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My solution for eliminating our oil dependency.

Trajan Octavian Titus said:
No read my first post the whole point is to reduce the cost of hydrogen PRODUCTION, through the use of uranium fission, umm I can't really explain it any better, it's actually quite simple.

This is worse. Do you know how hydrogen is produced right now? I already posted it, but it's called electrolysis. Very basically, a current is run through water, which seperated the atoms, and produces hydrogen and oxygen gas. The problem though, regardless of where the electricity to make this current comes from, is that it takes just as much energy to seperate the water molecule as you get from the released hydrogen atom. So no energy is being added. It takes the same amount to make it as we get from it.
 
how do you explain the fact that they already have operational fuel cell powered automobiles, it's the lack of an infastructure and the high costs of creating hydrogen that are the problem. They were obviously able to overcome the temperature problem and as for the danger factor they can design it to make it safer, if they strategically placed the fuel cell in a location that would be safe in the event of an accident it would help, it would be like the pinto in reverse.
 
Aside from hydrogen being a joke what WILL have to change is how we live as Americans. Watch "The End of Suburbia". As you can guess from the title, we're going to have to put an end to suburban life. Driving 30 miles up and back to work every day, for errands, eating out, shopping, etc isn't practical or sustainable. Living in Europe was an eye-opener. I would have used as much gas in a month there as I use in three days here. The only times to use a car would have been to travel outside the city for a trip. Everything else is within walking distance or reachable by the reliable bus service. We have forgotten what makes a city and that includes what makes a city great, for the most part.
 
Columbusite said:
Aside from hydrogen being a joke what WILL have to change is how we live as Americans. Watch "The End of Suburbia". As you can guess from the title, we're going to have to put an end to suburban life. Driving 30 miles up and back to work every day, for errands, eating out, shopping, etc isn't practical or sustainable. Living in Europe was an eye-opener. I would have used as much gas in a month there as I use in three days here. The only times to use a car would have been to travel outside the city for a trip. Everything else is within walking distance or reachable by the reliable bus service. We have forgotten what makes a city and that includes what makes a city great, for the most part.

You know, generally I like what The Nation has to say (I know, I know it's biased people), but the most recent issue had one of the dumbest articles I've ever seen in it. It was crying about the fact that poor people who lived in small towns 50 miles from their job could no longer afford gas. And it suggested, get this, a government aid program for people that couldn't afford gas. Unreal. Actually supporting people's decision to live 50 miles from their job. IT'S NOT GOING TO WORK. Time to think of option B, instead of continuing to pay for it.
 
Kelzie said:
You know, generally I like what The Nation has to say (I know, I know it's biased people), but the most recent issue had one of the dumbest articles I've ever seen in it. It was crying about the fact that poor people who lived in small towns 50 miles from their job could no longer afford gas. And it suggested, get this, a government aid program for people that couldn't afford gas. Unreal. Actually supporting people's decision to live 50 miles from their job. IT'S NOT GOING TO WORK. Time to think of option B, instead of continuing to pay for it.


I'm hearing good things about ethonol these days in a south American country I believe I heard that ethonol has replaced seventy percent of oil consumption. Oh and I agree urban sprawl is a definate problem.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
I'm hearing good things about ethonol these days in a south American country I believe I heard that ethonol has replaced seventy percent of oil consumption. Oh and I agree urban sprawl is a definate problem.

That may help SLOW our need to switch to a viable alternative to cheap oil for now (of which there is none at the moment), but it won't help in the future. I think urban sprawl is going to have to be stopped by law. People think owning a gas guzzling SUV, a yard, and living out in the burbs is an American's right. Well, no, it's not. I personally believe SUVs should be outlawed. You don't have the right to waste all the gas you want. What if I built a car that uses 100 times more gas than SUVs? Do I have the right to use such a thing? I couldn't see how that would be OK. I think, no, I KNOW, that the most effective thing we can do to curb our dependency on gas is to move back into the city
 
Columbusite said:
That may help SLOW our need to switch to a viable alternative to cheap oil for now (of which there is none at the moment), but it won't help in the future. I think urban sprawl is going to have to be stopped by law. People think owning a gas guzzling SUV, a yard, and living out in the burbs is an American's right. Well, no, it's not. I personally believe SUVs should be outlawed. You don't have the right to waste all the gas you want. What if I built a car that uses 100 times more gas than SUVs? Do I have the right to use such a thing? I couldn't see how that would be OK. I think, no, I KNOW, that the most effective thing we can do to curb our dependency on gas is to move back into the city

Shoot ya I don't know how people can even afford to drive SUV'S as for me I drive a motorcycle and mainly take public transportation as I do live in a city.
 
Kelzie said:
You know, generally I like what The Nation has to say (I know, I know it's biased people), but the most recent issue had one of the dumbest articles I've ever seen in it. It was crying about the fact that poor people who lived in small towns 50 miles from their job could no longer afford gas. And it suggested, get this, a government aid program for people that couldn't afford gas. Unreal. Actually supporting people's decision to live 50 miles from their job. IT'S NOT GOING TO WORK. Time to think of option B, instead of continuing to pay for it.

Yeah, that's just ridiculous. How does it not occur to them to move CLOSER to their jobs? I know one reason why some people commute from Lancaster (around a 40-45 min drive) to Columbus is because they don't want to live near black people. I know that due to a friend of my mom's who lives there and learned about that fact. If those small towns simply don't have jobs they're just going to have to be left behind. People can go to the ones that do.
 
Former Navy Nuke here, so I know a bit about energy production, and chemistry, and physics.
Hydrogen is NOT an answer. Yes, it does not pollute during combustion, but most of the energy supplies used in the processes that are used to make it do pollute, and there is a net energy LOSS during the processes. Yes, "they" have fuel cell cars, but "we" don't. We can build a lunar rover, but that does not mean that everyone will have one.
If we should suddenly discover H2 underground in wells, like natural gas, then we have it made, right? No, just like was already said, repeatedly, by Kelzie, there are additional problems to consider that are possible to overcome, but not economically feasible. H2 will not happen in my grandchildren's lifetime.
The best use of nuclear power is making electricity, and as a propulsion plant for our submarines. The best use of oil and gasoline and natural gas is pretty much what we are already doing with it.
The best use of H2 is rocket fuel, fuel cells, etc.
AND, the best way for us to minimize our energy dependency is to use less of it, stop wasting it, re-refine waste oil, insulate our homes better, turn off the lights, fans, TVs, etc. when not needed, drive less, plan our trips better, etc. etc. etc.
Easy answers exist mostly in fantasy land, and occasionally in the minds of those who know next to nothing about the physics and chemistry involved.
 
NO NEED TO STOP USING OIL

there is a glut

Venizuala HAS more then middle east EST
BUt you have to pay and if they should change to selling it in EUros
were Toast
$ is underwritten by the fact that it is used around the world to buy oil

SUADI has most oil
IRAQ second

thats proven oil reserves
Venizuala's estimated to be more the iraq and Saudi Arabia
The net effect of the exclusive emphasis on proven reserves is to make people believe that the worlds oil future is -- and must always be -- centered in the Middle East.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

very intriguing look at all oil reserves in the world and why Venizuala is getting news these days
http://www.radford.edu/~wkovarik/oil/index.html
Petro~EURO
 
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It has been pointed out that alternative energy sources result in a net energy loss. While this is true, it is not exclusively true of alternative energy.

By comparison, the energy used in gasoline production-which includes exploration, production, transportation, and refining-is only about 12 to 15 percent of the energy yield. National Center for Policy Analysis

The comparative energy loss is what is important, really. This along with the relative cost of the energy inputs. The article cited is comparing ethanol and gasoline, where gasoline comes out ahead by too much; making ethanol undesirable from a purely economic standpoint.

This thread has postulated the viability of the hydrogen storage of nuclear energy for use later as a transportable energy source. It is not enough to say that there is a net loss of energy with regard to hydrogen. Very simply, the sceptic must show that hydrogen is a more expensive energy store than gasoline.

This would address the value to our economy of the cheapest possible energy source. It ignores the value to our country (and indirectly, our economy), of energy independence. The value of energy independence is not easily factored into the economy.

Does anyone really think we'd be in Iraq at all if oil wasn't a consideration? Yes, yes, I realize that Bush is supposedly attempting to spread freedom and democracy. Nevertheless, would he have any support at all for supposedly doing so in Iraq if oil wasn't right there? Do we really think he'd be interested in doing so if it weren't for oil? Ok, lets take a flying leap of faith (ignoring all evidence to the contrary) and assume its about making the world safe from terrorism :roll: Would our policies even interest potential terrorists if our policies weren't ones that tried to preserve stable American friendly regimes in the Middle East? No matter how you slice it, these costs are part of the cost of preserving 'cheap' oil based energy. Stable access to oil has been a cost, not just to economies, but in human lives, for the past century. I would love to cut these countries loose from American policy considerations, and let them figure out for themselves how best to be governed.

Even with all of this, I don't think we would necessarily end up with cheaper energy if we switched to hydrogen. I simply don't know, and don't have the time just now to do the research to decide, and thus compare these costs to what it costs us in non-economic terms. However, I hope I've contributed by pointing out that the answer the question the thread asks is of greater complexity than the narrow considerations that have been put forward allow.

My own qualified answer is that, even though I'm very friendly to the environment and a raving liberal, I would be quite favorable to the exploration of nuclear power solutions to cheap energy supply. Regardless of whether transportable energy will be hydrogen or not, we need to seriously begin to prepare for an alternative to gasoline and other oil derivatives. No matter what adequate energy source is developed, it seems inevitable that it will involve the management of pollution as a factor. Nuclear seems to be the most likely candidate for the amount of energy we will need, and development of it should not wait for a crisis.
 
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New nukes are being considered, but with a history of issues from past nuclear power plants, most utilities are reluctant to be the first to place an order. Their concerns are valid. Why spend a ton of money and then have the local politicians kill the project just to curry votes from uninformed citizenry?

The latest designs can be pre-licensed but the site selection would still be an issue. The NIMBY's have to decide what is more important to them.

Californians are suffering power shortages at this very monent due to a shutdown of a triple plant nuclear station in Arizona. There is a large coal fired plant in Delta, Utah that sends all of its energy output to California, but all its pollution goes straight to the Salt Lake City area. Why is this? Californians don't want power plants in their back yard!

During the last power shortages, California got ripped off big time from Enron and others sending power in their direction. It is their own fault for not having local generation capacity suitable to their basic needs.

I am a former Navy Nuke, and have worked in Idaho and Aizona at nuclear facilities. The plants are safe in design and construction. The weak link is the human operators. 3 Mile Island would have shut itself down properly if the operators had believed their instruments and just stood back and done nothing. Instead, they shut off the backup safety systems.

I hope that when we build the next generation of nuke plants, the builders and owners refrain from hiring their incompetent friends and relatives.
I have seen it first hand, and it is scary.:(
 
UtahBill said:
The latest designs can be pre-licensed but the site selection would still be an issue. The NIMBY's have to decide what is more important to them.
I utterly agree. But, lets take a closer look at this.

They successfully fought to keep power generation out of their own back yard, opting instead to export the downsides of IMBY (as opposed to NIMBY), to other communities. If the problems can be exported, do you really blame politicians for allowing them to be?

In America, these other communities are to blame, really, if they don't take one of their many options to prevent the imported problems.

The closest thing to a free-market based option would be to regulate. Your clean air is worth something, and companies should not be allowed to dirty it up, at least not for free.

Consider clean air to be a publicly owned asset, and either require them to filter all pollution out by law, charge them for privilege to dirty up your air ("buy" your clean air), or attempt some pollution credits based scheme. Don't depend on the federal government to regulate this, they are loosening clean air requirements, not tightening them. This will have the added benefit of making nuclear power slightly more attractive. I personally wouldn't allow them to buy the clean air for any less than it costs for the public to keep the air clean (again) from their pollutants. This will effectively force them to make other choices, such as filtering it themselves, but leaves intact the 'cost' of maintaining clean air. It wouldn't be a bad idea to assess all pollution generators fees on this or a similar basis, including motorists.

Your state has allowed power plants to be built without these regulatory constraints, and that is a choice your community has to make. California has chosen not to, and power plants have made logical choices to locate elsewhere which happens to be in your back yard. Blaming California, rather than your own state laws will (obviously) get you nowhere. Be mad at yourself and/or your neighbors. Collectively, they're the ones who have allowed this.

You can have clean air, you just have to value it.
 
What oil dependency? Show of hands, please. How many are aware that there's 2.6 trillion barrels of oil in shale in Utah and Colorado?

How many are aware that there's a process that will extract useable oil from that shale at a cost of about $12 to $28 per barrel?

Yep. <a href=http://www.oiltechinc.com/profile.html>Oiltechinc.com</a>

There's no need to panic. All that's necessary is that any polician seeking to place all of the nation's oil shale in a national park in exchange for campaign contributions from the Saudis should be shot. So, assuming the politicians don't do what they do best, and muck things up, we've got more than enough oil for ...um... forever.

Kelzie listed some practical problems of hydrogen-as-motor-fuel. Outside of those, I don't see the capital showing up to rebuild the entire liquid-fuel infrastructure that we've spent a century building. That cost has to be added to the cost of hydrogen-as-motor-fuel.

Hydrogen could replace natural gas as a home heating and cooking fuel, and as an electric generator fuel. Why anyone would want to is a mystery, because of losses and inefficiencies in making the H2 gas in the first place would probably cost more per kilowatt-hour or Btu.

Nulcear power has it's place. Because of Traitor Jane, however, the general public of the United States is convinced that anything "nukular" is deadly dangerous. The American public has always been more hormonal than cerebral. They're "stuck on stupid", as the popular saying goes. Even many engineers I know have these same culturally instilled baseless fears.

Needless to say, TMI was based on the old Naval Reactors design philosophy of high power density and a light water moderator. Modern designs address many of the concerns that 1970's technology did not. Personally I'd much rather have a modern nuclear plant in my neighborhood than any plant relying on fossil fuel combustion. Its far cleaner and far safer.

Nuclear plants are quieter and kill fewer birds than wind-mills. Which isn't to say that current cuisinart designs can't be modified to be spotted-owl-safe. Is it worth the expense?

Fusion technology is yet to be proven. No point in basing plans on that until it's ready.

It's all fine and good to talk about conservation as a means of reducing oil dependency. The problem is that there are physical limits to efficiency dictated by the laws of thermodynamics. So even if the per capita demand for energy declines, the population of the nation is growing. And that means the net energy demand will continue to climb. The energy needs of the US will show a 50% increase by 2030. And the energy demands of China, India, and elsewhere are growing even faster as they finally start to industrialize and move away from their primitive roots.

If we continue to rely on fossil fuels, we will continue to emit CO2 as the inevitable by product. Replacing natural gas with hydrogen ends the problem of CO2 emission...if the H2 is produced by solar or nuclear or some other non-combustive method. However...H20 is also a green-house gas. Again, gotta balance costs over benefits.

And thus all persons concerned about "global warming" and rising CO2 levels should be ardent supporters of nuclear technology as a safe and clean alternative to fossil fuels.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
It's all fine and good to talk about conservation as a means of reducing oil dependency. The problem is that there are physical limits to efficiency dictated by the laws of thermodynamics. So even if the per capita demand for energy declines, the population of the nation is growing. And that means the net energy demand will continue to climb. The energy needs of the US will show a 50% increase by 2030. And the energy demands of China, India, and elsewhere are growing even faster as they finally start to industrialize and move away from their primitive roots.

Conserving energy is still the way to go. Current technology can be used to reduce the wasted energy for lighting, heating, and cooling of our homes and buildings. Think LED lighting, higher standards for insulation, minimizing air leaks, heat recovery devices in commercial buildings for extracting waste heat from those processes that consume a lot of energy, etc.
If we have 300 million people using 300 million units of energy, or 1 unit of energy per person, and we achieve a 33% reduction in energy use, that is 300 divided by 200, or 1.5 units per person. That allows for a 50% increase in population.
We should have started doing this 30 years ago.:(
 
The cost of conservation must be balanced against the cost of "new" energy.
When energy prices rise, the incentive to conserve is increased.

The benefit of any conservation effort is that the savings will continue indefinitely and act to depress the price of energy. The boneheaded energy policies of Nixon, Ford, and Carter forced conservation efforts that pulled the price of oil down, and Reagan's de-regulation of the oil business pulled the price of energy almost to the basement.

This, BTW, is one of the reasons American dependence on foreign oil increased. It became uneconomical to pull oil out of American wells.

I never said don't conserve. I'm just pointing out that conservation can only go so far. I mean, all my lights are now those curly-cue compact fluorescents. It makes a noticeable dip in the electric bill. Figuring out a way to get the wife and kids to turn off lights would help.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
The cost of conservation must be balanced against the cost of "new" energy.
When energy prices rise, the incentive to conserve is increased.

The benefit of any conservation effort is that the savings will continue indefinitely and act to depress the price of energy. The boneheaded energy policies of Nixon, Ford, and Carter forced conservation efforts that pulled the price of oil down, and Reagan's de-regulation of the oil business pulled the price of energy almost to the basement.

This, BTW, is one of the reasons American dependence on foreign oil increased. It became uneconomical to pull oil out of American wells.

I never said don't conserve. I'm just pointing out that conservation can only go so far. I mean, all my lights are now those curly-cue compact fluorescents. It makes a noticeable dip in the electric bill. Figuring out a way to get the wife and kids to turn off lights would help.

I don't think that using less energy will have the effect of lowering its cost to the consumer. The only thing I am considering is less wasting of limited resources. It is very likely that we as a nation have seen the last of cheap energy from fossil fuels.
And speaking of lights, we have a routine in my family. It is just me and the wife, and she knows how to turn lights on when she enters a room, but she hasn't mastered the skill of turning them off. That is her routine. Mine is waiting a few minutes to make sure she isn't going right back to that room and then I go turn the lights off.
The worst, for her, is the master bath. It has 8 of those fat incandescent bulbs above the mirror. There are so many that they put off a lot of heat.
Our kitchen used to have 8 each 75 watt floods, but I have replaced them with the small flourescents. Standing under those flood lights was like being under those infrared lamps used to keep food warm.
All that heat was being added to the house at the same time the air conditioning was running. You do what you can....:mrgreen:
 
UtahBill said:
I don't think that using less energy will have the effect of lowering its cost to the consumer. The only thing I am considering is less wasting of limited resources. It is very likely that we as a nation have seen the last of cheap energy from fossil fuels.

No, read my link, http://www.oiltechinc.com/profile.html

Oiltech has a process that can extract oil from shale at $12 - $28 a barrel. The US should be doing everything it can to promote this technology. There's almost 3 trillion barrels of extractable oil in Utah.

I don't believe that 3 trillion figure includes the tar sands up in Alberta, which I've heard is good for another trillion.

Then there's the trillions of cubic feet of methane in submerged methane ice in the oceans. The myth of the energy crunch kept the lefties happy in the seventies, but like all things the lefties believe in, it isn't so.
 
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Scarecrow Akhbar said:
No, read my link, http://www.oiltechinc.com/profile.html

Oiltech has a process that can extract oil from shale at $12 - $28 a barrel. The US should be doing everything it can to promote this technology. There's almost 3 trillion barrels of extractable oil in Utah.

I don't believe that 3 trillion figure includes the tar sands up in Alberta, which I've heard is good for another trillion.

Then there's the trillions of cubic feet of methane in submerged methane ice in the oceans. The myth of the energy crunch kept the lefties happy in the seventies, but like all things the lefties believe in, it isn't so.


That's true and apparently there is more oil in the sands of Canada than in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait combined, only thing missing is the tech to extract it.
 
UtahBill said:
Conserving energy is still the way to go. Current technology can be used to reduce the wasted energy for lighting, heating, and cooling of our homes and buildings. Think LED lighting, higher standards for insulation, minimizing air leaks, heat recovery devices in commercial buildings for extracting waste heat from those processes that consume a lot of energy, etc.
If we have 300 million people using 300 million units of energy, or 1 unit of energy per person, and we achieve a 33% reduction in energy use, that is 300 divided by 200, or 1.5 units per person. That allows for a 50% increase in population.
We should have started doing this 30 years ago.:(

YEs more conserving of energy is long over do
better designs and better approaches to this will save much money and pollution

an example
the automobile engine
there is now an engine builder in the process of developing a 3.5 liter
variable compression engine it is said to produce in excess of 475 HP
from only a naturally aspirated v6
and is also working on a 1.5 liter and 2.5 liter 4 cyl versions
that is one way of saving
apply such efforts across the broad spectrum of uses and it can make a big difference
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
That's true and apparently there is more oil in the sands of Canada than in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait combined, only thing missing is the tech to extract it.

Venezeula IS estimated to hold more oil then saudi arabia and IRAQ combined

and its the cheap easy to get at kind

recently out of the blue bush lashed out at Venezeula because it is pushing for a central SA benk and to peg on the euro and not the us $

Just as with the shortage of refinery capacity to drive oil prices high

we are being manipulated into no action,in finding better ways

the world has too much oil there is a glut but the oil prices are managed it isnt a free market
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
No, read my link, http://www.oiltechinc.com/profile.html

Oiltech has a process that can extract oil from shale at $12 - $28 a barrel. The US should be doing everything it can to promote this technology. There's almost 3 trillion barrels of extractable oil in Utah.

I don't believe that 3 trillion figure includes the tar sands up in Alberta, which I've heard is good for another trillion.

Then there's the trillions of cubic feet of methane in submerged methane ice in the oceans. The myth of the energy crunch kept the lefties happy in the seventies, but like all things the lefties believe in, it isn't so.


I agree with everything you said except the last sentense. A year back a conservative oil expert said that underground oil is going to hit a peak within a year at the soonest. The media is the one that paniced.

tar sands and the ability to develope them cheaply is a recent developement. It will take some time to turn this around. From what I hear, canada is pushing hard to enter this market. But it will take a fair bit of time for this or the other you mentioned to effect the prices in market. We are going to see high prices for a while yet.
 
kcasper said:
I agree with everything you said except the last sentense. A year back a conservative oil expert said that underground oil is going to hit a peak within a year at the soonest. The media is the one that paniced.

tar sands and the ability to develope them cheaply is a recent developement. It will take some time to turn this around. From what I hear, canada is pushing hard to enter this market. But it will take a fair bit of time for this or the other you mentioned to effect the prices in market. We are going to see high prices for a while yet.

Tar sands are no good. You get a good deal less energy than what you put in from what I understand.
 
I've heard of another way in which we could drammatically reduce foriegn oil dependency, ok, Farmers refuse to grow crops specifically for ethanol production because it is less profitable for them but what if the government was to threaten to take away their subsidies unless they grew these ethanol specific crops? Since we're not going to be able to get rid of the subsidies we might as well put them to some good as leverage instead of having them just being road blocks to the FTAA (foriegn trade of the Americas agreement) with Latin America.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
I've heard of another way in which we could drammatically reduce foriegn oil dependency, ok, Farmers refuse to grow crops specifically for ethanol production because it is less profitable for them but what if the government was to threaten to take away their subsidies unless they grew these ethanol specific crops? Since we're not going to be able to get rid of the subsidies we might as well put them to some good as leverage instead of having them just being road blocks to the FTAA (foriegn trade of the Americas agreement) with Latin America.

From what I've heard it would take A LOT of crops to do this. We're talking much more than they make now. Now how are you going to convert that corn into ethanol? Oil.
 
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