have depended on its efficiency to prevent a pregnancy neither of us actively wanted. We both however, now understand the limitations of the methods we used due to the pregnancy we ended up with. There is no agenda here...just personal experience shared only to rebut the assertion it is a failsafe.
As a side note, we had about a two minute discussion about abortion when we found out, and neither of us seriously considered it....yet we are both Pro-Choice.

I have yet to meet ANYONE I would classify as Pro-Abortion.

 

[tecoyah]

No statistic anywhere will show that most abortions represent couples who got pregnant despite diligent b.c. use.

So...lets crunch some numbers here....mind you I'm making them up, but lowballing anyway.

lets say every adult in the US has sex once a month, using perfect contraception.

300,000,000 x 12 =3,600,000,000

lets say .01% of those sexual acts result in pregnancy.

3,600,000,000 /.01 = 36,000,000

Lets say only 10% of those using birth control actually didnt want kids.

36,000,000 / .1 = 3,600,000

and lets just say the guy has no say at all.

3,600,000/ .5 = 1,800,000

OK....now what are you gonna tell these million mothers?

 

[MC.no.spin]

Well hopefully you can understand my frustrations with both types, the ones who claim birth control doesn't work because they need an excuse for the large numbers of abortion that lay blame elsewhere and the ones who claim birth control doesn't work because they don't want women enjoying sex.

Both groups represent beguiling agenda driven frothing perverts.

I want women enjoying sex for the record :2wave:

 

[tecoyah]

I want women enjoying sex for the record :2wave:

Low Blow....my apology

 

[MC.no.spin]

Low blow..

Rebuttal removed.

:2wave:

 

[tecoyah]

You are the best reason why some abortions are justified.

Damn....and here I went and said I was sorry.....boo hoo

 

[MC.no.spin]

Damn....and here I went and said I was sorry.....boo hoo

I fixed it. I saw your post after the fact.

 

[talloulou]

So...lets crunch some numbers here....mind you I'm making them up, but lowballing anyway.

lets say every adult in the US has sex once a month, using perfect contraception.

300,000,000 x 12 =3,600,000,000

lets say .01% of those sexual acts result in pregnancy.

3,600,000,000 /.01 = 36,000,000

Lets say only 10% of those using birth control actually didnt want kids.

36,000,000 / .1 = 3,600,000

and lets just say the guy has no say at all.

3,600,000/ .5 = 1,800,000

OK....now what are you gonna tell these million mothers?

Your numbers are WAY WAY off. First off, half the people in the US are men who can't get pregnant. Second, of the women left you have to take away the number of women who are too old to get pregnant as well as the females who are too young. Then you have to take off the women who are currently pregnant or infertile due to whatever. Then take away the women who are sleeping with men who are fixed. Then take away at least some of the women who's men are using condoms as they have a fairly good effective rate also. So your starting number is WAY too freaking high. Then if you say b.c. is 97-99% effective you still have to factor in to the equation that many pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion before the woman ever knows she is pregnant. So the .01 or .03% of b.c. failure would still not result in all pregnancies going forth. Some of those failures are going to presumably be miscarriages before the women even knows she's pregnant. Also some of them are going to be miscarriages later. Hell and probably a small amount will be tubal pregnancies which can't go forth at all. So while you say you're low balling to get that "million mothers" I think you're high balling. Once you bring the numbers down and factor in all the things I discussed the actual number of women who get pregnant despite diligent b.c. use is gonna be fairly low. If abortion numbers matched this relatively low number you probably wouldn't hear much about it.

 

[OKgrannie]

No statistic anywhere will show that most abortions represent couples who got pregnant despite diligent b.c. use.

Actual diligent use would go a long way in drastically reducing the numbers.

I never said it was most couples. I stand by my claim that it is many.

Maybe. However I'm not sure in this day and age that sex ed at school is the problem. Teens today have access to the internet and tons of info is at their fingertips so it's not like they won't know about b.c. just because it was glossed over in school. Rather than waste more money in schools on info I'd rather see more money go into making both condoms and pills more easily accessible and cheaper. The kids know they're there. It's not lack of info that keeps them from using the stuff effectively. And most abortions are not kids or teens anyway so there's that to consider before you go blaming the schools

.

I'm not blaming the schools, I'm blaming the government that has decreed that abstinence only sex ed is the ONLY sex ed available. It wouldn't cost ANY more money to include information about contraception in the classes that are already being taught. I think teens rely more on info from their peers than researching more accurate stuff. It is not only teens who are misinformed, the information learned in school classes should be applicable throughout a woman's life.

Wrong. I was diligent. If the numbers showed that most women who are aborting were women who were also diligent then you could say I was lucky. But the numbers show no such thing so it was my diligence that paid off. Had I been diligent and gotten pregnant anyway you might call me unlucky but to say I was diligent and lucky doesn't work. When the outcome was expected as in diligence in using b.c. consistently = no pregnancy then you can't call it luck.

It works far better than many would you lead you to believe. :mrgreen:

I applaud your diligence, but you were still lucky. Just as those who relied on sterilization that subsequently failed were UNlucky. It would be more attractive if you were grateful for that luck instead of patting yourself on the back for being so clever. BTW, how many years of fertility do you have ahead of you?

 

[tecoyah]

Your numbers are WAY WAY off. First off, half the people in the US are men who can't get pregnant. Second, of the women left you have to take away the number of women who are too old to get pregnant as well as the females who are too young. Then you have to take off the women who are currently pregnant or infertile due to whatever. Then take away the women who are sleeping with men who are fixed. Then take away at least some of the women who's men are using condoms as they have a fairly good effective rate also. So your starting number is WAY too freaking high. Then if you say b.c. is 97-99% effective you still have to factor in to the equation that many pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion before the woman ever knows she is pregnant. So the .01 or .03% of b.c. failure would still not result in all pregnancies going forth. Some of those failures are going to presumably be miscarriages before the women even knows she's pregnant. Also some of them are going to be miscarriages later. Hell and probably a small amount will be tubal pregnancies which can't go forth at all. So while you say you're low balling to get that "million mothers" I think you're high balling. Once you bring the numbers down and factor in all the things I discussed the actual number of women who get pregnant despite diligent b.c. use is gonna be fairly low. If abortion numbers matched this relatively low number you probably wouldn't hear much about it.

OK....what are you gonna tell those thousand mothers then?

 

[talloulou]

I never said it was most couples. I stand by my claim that it is many.

Well if apx. half of couples scheduling an abortion claim to have used nothing and 76% of the other half claim to have used something inconsistently at some point during the month they got pregnant then you are left with a fairly small amount over all who assert diligence. That's not many in my mind but I guess many is relative. Have we had many school shootings? Depends, many compared to what? Number of schools? See where I'm going?

I'm not blaming the schools, I'm blaming the government that has decreed that abstinence only sex ed is the ONLY sex ed available. It wouldn't cost ANY more money to include information about contraception in the classes that are already being taught. I think teens rely more on info from their peers than researching more accurate stuff. It is not only teens who are misinformed, the information learned in school classes should be applicable throughout a woman's life.

Good Lord if a woman learns all she's gonna learn in school then we've got problems. At any rate this isn't a fight I want to pick. I don't much care what the schools do either way. I think it's fairly irrelevant as most women having abortions are not school age and most have already had a kid and most have access to an internet. It seems a stretch to claim that the schools can fix whatever the problem is. The young people are actually doing a fairly good job at not getting pregnant. I think it's cause they're mostly young and scared which increases the likelihood of both parties being diligent.

I applaud your diligence, but you were still lucky. Just as those who relied on sterilization that subsequently failed were UNlucky. It would be more attractive if you were grateful for that luck instead of patting yourself on the back for being so clever. BTW, how many years of fertility do you have ahead of you?

I was not LUCKY. Maybe others were unlucky if they are rare exceptions to the rule that birth control works, but I was not lucky. When things happen as expected that is not luck. Luck is when things go your way despite expectations running against you.

When something has a 96+% efficacy rate and it works the way it should you're not lucky. You're unlucky if it doesn't work for you.

Let's say a very small percent of people are born missing a limb. The expectation is that most will be born with their limbs. The baby born missing a limb is unlucky. To say to a woman who just gave birth to a baby with all limbs intact, "Hey you're lucky the kid has all it's limbs" is absurd. You'd only say that if there was a reason to suspect that there was a high chance the kid would be born missing a limb. Maybe we view "luck" differently. In any case I'm not "patting myself on the back."

I just refuse to allow people to put forth the notion that birth control fails in large numbers, that it fails most of the time, much of the time, or that this failure happens to many diligent users. That's just patently false.

 

[tecoyah]

Ok...let me try a different approach in hopes of getting the answer.

What would you tell your sister, if she was one of the unlucky few, diligent, pregnant women?

 

[talloulou]

OK....what are you gonna tell those thousand mothers then?

If there were 1000 or even 10000 abortions a year in the US I'd probably shut the hell up.

 

[talloulou]

Ok...let me try a different approach in hopes of getting the answer.

What would you tell your sister, if she was one of the unlucky few, diligent, pregnant women?

I'd tell her I could help her, I'd tell her I'd raise the baby if she'd like, and I'd tell her I'd love her and still would regardless of what she decided to do.

Really what I'd tell her would be the same whether she was diligent or not. However if she claimed to have been diligent and described diligence as occasionally taking her pill every other day or so and sometimes using a condom I'd laugh at her and tell her Geez do better than that so you don't have to go through this again.

 

[jallman]

Well if apx. half of couples scheduling an abortion claim to have used nothing and 76% of the other half claim to have used something inconsistently at some point during the month they got pregnant then you are left with a fairly small amount over all who assert diligence. That's not many in my mind but I guess many is relative. Have we had many school shootings? Depends, many compared to what? Number of schools? See where I'm going?



Good Lord if a woman learns all she's gonna learn in school then we've got problems. At any rate this isn't a fight I want to pick. I don't much care what the schools do either way. I think it's fairly irrelevant as most women having abortions are not school age and most have already had a kid and most have access to an internet. It seems a stretch to claim that the schools can fix whatever the problem is. The young people are actually doing a fairly good job at not getting pregnant. I think it's cause they're mostly young and scared which increases the likelihood of both parties being diligent.



I was not LUCKY. Maybe others were unlucky if they are rare exceptions to the rule that birth control works, but I was not lucky. When things happen as expected that is not luck. Luck is when things go your way despite expectations running against you.

When something has a 96+% efficacy rate and it works the way it should you're not lucky. You're unlucky if it doesn't work for you.

Let's say a very small percent of people are born missing a limb. The expectation is that most will be born with their limbs. The baby born missing a limb is unlucky. To say to a woman who just gave birth to a baby with all limbs intact, "Hey you're lucky the kid has all it's limbs" is absurd. You'd only say that if there was a reason to suspect that there was a high chance the kid would be born missing a limb. Maybe we view "luck" differently. In any case I'm not "patting myself on the back."

I just refuse to allow people to put forth the notion that birth control fails in large numbers, that it fails most of the time, much of the time, or that this failure happens to many diligent users. That's just patently false.

But its not as fail safe as you are convinved it is. With a 96% percent success rate, that still means 4 out of a hundred experience failure. Now multiply that by the hundreds of thousands using birth control....it adds up.