My incredibly unpopular view on trans people

[Lisa]

Children and teenagers are bullied for being different in any way. That's because children and teenagers are extremely conformist, they are learning to fit into the society. There is very little tolerance. So of course gays and transgenders have a harder time in school. But this is true of anyone who is different.

As people grow up and find a social environment they fit into, there is less bullying. Trying to transform yourself into the opposite sex because of childhood bullying doesn't actually make sense.

Nobody said that they are trying to change gender because of bullying. That is your ignorant idea. The transgender children and teens are bullied because they are trying to change gender annd because they are different from the norn. The feelings of being transgender came long before the bullying.

 

[Lisa]

Solution: Don't undergo years of treatment, only wind up "halfway comfortable." Be yourself, ignore outdated cultural norms. Now days non-conformists are generally accepted, especially in the more intellectually sophisticated, or artistic, areas.

Transgdered people don't want to be non-conformists. They want to fit in and surprisingly most transgender people often desire to fit into very stereotypical gender roles, even if they have careers that are not always stereotypical. They want a body that aligns with their psychological gender identity so they can be comfortable in their skin their appearance and in a sexual role.

How would you feel if you had a male body when you look in the mirror, a deep male voice and everyone thought that you were male and yet you know that you were female with very feminine drives and desires? That is where transgender people find themselves. How is this so difficult for your to understand unless you can't accept that is actually happens because you dont think that it can?

Transgdered people feel alien in their own body so they desperately need that treatment to feel somewhat whole and complete in their own body, even though that treatment leaves much to be desired.

 

[Lisa]

Sexual attraction is an instinctive singular drive. Gender identification is not.

Once again you are very misinformed or very ignorant. The concept of our gender identity develops before we are 4 years old. The concept of our sexual orientation doesn't develop for another 5-10 years when we are teens. Did you not know whether you were a girl or a boy when you started kindergarten? Transgendered children know their body is one gender but they also know that they feel different. They aren't aware of the term transgender or what it means but they do know what their psychological gender identity is and they want clothes and toys that express it.

 

[VanceMack]

Transgdered people don't want to be non-conformists. They want to fit in and surprisingly most transgender people often desire to fit into very stereotypical gender roles, even if they have careers that are not always stereotypical. They want a body that aligns with their psychological gender identity so they can be comfortable in their skin their appearance and in a sexual role.

How would you feel if you had a male body when you look in the mirror, a deep male voice and everyone thought that you were male and yet you know that you were female with very feminine drives and desires? That is where transgender people find themselves. How is this so difficult for your to understand unless you can't accept that is actually happens because you dont think that it can?

Transgdered people feel alien in their own body so they desperately need that treatment to feel somewhat whole and complete in their own body, even though that treatment leaves much to be desired.

Its not just feeling confused or alien in their own bodies...the condition is really being manifest across society at large. The incidents and averages in differing parts of the country are observed to be doubling...tripling...and in some places even quadrupling new national averages and there are studies that suggest that they are being fed by many different sources.

'Gender' as seen today...whether people agree with it or not, has become a fluid social construct. Its not limited to people that 'always felt like they should have been a girl/boy'. Studies are showing that there are numerous social factors contributing to identity questions.
Why Is Transgender Identity on the Rise Among Teens? | Psychology Today
More people are identifying as trans and gender nonconforming. Why? - HoustonChronicle.com

All of this just suggests its very complex, and the best predictor of successful relationship and healthy development of the individual, regardless of the path they choose, is t promote unconditional love, open communication, and self esteem.

 

[Lursa]

There is pressure on the medical profession to be gender affirming and politically correct. To believe a child who claims to be the wrong sex. Instead of being skeptical, and acknowledging that children are not always in touch with reality.

Where is there proof of this? Can you provide links showing such pressure OR other peer-reviewed research that shows otherwise? I dont mean conjecture or edge cases, I mean sources accepted by the medical profession and conclusions.

 

[Lursa]

Its not just feeling confused or alien in their own bodies...the condition is really being manifest across society at large. The incidents and averages in differing parts of the country are observed to be doubling...tripling...and in some places even quadrupling new national averages and there are studies that suggest that they are being fed by many different sources.

Just the increase in numbers doesnt invalidate their conditions or how it is presented (socially or otherwise). We experienced the same thing with domestic abuse...hidden for years and people still reminisce over how 'wonderful' those post-WW2 years were. That's BS. Domestic abuse, child abuse and molestation, being gay…all were just hidden, not less prevalent.

And more recently we are seeing sexual harassment incidences steeply rising. Is that because they werent happening before? Absolutely not. Many of us remember such incidents in the workplace, or were personally harassed or abused…and know it wasn’t reported.

This is just a statement that isnt necessarily in disagreement with yours, as I'm not clear on what conclusion you've drawn.

 

[Lisa]

Its not just feeling confused or alien in their own bodies...the condition is really being manifest across society at large. The incidents and averages in differing parts of the country are observed to be doubling...tripling...and in some places even quadrupling new national averages and there are studies that suggest that they are being fed by many different sources.

'Gender' as seen today...whether people agree with it or not, has become a fluid social construct. Its not limited to people that 'always felt like they should have been a girl/boy'. Studies are showing that there are numerous social factors contributing to identity questions.
Why Is Transgender Identity on the Rise Among Teens? | Psychology Today
More people are identifying as trans and gender nonconforming. Why? - HoustonChronicle.com

All of this just suggests its very complex, and the best predictor of successful relationship and healthy development of the individual, regardless of the path they choose, is t promote unconditional love, open communication, and self esteem.

I was not aware of this data. Thank you for posting it as I will follow up on it later this evening. I knew that many transgender people go untreated and that more transgender teens are coming out because of the lack of social stigma and more knowledge of the subject that formerly kept people closeted, in denial, and very unhappy.

A college friend of my daughter came out to me as being non-binary because she felt safe. I had no idea because when I knew her she was very girly and lived in heels and short skirts. She is in her 3rd year of medical residenacy.

 

[Lisa]

Just the increase in numbers doesnt invalidate their conditions or how it is presented (socially or otherwise). We experienced the same thing with domestic abuse...hidden for years and people still reminisce over how 'wonderful' those post-WW2 years were. That's BS. Domestic abuse, child abuse and molestation, being gay…all were just hidden, not less prevalent.

And more recently we are seeing sexual harassment incidences steeply rising. Is that because they weren't happening before? Absolutely not. Many of us remember such incidents in the workplace, or were personally harassed or abused…and know it wasn’t reported.

This is just a statement that isn't necessarily in disagreement with yours, as I'm not clear on what conclusion you've drawn.

I lived that child abuse in the late 1960s and 1970s, and I thought that somehow it was normal. It wasn't until about 8 years ago that I was diagnosed with complex PTSD. I had no idea that PTSD was possible for people we ho were vets or first responders.

They always just told me that I had an anxiety disorder and wrote it off with that.

 

[VanceMack]

Just the increase in numbers doesnt invalidate their conditions or how it is presented (socially or otherwise). We experienced the same thing with domestic abuse...hidden for years and people still reminisce over how 'wonderful' those post-WW2 years were. That's BS. Domestic abuse, child abuse and molestation, being gay…all were just hidden, not less prevalent.

And more recently we are seeing sexual harassment incidences steeply rising. Is that because they werent happening before? Absolutely not. Many of us remember such incidents in the workplace, or were personally harassed or abused…and know it wasn’t reported.

This is just a statement that isnt necessarily in disagreement with yours, as I'm not clear on what conclusion you've drawn.

Psychology is a soft science. I tend to not put too much stock in what the APA decides the DSM says we should be concerned about for the next decade or so til they come out and try to clean up the messes they created with the last few iterations.

I think the traditional numbers are pretty correct. I doubt the number of people that have struggled with gender issues has changed all that much and I believe that most people, gladly...happily...tended to work things out for themselves. I believe what the research indicates is probably pretty correct...there are a LOT of people right now struggling not with their gender identities but with their identities period. Did you ever see one of those games with a bunch of BBs in a container with a cardboard bottom and you have to move the BBs around til they find the indentation thy fit in? I think thats going on in ways we have never experienced in the past. Everyone is looking for an issue, a cause, an identity. I think gender is one of those areas. And I say that with the caveat (and respect) that those TRULY impacted by what we traditionally identified as gender dysphoria...probably are still right around the same percentage.

 

[Lursa]

Psychology is a soft science. I tend to not put too much stock in what the APA decides the DSM says we should be concerned about for the next decade or so til they come out and try to clean up the messes they created with the last few iterations.

Which previous messes can you give me as examples?

 

[VanceMack]

Which previous messes can you give me as examples?

My heck...take your pick. Homosexuality is a mental illness. Theres no such thing as MPD...TADA...look...Multiple Personality Disorders are now a thing...wait...psych...never mind. Whew...Asperger's....I KNEW my husband had SOMETHING. Wiat...what do you mean theres no such thing as Aspergers???? Axis 2 diagnosis...yes! Wait..Axis? What's an Axis?

The panels that define diagnosis will say its because we are responding to the latest research...but thats kind of the problem. And dont think that process isnt political.

 

[Lursa]

My heck...take your pick. Homosexuality is a mental illness. Theres no such thing as MPD...TADA...look...Multiple Personality Disorders are now a thing...wait...psych...never mind. Whew...Asperger's....I KNEW my husband had SOMETHING. Wiat...what do you mean theres no such thing as Aspergers???? Axis 2 diagnosis...yes! Wait..Axis? What's an Axis?

The panels that define diagnosis will say its because we are responding to the latest research...but thats kind of the problem. And dont think that process isnt political.

As far as I can tell, all of those were misdiagnosed, ignored, etc in the past and that current views are accurate or being intelligently/responsibly debated and researched. For ex....I see no definitive statements on Asbergers or autism, but certainly more awareness and resources into them. And already more social acceptance and better treatments.

So I dont see what 'messes' were created. Is it messy when heavily biased and tightly held beliefs are rectified, exposed, etc? Sure. But certainly they are justified and are better in the long run.

 

[VanceMack]

As far as I can tell, all of those were misdiagnosed, ignored, etc in the past and that current views are accurate or being intelligently/responsibly debated and researched. For ex....I see no definitive statements on Asbergers or autism, but certainly more awareness and resources into them. And already more social acceptance and better treatments.

So I dont see what 'messes' were created. Is it messy when heavily biased and tightly held beliefs are rectified, exposed, etc? Sure. But certainly they are justified and are better in the long run.

You might see it differently if you or a family member was one of the millions that was given a diagnostic 'label'...an identity...only to have that ripped away. Believe it or not some people actually find comfort in their diagnosis. In the midst of their confusion it gives them an understanding calm.

I dont think we are today doing people any favors.

 

[Lursa]

You might see it differently if you or a family member was one of the millions that was given a diagnostic 'label'...an identity...only to have that ripped away. Believe it or not some people actually find comfort in their diagnosis. In the midst of their confusion it gives them an understanding calm.

I dont think we are today doing people any favors.

One thing that may apply is the (I believe) overdiagnosing and medicating of kids for ADD. But that's the only thing pervasive in society that I can think of.

I dont see any reason to dispute finding comfort in a diagnosis...unless you are implying it's not accurate. That happens with other medical diagnosis too, as well as continually finding newer and better treatments, learning old were ineffective, etc.

I think it's a natural and expected result of research, even if sometimes unfortunate.

 

[gulfman]

I'd like to see Jenner in the Olympics and win a medal in women's events.It would be historic.Win as a man and win as a women.

 

[VanceMack]

One thing that may apply is the (I believe) overdiagnosing and medicating of kids for ADD. But that's the only thing pervasive in society that I can think of.

I dont see any reason to dispute finding comfort in a diagnosis...unless you are implying it's not accurate. That happens with other medical diagnosis too, as well as continually finding newer and better treatments, learning old were ineffective, etc.

I think it's a natural and expected result of research, even if sometimes unfortunate.

Havent you heard? the ADD diagnosis was eliminated in the DSM 5.

 

[3leftsdoo]

Ok, well then, maybe the female brain can't excel at anything. Maybe we should stay out of the kitchen also. Stay in the bedroom?

The female brain excels at all kinds of things, as does the male.

But there are significant differences between the two, as there are between people.

Women = Bad NFL middle linebackers

Men = Generally not so great at minding large groups of small children

YMMV

 

[Lursa]

Havent you heard? the ADD diagnosis was eliminated in the DSM 5.

Uh huh, cool.

 

[Good4Nothin]

It's really ethereal, but best illustrated by groups of guys talking v. a group of women v. a mix. The three conversations will be totally different.

I have observed male vs female my whole life. It is true that the conversations will be different. Men are more likely to talk about the world, politics, their work. Women talk about the home, children, health, cooking. You don't see a lot of women here at this forum.

So yes, the gender roles are different. That doesn't mean the mind is actually different.

But maybe I don't have a typical female mind. I would rather talk to the men.

 

[Good4Nothin]

Transgdered people don't want to be non-conformists. They want to fit in and surprisingly most transgender people often desire to fit into very stereotypical gender roles, even if they have careers that are not always stereotypical. They want a body that aligns with their psychological gender identity so they can be comfortable in their skin their appearance and in a sexual role.

How would you feel if you had a male body when you look in the mirror, a deep male voice and everyone thought that you were male and yet you know that you were female with very feminine drives and desires? That is where transgender people find themselves. How is this so difficult for your to understand unless you can't accept that is actually happens because you dont think that it can?

Transgdered people feel alien in their own body so they desperately need that treatment to feel somewhat whole and complete in their own body, even though that treatment leaves much to be desired.

Yeah you keep repeating that. But you admit they are trying to conform. That's the mistake. After people become adults they usually stop trying so hard to conform.

If I suddenly turned into a man, that would take a while to adjust to. But if I had been born male, with the same mind I have now, it would not have been a problem. Except for being attracted to straight males -- but that's orientation not identification. And you keep saying they are different.

Especially for anyone who is artistic and creative, and not very conformist, having an ambiguous gender identity is pretty normal. I would not be driving myself crazy over being the "wrong" gender. I would probably have long hair and earrings, but now days no one would be shocked.

 

[Good4Nothin]

Once again you are very misinformed or very ignorant. The concept of our gender identity develops before we are 4 years old. The concept of our sexual orientation doesn't develop for another 5-10 years when we are teens. Did you not know whether you were a girl or a boy when you started kindergarten? Transgendered children know their body is one gender but they also know that they feel different. They aren't aware of the term transgender or what it means but they do know what their psychological gender identity is and they want clothes and toys that express it.

When I started kindergarten I knew I was forced to wear a dress. Which was not convenient when climbing at the playground. Yes I knew I was female because I wasn't allowed to dress like a boy. There was no internal feeling of being female. Little girls are very often tom boys who are very active, and not interested in sitting around looking pretty.

When I got near adolescence I was interested in boys, and wanted them to like me. That's the reason I started caring how I looked. There was no inner force saying "I am a girl." Identity is complex and teenagers have many aspects of identity to sort out. Gender roles are one aspect of it -- how to dress and act so the opposite sex will like you.

 

[Good4Nothin]

My heck...take your pick. Homosexuality is a mental illness. Theres no such thing as MPD...TADA...look...Multiple Personality Disorders are now a thing...wait...psych...never mind. Whew...Asperger's....I KNEW my husband had SOMETHING. Wiat...what do you mean theres no such thing as Aspergers???? Axis 2 diagnosis...yes! Wait..Axis? What's an Axis?

The panels that define diagnosis will say its because we are responding to the latest research...but thats kind of the problem. And dont think that process isnt political.

Yeah. Really, you can't take every psychology research report seriously. It is so easy to contrive research to show whatever politically correct thing you want to show. But if you want to do genuine psychology research it is so darn difficult. Psychologists, and other scientists, are alway trying to get funding. You don't get funding simply by being creative and intelligent. Some agency has to care about your research plans.

 

[Good4Nothin]

I'd like to see Jenner in the Olympics and win a medal in women's events.It would be historic.Win as a man and win as a women.

It's really easy for a biological male to win if competing against women. Nothing historic about that. Just plain unfair.

 

[Good4Nothin]

The female brain excels at all kinds of things, as does the male.

But there are significant differences between the two, as there are between people.

Women = Bad NFL middle linebackers

Men = Generally not so great at minding large groups of small children

YMMV

It isn't our female mind that prevents us from being middle linebackers.

And I would be useless at minding large groups of small children. Or even one. Anyone can learn that with experience.

What do you think are real differences in male and female MINDS, that prevents either from doing what the other does?

 

[Lisa]

When I started kindergarten I knew I was forced to wear a dress. Which was not convenient when climbing at the playground. Yes I knew I was female because I wasn't allowed to dress like a boy. There was no internal feeling of being female. Little girls are very often tom boys who are very active, and not interested in sitting around looking pretty.

When I got near adolescence I was interested in boys, and wanted them to like me. That's the reason I started caring how I looked. There was no inner force saying "I am a girl." Identity is complex and teenagers have many aspects of identity to sort out. Gender roles are one aspect of it -- how to dress and act so the opposite sex will like you.

My childhood was different than your because I wanted to wear dresses. I guess I also matured faster because I liked boys in 4th grade.