My incredibly unpopular view on trans people

[Good4Nothin]

Why would a parent choose to have a child be transgendered? They would want their child born with the gendered body that aligns with their psychological gender identity, unless you want to see your child suffer and have to undergo years of treatment to even be halfway comfortable in their own body?

Solution: Don't undergo years of treatment, only wind up "halfway comfortable." Be yourself, ignore outdated cultural norms. Now days non-conformists are generally accepted, especially in the more intellectually sophisticated, or artistic, areas.

 

[Good4Nothin]

Um nope. We were specifically discussing gender-based presentations like dress, makeup (on none), how one presents themself...based on the gender they feel. Not for other reasons.

If one is a 'social creature,' wouldnt one want to make more of the effort to fit in rather than present as one identifies?

(Yes, I agree that humans are social creatures...and this is what makes this so sad and so difficult for many LBGT...the conflict between trying to fit in and trying to be who they are.)

They are overly concerned with trying to conform to outdated norms.

 

[Good4Nothin]

No, as usual, you are not correct.

It's not about being part of a minority because we are all part of a minority group in some way. . It is the long term medical care that still doesn't give them the ability to be complete. I am 100% supportive of transgendered people but they would have rather been born in the right body then have to undergo treatment and take hormones for the rest of their life.

If you asked transgendered people they don't want to be trans They would much prefer to have the full, functional and complete body that aligns with the psychological gender identity.

And I would much rather have functioning wings.

 

[Good4Nothin]

I think the problem here is you cannot define the question in a meaningful way. What does it mean to feel like a man? What does it mean to feel like a woman? What defines what is masculine and what is feminine so I can ascribe a label to what I am feeling?

No one knows. The transgender advocates are pretending to know.

 

[Good4Nothin]

Not really. How many people question their sexual orientation? Isnt that more than 'just a feeling?' It is for me.

And while some people may fill in a range with respect to orientation (it may not be black & white), it's still clearly an instinctive singular drive for most.

Sexual attraction is an instinctive singular drive. Gender identification is not.

 

[Irredentist]

Some of us here are trying to explain that gender identity is mostly cultural. Do people really have to be such conformists, that they must fit into one of the 2 gender roles? Really?

Is there something wrong with wanting to conform to your preferred gender role?

 

[Good4Nothin]

I'm not sure if you are deliberately twisting my words to support your opinions or if you are simple unable to understand what I am saying because of an intellectual problem.
Life is hard for people when they have a disability and it is hard for the parents to see a child suffer and have to work harder than others and no child wants to see a child hurt. I am not saying that a parent doesn't want a child that is different, as you are trying to insinuate. I never one said or even hinted at what you are tying to put in my mouth. If this is what you are tying to do then dont bother replying because I'm tired of your childish game.
sick
Being transgendered is very painful and a parent doesn't want a child to have to be an outsider and be bullied and a target for bigots as most transgendered kids are. Trans kids are much different from their friends as teens and that is also difficult for the child and makes their life harder than it should be especially when being a teen is already tough. As a parent it hurts when your child is in pain and doesn't feel good or is treated as an outsider and you want to make it right but there are something that parent love or assistance cant fix and that makes it hard on you when you can't do anything to help them be happy.

Children and teenagers are bullied for being different in any way. That's because children and teenagers are extremely conformist, they are learning to fit into the society. There is very little tolerance. So of course gays and transgenders have a harder time in school. But this is true of anyone who is different.

As people grow up and find a social environment they fit into, there is less bullying. Trying to transform yourself into the opposite sex because of childhood bullying doesn't actually make sense.

 

[Irredentist]

Solution: Don't undergo years of treatment, only wind up "halfway comfortable." Be yourself, ignore outdated cultural norms. Now days non-conformists are generally accepted, especially in the more intellectually sophisticated, or artistic, areas.

If you actually want people to be "themselves", then you have to accept what they choose, even if that means conforming to outdated cultural norms. Or rejecting them entirely. There's no right answer.

 

[Good4Nothin]

I never said anything of what you are saying. You are trying to suggest that I agree with you and I abhor your ideas. Either knock it off or don't reply to me.

I am not saying that they are imperfect.

Well, if they were born into the "wrong" body, that means they aren't perfect.

 

[Irredentist]

There is too much pressure to be "gender affirming" and politically correct.

You think trans people are being pressured to undergo hormone therapy and surgery? In my experience it's quite the opposite. Most people try and convince them not to.

 

[3leftsdoo]

So you are arguing for sex discrimination? Women are less qualified for certain jobs? Maybe they should remain in the kitchen, where their female brain can excel?

:roll:

Silly leap. Perhaps, and men for others. If you say so, but many/most of the great chefs are men.

:shrug:

 

[3leftsdoo]

I never said anything of what you are saying. You are trying to suggest that I agree with you and I abhor your ideas. Either knock it off or don't reply to me.

I am not saying that they are imperfect.

eace

 

[Good4Nothin]

There are factors that you are purposely avoiding and not taking into account. There is the idea that you know what a person is thinking therefore you have the answer...despite the fact that you have no training in psychology or biochemistry of the human body. You made an assumption with nothing to back it with. Meanwhile, there are psychologists and psychiatrists who study this very issue and will look at your pop-culture assumption and tell you that it is far more complex than that.

A transgender person feels out of place in their own body. It is not an emulation they are seeking as you suggest, but balance between mind and body. Social norms have nothing to do with it. The mind believes itself to be one sex, but the body is of another and the reconciliation is difficult at best. That is not a social construct, but a mental state of being. That mental state can also be compounded if the person is also born with an imbalance of hormones. And again, that has nothing to do with social construct. In other words, the mind is not feminine because it wants to be feminine...but because the mind itself IS feminine. Or vice versa, or whatever, you get the idea. There is no choice. It is what it is.

You are making the assumption that the mind is always the same as the body, therefore the reason for changing sexes in some way or form is an act of choice. That is incorrect. Psychology pretty much tells us that your assumption is wrong. Now, its up to you to accept that (which you probably won't as it doesn't fit your worldview) or not. And we haven't even started on talking about intersex persons....and that concept TOTALLY blows your theory right out of the water.....

You are just repeating the gender affirming dogma. The mind can be male or female? Aside from any cultural stereotypes? There is no valid reason to assume that.

And you think only professionals can have an opinion on this? They have to go along with the political correctness of the moment, and cannot think independently. And nothing is known in psychology about whether the mind can be feminine or masculine, apart from social stereotypes about what "feminine" or "masculine" mean.

 

[Good4Nothin]

Is there something wrong with wanting to conform to your preferred gender role?

Yes. Experimenting with your health for no good reason is wrong. Especially when pre-adolescents are given puberty blocking drugs, and adolescents are given opposite sex hormones. And later on, possible surgery.

Children and teenagers often feel a need to conform. They also have faith in parents and doctors to perform miracles. Therefore, they should not be making these permanent decisions.

 

[Good4Nothin]

If you actually want people to be "themselves", then you have to accept what they choose, even if that means conforming to outdated cultural norms. Or rejecting them entirely. There's no right answer.

I can't stop them from doing whatever they want. I am expressing an opinion here.

 

[Good4Nothin]

You think trans people are being pressured to undergo hormone therapy and surgery? In my experience it's quite the opposite. Most people try and convince them not to.

There is pressure on the medical profession to be gender affirming and politically correct. To believe a child who claims to be the wrong sex. Instead of being skeptical, and acknowledging that children are not always in touch with reality.

 

[Irwin Corey]

Okay, so I have gotten a lot of flak from liberals and conservatives on my view on trans people. I have some friends on Facebook who are trans and we have had some nasty arguments before. To boil it down I think the whole trans thing is stupid but for the complete opposite reason that the traditionalists take issue with it.

Here is the deal...pretty much all gender normative stereotypes are culture specific. What does that mean? Well pretty much if you can think of a gender specific behavior that is masculine or feminine then you can find historical examples where the opposite gender has practiced it.

Men wore makeup in ancient Egypt. Men wore skirts in Scotland. Men shaved they legs in Ancient Rome. Men wore corsettes in Europe. And it goes on and on. Every example you can think of gender normative behavior is socially constructed.

So trans people who are fixated on "being" the opposite gender tend to be people who are fixated stereotypes of gender, not real differences in gender. Wearing a dress or using lipstick are cultural specific signifiers of gender, not anything that is innate or historically universal.

That isn't to say there are not significant neurological differences between men and women. There are, but there are probably more significant differences between how liberals and conservatives think than there are between how men and women think. Because of how we stereotype gender we tend to over accentuate the differences, but if I gave someone a stack of anonymous completed surveys that measured factors of personality, intelligence, aptitude, and values, there is very little chance they would be able to sort them into a pile for men and pile for women based on the results of each survey.

So in essence I see the whole trans thing as a social construct in response to the social construct of gender normative stereotypes.

High heals were originally designed for men in France; I think, if I remember correctly, Louie 14 was pretty short, but, yes sartorial norms change and swing like a pendulum. I don't really know anything much about transgender people, I've only know three and none well. Two were males dressing like women and one was a woman dressing like a man; I have to say the woman dressing like a man was much more convincing than either guy. The guys hands, 5 o'clock shadow and voices were dead give a way's.

But, being hetero sexual all my life and not the type to "settle down" when I was younger; the upshot is I've known quite a few women quite well. And though it's hard to imagine more polarized thinking than die hard conservatives and liberals I'll call bull**** on men and women's thinking being closer; "Men are from Mars - Women are from Venus" wasn't written because "stereotypical" men and women are the same … in any way. We definitely behave like we're from different planets; my observation has been that men and women are so different I'm surprised we have babies when we breed.

I'm sure a survey could be designed to hide the gender of respondents and vice versa, but your statement; "if I gave someone a stack of anonymous completed surveys that measured factors of personality, intelligence, aptitude, and values, there is very little chance they would be able to sort them into a pile for men and pile for women based on the results of each survey.", would be highly survey dependent. I'll wager any statistician or psychologist would agree.

I don't know what to make of your last sentence, it sounds important; but I fail to find any significance.

 

[Good4Nothin]

:roll:

Silly leap. Perhaps, and men for others. If you say so, but many/most of the great chefs are men.

:shrug:

Ok, well then, maybe the female brain can't excel at anything. Maybe we should stay out of the kitchen also. Stay in the bedroom?

 

[Good4Nothin]

High heals were originally designed for men in France; I think, if I remember correctly, Louie 14 was pretty short, but, yes sartorial norms change and swing like a pendulum. I don't really know anything much about transgender people, I've only know three and none well. Two were males dressing like women and one was a woman dressing like a man; I have to say the woman dressing like a man was much more convincing than either guy. The guys hands, 5 o'clock shadow and voices were dead give a way's.

But, being hetero sexual all my life and not the type to "settle down" when I was younger; the upshot is I've known quite a few women quite well. And though it's hard to imagine more polarized thinking than die hard conservatives and liberals I'll call bull**** on men and women's thinking being closer; "Men are from Mars - Women are from Venus" wasn't written because "stereotypical" men and women are the same … in any way. We definitely behave like we're from different planets; my observation has been that men and women are so different I'm surprised we have babies when we breed.

I'm sure a survey could be designed to hide the gender of respondents and vice versa, but your statement; "if I gave someone a stack of anonymous completed surveys that measured factors of personality, intelligence, aptitude, and values, there is very little chance they would be able to sort them into a pile for men and pile for women based on the results of each survey.", would be highly survey dependent. I'll wager any statistician or psychologist would agree.

I don't know what to make of your last sentence, it sounds important; but I fail to find any significance.

Your experience with women was mostly in a sexual/romantic context. And you haven't even given one example of those big differences you mention.

If we didn't have little sex symbols on our profiles here, it would be hard to know who is male or female. At forums that don't have them, I was always assumed to be male.

 

[Lursa]

Some of us here are trying to explain that gender identity is mostly cultural. Do people really have to be such conformists, that they must fit into one of the 2 gender roles? Really?

Nothing I've written so far concedes that point at all. If you havent read my posts before responding, then they'll mostly look like your current one...irrelevant.

 

[Lursa]

They are overly concerned with trying to conform to outdated norms.

Not sure if you are clipping my posts or just not reading the ones that set the foundation but:

Nothing I've written so far concedes that point at all. If you havent read my posts before responding, then they'll mostly look like your current one...irrelevant.

 

[Lursa]

Sexual attraction is an instinctive singular drive. Gender identification is not.

Prove it. That's what the discussion is about.

And something that I have addressed in several other posts.

 

[Irwin Corey]

Your experience with women was mostly in a sexual/romantic context. And you haven't even given one example of those big differences you mention.

If we didn't have little sex symbols on our profiles here, it would be hard to know who is male or female. At forums that don't have them, I was always assumed to be male.

Anybody that's been in a "relationship" of any length knows that when the new wears off and it gets "day to day" and you have to live with each others "differences" … "the truth will out". I've really loved and been devoted to a few women … no way was our thinking process's the same.

I agree, I've been surprised to find out the gender of some posters, but, as often as not (maybe more) the surprise was due to my own preconceptions from something like their choice of avatar or something other than what they had to say.

 

[Good4Nothin]

Anybody that's been in a "relationship" of any length knows that when the new wears off and it gets "day to day" and you have to live with each others "differences" … "the truth will out". I've really loved and been devoted to a few women … no way was our thinking process's the same.

I agree, I've been surprised to find out the gender of some posters, but, as often as not (maybe more) the surprise was due to my own preconceptions from something like their choice of avatar or something other than what they had to say.

Why don't you ever say anything about how your thinking processes were different? I have absolutely no idea how my thinking process could be different just because I am female.

I have never been very interested in cars, or in team sports. But not all men are interested in those. And aside from that, my thinking and preferences don't seem all that tied to my gender.

 

[Irwin Corey]

Why don't you ever say anything about how your thinking processes were different? I have absolutely no idea how my thinking process could be different just because I am female.

I have never been very interested in cars, or in team sports. But not all men are interested in those. And aside from that, my thinking and preferences don't seem all that tied to my gender.

It's really ethereal, but best illustrated by groups of guys talking v. a group of women v. a mix. The three conversations will be totally different.