My Impressions So Far

[bhkad]

I'm new here and my main impression so far is that I like the forum and the people here but I am amazed, shocked, perplexed at the almost exclusive reliance on 'maneuvering' and 'tap dancing' as the common way of exchanging ideas.

Frankly, I have never seen a forum where so many posters simply used their opinion and literary wrestling as the accepted rule of the day.

What I find this leads to is misinformation and a breeding ground for ignorance. When you are misinformed about an event and others share that same misinformed view, when you all exchange posts expressing the same point of view you reinforce that inaccurate belief.

And then when someone else comes along and opposes that view but can't wrestle very well and his point of view is defeated then the original skewed perception gains even more credibility.

And that is what I have found to be the case here. Several times I have seen posters who share my point of view but have been wrestled into accepting a skewed version of the facts.

And all the time I am thinking to myself as I read, "doesn't ANYONE bother to use Google here???" :shock:

But throughout this morning I have been citing facts and expert analysis on certain subjects and the response I've gotten has been to try to confront my facts from unimpeachable sources (complete with links) with literary wrestling moves. WTF???

It's like there ARE NO SUCH THINGS AS FACTS here. EVERYTHING is subject to debate.

I like to wrestle as much as the next guy but this stuff is like the Black Knight having his arms cut off and still thinking he can fight.

When you don't have facts to support your contention YOU LOSE!

At least that's the way it is in the real world. :roll:

Anyway, I wanted to get that off my chest without directing it AT anyone in particular.

I feel better now.

Thankyouverymuch.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

Give it more time, you're too quck to judge.

Before I begin, I would like to recommend you use the "Come in and Say Hi" section of the forum to introduce yourself to us, if you plan on a long stay here.

I'm new here and my main impression so far is that I like the forum and the people here but I am amazed, shocked, perplexed at the almost exclusive reliance on 'maneuvering' and 'tap dancing' as the common way of exchanging ideas.

No forum is perfect, but you shouldn't throw stones. (See post #93 in http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaking-news/20523-ron-paul-republicans-need-reagans-courage-withdraw-iraq-10.html

Frankly, I have never seen a forum where so many posters simply used their opinion and literary wrestling as the accepted rule of the day.

Never? I've seen much worse elsewhere. However if you stay, you'll find that deceptive tactics and logical fallacies are very quickly pointed out on this board. Again, see post #93.

What I find this leads to is misinformation and a breeding ground for ignorance. When you are misinformed about an event and others share that same misinformed view, when you all exchange posts expressing the same point of view you reinforce that inaccurate belief.

2 problems here:

1. You just called this board a breeding ground for ignorance, Bad movie new guy.
2. You're under the mistaken impression that we are a group think forum. Please acquiant yourself with the diversity that we all enjoy here on DP. Check the demographics.

And then when someone else comes along and opposes that view but can't wrestle very well and his point of view is defeated then the original skewed perception gains even more credibility.

This may be true to an extent. As they said in "Thank You for Smoking:"

"That's the beauty of argument, if you argue correctly, you're never wrong."

However, very few people on this board get away with illogical aggressive jargon.

And that is what I have found to be the case here. Several times I have seen posters who share my point of view but have been wrestled into accepting a skewed version of the facts.

What people accept to be true is their own problem.

And all the time I am thinking to myself as I read, "doesn't ANYONE bother to use Google here???" :shock:

A great many of our veterans are quite skilled at citing a source for their claims, and will keep you on your toes if you're speaking from your gut.

But throughout this morning I have been citing facts and expert analysis on certain subjects and the response I've gotten has been to try to confront my facts from unimpeachable sources (complete with links) with literary wrestling moves. WTF???

Not on any thread I've seen you on. Again, see post #93

It's like there ARE NO SUCH THINGS AS FACTS here. EVERYTHING is subject to debate.

Just because someone states that their assertion is a fact, doesn't make it so. People ask for sources FOR THE VERY REASON that facts are subject to debate, and you'd better be able to support your claim that it is a fact with a source.

I like to wrestle as much as the next guy but this stuff is like the Black Knight having his arms cut off and still thinking he can fight.

When you don't have facts to support your contention YOU LOSE!

At least that's the way it is in the real world. :roll:

Anyway, I wanted to get that off my chest without directing it AT anyone in particular.

I feel better now.

Thankyouverymuch.

Now that you've gotten that off your chest, allow me to get something off of mine. I don't see this rant as anything more than an unfair criticism of DP by someone who hasn't put in the time. We don't all think alike, and a capacity for fact checking and logical fallacy identification is highly valued here.

Don't be so quick to judge the entire forum in one day. What was the purpose of this self-serving post?

 

[Tashah]

Nice rant bhkad and welcome to DP. :2wave:

:tink: Tashah

 

[Tashah]

btw... Lachean provided you some excellent advice. Be prepared to argue your points with crystal clarity, cold logic, and legitimate sources. If you feel that your pov is right... never raise the white flag unless and until you are proven to be indisputably wrong.

Enjoy! :mrgreen:

 

[Simon W. Moon]

I look forward to you helping to set a good example.

Glad to have you.

 

[Iriemon]

btw... Lachean provided you some excellent advice. Be prepared to argue your points with crystal clarity, cold logic, and legitimate sources. If you feel that your pov is right... never raise the white flag unless and until you are proven to be indisputably wrong.

Enjoy! :mrgreen:

LOL -- and when does being "proven to be indisputably wrong" ever dissuade anyone?

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Ah, bhkad, my secret CaptainCourtesy powers alerted me to your presence when I detected a minor disturbance in the Force, yesterday. A courtesous welcome to Debate Politics. Please prepare to battle. :mrgreen:

 

[bhkad]

Re: Give it more time, you're too quck to judge.

Don't be so quick to judge the entire forum in one day. What was the purpose of this self-serving post?

"...I wanted to get that off my chest without directing it AT anyone in particular."

I feel better now.

Thankyouverymuch.

I rest my case.

 

[bhkad]

Nice rant bhkad and welcome to DP. :2wave:

:tink : Tashah

:thank : bhkad

 

[bhkad]

btw... Lachean provided you some excellent advice. Be prepared to argue your points with crystal clarity, cold logic, and legitimate sources. If you feel that your pov is right... never raise the white flag unless and until you are proven to be indisputably wrong.

Enjoy! :mrgreen :

:thank : :mrbhkad :

 

[bhkad]

I look forward to you helping to set a good example.

Glad to have you.

Thanks! 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10

 

[bhkad]

LOL -- and when does being "proven to be indisputably wrong" ever dissuade anyone?

And that is my suspicion about this place. One I hope is not true. More than I have ever before seen in this country there is a growing trend in this day and age to manufacture truth by popular acclaim.

If enough people SAY a lie is the truth then it will BE the truth.

And please let's not beg the question, 'what is the truth?' Ok? :mrgreen:

 

[bhkad]

Ah, bhkad, my secret CaptainCourtesy powers alerted me to your presence when I detected a minor disturbance in the Force, yesterday. A courtesous welcome to Debate Politics. Please prepare to battle. :mrgreen:

There's not a horse that cain't be rode. And there ain't a cowboy that cain't be throwed.

But I'm wearing my spurs and ready to ride.

 

[Schweddy]

And that is my suspicion about this place. One I hope is not true. More than I have ever before seen in this country there is a growing trend in this day and age to manufacture truth by popular acclaim.

If enough people SAY a lie is the truth then it will BE the truth.

And please let's not beg the question, 'what is the truth?' Ok? :mrgreen:

Your truths are different than mine.
Your political position may be different than mine.
Your attitude may different than mine.
Your definition of facts are definitely different than mine.
You might be green or purple.
I might be grey or blue.
You might be shorter or taller.
You might even have a higher IQ.

(haha that rhymed)

However, that should not stop us from discussing, debating, or simply talking about the world around us. Somewhere in between we can merge and come up with ideas we can all agree with - that is where the *truth* really lie. That is what makes us human and that is what brings us to the next level as a society.

There is no reason to suspect, worry, or loose any sleep. What you see is what you get.

Welcome to Debate Politics.

 

[Iriemon]

And that is my suspicion about this place. One I hope is not true. More than I have ever before seen in this country there is a growing trend in this day and age to manufacture truth by popular acclaim.

If enough people SAY a lie is the truth then it will BE the truth.

And please let's not beg the question, 'what is the truth?' Ok? :mrgreen:

Sure thing, and I look forward to you giving us a good example by admitting your errors when you are shown the truth.

 

[Gardener]

Let's face it -- many, if not most people say things because other people say things. They don't always think about what they are saying, necessarily,as much of what people say operates on the level of memes. As such, our beliefs in many regards act as articles of faith -- faith in the group or person who delivered the message. Especially when people are highly partisan and dogmatic by nature, these acts of faith become their truth, and their truth demands the carefull selection of facts so to support that truth.


Superstition is the norm and rationality the anomaly throughout human history, so why should today be any different? Just be glad that the villagers haven't begun gathering the firewood with which to build your pyre.

 

[Tashah]

LOL -- and when does being "proven to be indisputably wrong" ever dissuade anyone?

That was actually tongue-in cheek satire. Perhaps a bit too subtle lol.

 

[1069]

It's like there ARE NO SUCH THINGS AS FACTS here. EVERYTHING is subject to debate.

I like to wrestle as much as the next guy but this stuff is like the Black Knight having his arms cut off and still thinking he can fight.

When you don't have facts to support your contention YOU LOSE!

Well, in that case, it should be really easy for you to kick everybody's butt here, dominate every debate, and declare yourself the Supreme Poobah of DP, n'est ce pas?

On the other hand, if we truly suck that bad, we might bore you after awhile, and you might tire of wiping the floor with us and just go away.

That would be awfully sad. We'd all really, really miss you.

(... not.)

 

[bhkad]

Your truths are different than mine.
Your political position may be different than mine.
Your attitude may different than mine.
Your definition of facts are definitely different than mine.
You might be green or purple.
I might be grey or blue.
You might be shorter or taller.
You might even have a higher IQ.

(haha that rhymed)

However, that should not stop us from discussing, debating, or simply talking about the world around us. Somewhere in between we can merge and come up with ideas we can all agree with - that is where the *truth* really lie. That is what makes us human and that is what brings us to the next level as a society.

There is no reason to suspect, worry, or loose any sleep. What you see is what you get.

Welcome to Debate Politics.

Nice post. But let's be clear, I believe there ARE some absolute truths that are not a matter of relativity. And despite our colors, I.Q.'s, heights, weights, genders, orientations, if we are Americans and we love America we must have CERTAIN absolute truths.

That is, generally, where I stand my ground.

 

[bhkad]

Sure thing, and I look forward to you giving us a good example by admitting your errors when you are shown the truth.

Finding the truth & the preservation of America.

Anything that helps me to achieve those two aims is to be valued and appreciated.

 

[bhkad]

Let's face it -- many, if not most people say things because other people say things. They don't always think about what they are saying, necessarily,as much of what people say operates on the level of memes. As such, our beliefs in many regards act as articles of faith -- faith in the group or person who delivered the message. Especially when people are highly partisan and dogmatic by nature, these acts of faith become their truth, and their truth demands the carefull selection of facts so to support that truth.


Superstition is the norm and rationality the anomaly throughout human history, so why should today be any different? Just be glad that the villagers haven't begun gathering the firewood with which to build your pyre.

Let's face it -- many, if not most people say things because other people say things. They don't always think about what they are saying, necessarily,as much of what people say operates on the level of memes.

Sorry. I couldn't resist. Tee hee!

 

[Schweddy]

Of course there are absolute truths - reread my post.

For example:
The truth is we pay taxes and that is an *absolute*.

Saying there is a God - is a truth to many, but cannot be an *absolute* truth as some deny that claim regardless of the levels of facts given.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To be thourough, lets argue facts:

It is a fact that we pay taxes.

It is a fact there is a book called The Bible. In fact, in there are definitions of the Christian God.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When we can all agree, we can state them as facts and *absolutes*:

We pay taxes.
God has not been proven to everyone that he/she exists.


--------------------------------------------
So, if you are only willing to deal in *absolutes* - your discussion will be boring, brief, and belligerent to many users.

 

[bhkad]

Well, in that case, it should be really easy for you to kick everybody's butt here, dominate every debate, and declare yourself the Supreme Poobah of DP, n'est ce pas?

On the other hand, if we truly suck that bad, we might bore you after awhile, and you might tire of wiping the floor with us and just go away.

That would be awfully sad. We'd all really, really miss you.

(... not.)

Ah, the chase! :mrgreen:

 

[bhkad]

Of course there are absolute truths - reread my post.

For example:
The truth is we pay taxes and that is an *absolute*.

Saying there is a God - is a truth to many, but cannot be an *absolute* truth as some deny that claim regardless of the levels of facts given.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To be thourough, lets argue facts:

It is a fact that we pay taxes.

It is a fact there is a book called The Bible. In fact, in there are definitions of the Christian God.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When we can all agree, we can state them as facts and *absolutes*:

We pay taxes.
God has not been proven to everyone that he/she exists.


--------------------------------------------
So, if you are only willing to deal in *absolutes* - your discussion will be boring, brief, and belligerent to many users.

Ha. Save this post and refer to it in a year. :mrgreen:

 

[Schweddy]

Absolutely

Unsure if it can be done, feel free to prove me wrong. You would gain massive respect from me if you could only deal in absolutes; plus create lenthy discourse, interesting subject matter and remain passive in your commentary.

People do not like to hear what they already know.

You are already off:
"But throughout this morning I have been citing facts and expert analysis on certain subjects and the response I've gotten has been to try to confront my facts from unimpeachable sources (complete with links) with literary wrestling moves. WTF???"

You would not get those responses if it they were *absolute* truths.