Muslims Urged to Kill 'Blasphemers' in U.K.

[Auvergnat]

Anyone who incites imminent violent action against specific others should not have free speech protection. The Ohio vs Brandenburg test is valid here.

You may be surprised to hear that the US law does not apply in the UK. The EU rules are actually a lot more authoritarian than the US ones, yet they have never been used against Muslims afaik.

Now you dodged the question, so let me answer for you: following *your* logic the Koran should be outlawed since it directly calls to murder.

Aw Goddd... is this like your nuke attacks by muslims on power stations? (the thing that never happened?)

You are deliberately distorting my statements. Muslims *are* trying to infiltrate French and Belgian nuclear power plants, this is real and this has been reported by the mainstream medias.

Just like it is real that Islamism is widespread and common place all around the Muslim world and Europe. The UOIF in France, French branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, represents 40% of French Mosques (out of 2500). They are islamists aiming to islamize France.

And beyond Islamism, extremism is also common: in the past six months, 20 Mosques have been closed because of ties with terrorism in France and despite a pro-Muslim government. And mainstream medias report a hundred of salafist prayer rooms in France.

 

[JANFU]

As long as you two are going to comment without bothering to research anything about the story I linked, I'll bypass your insults and instead educate you.

Well we do have a handle on you, your research and abilities.
From what I have seen of some members here, they only teach hate.

 

[truthatallcost]

Well we do have a handle on you, your research and abilities.
From what I have seen of some members here, they only teach hate.

Is it wrong to hate those that want to destroy the US and Europe? Not to my way of thinking.

 

[JANFU]

Is it wrong to hate those that want to destroy the US and Europe? Not to my way of thinking.

I am well aware of "your kind of thinking". I have encountered it all my life.

 

[truthatallcost]

I am well aware of "your kind of thinking". I have encountered it all my life.

That's superb.

Is it wrong to hate people who want to destroy the US and Europe?

 

[JANFU]

That's superb.

Is it wrong to hate people who want to destroy the US and Europe?

Do you not apply that to all Muslims?

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Likely

Meaning till we have evidence, you are guessing.

~ Jilani himself, " Mr Jilani, who is based in Walthamstow, east London, said in the offending programme: “The matter of insulting the prophet does not fall in the category of terrorism.
“Those who cannot kill such men have no faith.3) Where are the instances where this is happening? Muslim television channel fined after preacher of hate incited murder live on air - Telegraph

Doesn't sit outside free speech law in the UK. Ofcom however have their own rules and this is why they fined the broadcaster, not the speaker.

~ "Choudary, who has openly advocated Sharia law – has been linked to 15 terror plots since 2000 and 500 British jihadis who fled the UK to join IS (Daesh) in Iraq and Syria."

That is a specific law Choudhary broke and was rightly jailed for it - but only after our secret services said it was OK and that they had no further use for him.

~ I believe they're getting smarter, going underground, and will continue doing so in the future. We've all seen the videos of Choudary openly calling for Sharia, or Muslims denouncing gays or white British women as "sluts" ~

Like I said above, some of these preachers are kept out by our own security services who need them out so they can follow trails to other plots and criminals.

~ The EU rules are actually a lot more authoritarian than the US ones, yet they have never been used against Muslims afaik.

Please point out these rules?

~ Now you dodged the question

It was a ridiculous question.

~ so let me answer for you: following *your* logic the Koran should be outlawed since it directly calls to murder.

We haven't banned Mein Kampf either or the Old Testament which also call for brutal actions. No specific individuals are named so it would be hard to ban such books.

~ You are deliberately distorting my statements. Muslims *are* trying to infiltrate French and Belgian nuclear power plants ~

Did you or did you not make a claim about things that hadn't actually happened yet?

 

[Auvergnat]

Please point out these rules?

Here they are.

It was a ridiculous question.

Is it really ridiculous to ask whether a text that calls to murder atheists, apostates and blapshemers is concerned by hate speech laws?

We haven't banned Mein Kampf either or the Old Testament which also call for brutal actions. No specific individuals are named so it would be hard to ban such books.

The Koran is a lot more violent than Mein Kampf. Actually I am pretty sure that Mein Kampf never directly calls to kill anyone, although it repeatedly frames a conflict against Jews. As for the Old testament, I am not sure, but I guess that it is indeed also concerned, just like the Koran.

Legally speaking, I do not see how one can argue the Koran is not a hate speech text. At best you can summon constitutional principles regarding freedom of opinion to claim this is a constitutionally protected hate speech. But then I do not see why Mein Kampf cannot enjoy the same protection since religious opinions do not legally enjoy a higher constitutional position than political ones.

Did you or did you not make a claim about things that hadn't actually happened yet?

Jihadists have been fired from French and Belgian nuclear plants they had infiltrated. And they have targeted employees and managers of nuclear plants.

 

[truthatallcost]

Do you not apply that to all Muslims?

63% of Muslims living in the U.S. were born outside of the US, and came here as immigrants.

26% of Muslims living in the U.S. are immigrants from the Mideast and Africa.

They're coming from countries that overwhelming support Sharia law.

Percentage of the population that supports Sharia law in:
Iraq- 91%
Palestinian territories - 89%
Morocco- 83%
Egypt-74%
Jordan- 71%
Tunisia-56%
Niger- 86%
Djibouti-82%
DR Congo-72%
Nigeria- 71%
Uganda - 66%
Ethiopia-65%
Mozambique -65%
Kenya -64%


Section 1: A Demographic Portrait of Muslim Americans | Pew Research Center
Muslims and Islam: Key findings in the U.S. and around the world | Pew Research Center

Given the fact that Sharia Law is so popular in Muslim countries, does it make sense to allow people who hold diabolically anti-American beliefs to migrate here?

This is where you point out some obscure sect of Christians that live in the Ozarks and believe that America is evil.

 

[JANFU]

63% of Muslims living in the U.S. were born outside of the US, and came here as immigrants.

26% of Muslims living in the U.S. are immigrants from the Mideast and Africa.

They're coming from countries that overwhelming support Sharia law.

Percentage of the population that supports Sharia law in:
Iraq- 91%
Palestinian territories - 89%
Morocco- 83%
Egypt-74%
Jordan- 71%
Tunisia-56%
Niger- 86%
Djibouti-82%
DR Congo-72%
Nigeria- 71%
Uganda - 66%
Ethiopia-65%
Mozambique -65%
Kenya -64%


Section 1: A Demographic Portrait of Muslim Americans | Pew Research Center
Muslims and Islam: Key findings in the U.S. and around the world | Pew Research Center

Given the fact that Sharia Law is so popular in Muslim countries, does it make sense to allow people who hold diabolically anti-American beliefs to migrate here?

This is where you point out some obscure sect of Christians that live in the Ozarks and believe that America is evil.

Nope- Was thinking of Florida.
Unless you are genetically 100 % indigenous people, you immigrated to the US.

 

[Auvergnat]

Nope- Was thinking of Florida.
Unless you are genetically 100 % indigenous people, you immigrated to the US.

I am sure Native Americans regretted not having expelled those foreigners who stole their lands and imposed their religion, laws and customs.

 

[JANFU]

I am sure Native Americans regretted not having expelled those foreigners who stole their lands and imposed their religion, laws and customs.

 

[truthatallcost]

Nope- Was thinking of Florida.
Unless you are genetically 100 % indigenous people, you immigrated to the US.

No answer Janfu?

Why do we allow people to migrate here from areas of the world that don't believe in our laws, customs, freedoms, etc?
They come here for money, not to become assimilated into American society.
---------------------------------
Since you're commenting on a story from England, should the 100% indigenous peoples of England tolerate foreigners coming to their country and causing strife?

Most Muslims in England originate from Pakistan, Bangladesh, or Afghanistan.

The percentage of people in Afghanistan and Pakistan who support Sharia are:
Afghanistan - 99% (wtf, I thought we were winning 'hearts and minds'??)
Pakistan - 84%
Bangladesh - 82%

 

[truthatallcost]

Sappy feel-good songs sell Janfu. Mayer got in trouble for making racist comments. Look it up.

 

[JANFU]

Sappy feel-good songs sell Janfu. Mayer got in trouble for making racist comments. Look it up.

And he publicly apologized, on stage.

 

[Auvergnat]

*video that insinuates it would change with the new generation*

Sorry to break your daydreaming but in France (and probably elsewhere in Europe), the 18-24 are a lot more rightist than their elders. They vote more for the far-right (34% against 30% on recent elections), and they are more antagonist to Islam (30% against 27%). Despite the fact that they have a lot more Muslims among them! So I would not be surprised if half of young white French people voted FN and were antagonist to Islam.

All in all, the youth appears a lot more ethnically divided and Islamophobe than previous generations. Given that people become more rightist as they age and that Islam is radicalizing and growing, I assume this trend will continue to strengthen in the upcoming decades. It smells like the making of an ethnic conflict.

 

[JANFU]

Sorry to break your daydreaming but in France (and probably elsewhere in Europe), the 18-24 are a lot more rightist than their elders. They vote more for the far-right (34% against 30% on recent elections), and they are more antagonist to Islam (30% against 27%). Despite the fact that they have a lot more Muslims among them! So I would not be surprised if half of young white French people voted FN and were antagonist to Islam.

All in all, the youth appears a lot more ethnically divided and Islamophobe than previous generations. Given that people become more rightist as they age and that Islam is radicalizing and growing, I assume this trend will continue to strengthen in the upcoming decades. It smells like the making of an ethnic conflict.

Europe has a long history of Fascism.

 

[Auvergnat]

Europe has a long history of Fascism.

No, it has known only one occurrence of fascism. And on the other hand we never experienced racial segregation, forced sterilization of autistic people, KKK, McCartyism and others. Drop this misplaced morale superiority of yours; we each have our own monsters but they are irrelevant this time.

Today our far-right is actually moderate, more moderate than Trump, and not troublesome at all. The only real threat is Islam, which is rising all around the world as a far-right totalitarianism since a few decades (read what academics say about the modern Islamic world, investigate the Muslim Brotherhood). They are attempting to islamize societies, to enforce 7th century religious laws, wasting one country after the other. Muslim values around the world, Intolerance of European Muslims

 

[joG]

Sorry to break your daydreaming but in France (and probably elsewhere in Europe), the 18-24 are a lot more rightist than their elders. They vote more for the far-right (34% against 30% on recent elections), and they are more antagonist to Islam (30% against 27%). Despite the fact that they have a lot more Muslims among them! So I would not be surprised if half of young white French people voted FN and were antagonist to Islam.

All in all, the youth appears a lot more ethnically divided and Islamophobe than previous generations. Given that people become more rightist as they age and that Islam is radicalizing and growing, I assume this trend will continue to strengthen in the upcoming decades. It smells like the making of an ethnic conflict.

The young generation will also get more agitated and angry as the consequences of the misconceived social democracies increasingly smother them. As it stands the deductions from earnings for public health insurance and public pensions will be a little shy of 45 percent of the paycheck excluding the pensions for politicians and public servants, which will come out of general taxes. In Germany the fight over the cost distribution has already begun. But however it is structured the pressures will build and the cost can only come from the working part of the population.

 

[truthatallcost]

No, it has known only one occurrence of fascism. And on the other hand we never experienced racial segregation, forced sterilization of autistic people, KKK, McCartyism and others. Drop this misplaced morale superiority of yours; we each have our own monsters but they are irrelevant this time.

Today our far-right is actually moderate, more moderate than Trump, and not troublesome at all. The only real threat is Islam, which is rising all around the world as a far-right totalitarianism since a few decades (read what academics say about the modern Islamic world, investigate the Muslim Brotherhood). They are attempting to islamize societies, to enforce 7th century religious laws, wasting one country after the other. Muslim values around the world, Intolerance of European Muslims

He's from Canada. The Islamization of your country, and the potential for terror attacks in my country, doesn't effect him in the least.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Here they are.

Ah, I don't see them being fit for the purpose of chasing muslims who make general controversial comments. In the UK, the test tends to be that

A person who uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, abusive or insulting, is guilty of an offence if—
(a) they intends thereby to stir up racial hatred, or
(b) having regard to all the circumstances racial hatred is likely to be stirred up thereby.

Jilani was making general statements with regard to his own flock. If he was speaking of specific targeted action against specific others to incite harm he would have been tried and jailed.

Is it really ridiculous to ask whether a text that calls to murder atheists, apostates and blapshemers is concerned by hate speech laws?

The test is whether those texts do actually inspire muslims to violence or not. There are some - no argument there, some of the 4 million muslims in the UK who are but could you really argue or prove that 4 million muslims in the UK are planning to murder apostates, atheists and blasphemers?

~ Legally speaking, I do not see how one can argue the Koran is not a hate speech text

Like I said, when it is proven that it really does incite violence then it will be banned.

Jihadists have been fired from French and Belgian nuclear plants they had infiltrated. And they have targeted employees and managers of nuclear plants.

Ah, that still (however) doesn't prove they have actually destroyed any nuclear stations yet. :2wave:

 

[Auvergnat]

Ah, I don't see them being fit for the purpose of chasing muslims who make general controversial comments. (...) Jilani was making general statements with regard to his own flock. If he was speaking of specific targeted action against specific others to incite harm he would have been tried and jailed.

Jilani said: "It is your duty, the duty of those who recite the holy verse, to kill those who insult Prophet Mohammed." It is direct and explicit. He simply asked for a mass slaughter instead of providing a few names.

Jilani and the Koran explicitly, directly and unambiguously call to murder people like me since I am an atheist and blasphemer.

The test is whether those texts do actually inspire muslims to violence or not.

No, it should be whether those words aim to causing violence. They do, this is their goal.

Ah, that still (however) doesn't prove they have actually destroyed any nuclear stations yet. :2wave:

I never said they succeeded, I said they are trying because they are. You repeatedly lie about me.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

~ Jilani and the Koran explicitly, directly and unambiguously call to murder people like me since I am an atheist and blasphemer.

Like you? From what I read he was addressing the situation in Pakistan where ex muslims had left the faith. Personally as an atheist I don't feel his words applied to me but again - he made no specific threat to identified peoples. That remains the test in the UK.

Let me try and explain it more clearly - "let's go kill Abdul at number 72 as he is an apostate" is incitement to imminent violence.

What he said did not fit that description.

~No, it should be whether those words aim to causing violence. They do, this is their goal.

See above

~I never said they succeeded, I said they are trying because they are. You repeatedly lie about me.

Well, if we look at your original post I think we will have very different opinions on what you said.

 

[Auvergnat]

Like you? From what I read he was addressing the situation in Pakistan where ex muslims had left the faith.

Do you think he believes that Muslims should ignore the Koran outside of Pakistan? Anyway the UK law certainly does not care whether those who threaten are British or Pakistani.

he made no specific threat to identified peoples. That remains the test in the UK.

So if I call to kill all Muslims, I cannot be sentenced because they are not identified? I doubt so. And don't try claiming that "Muslims" is more identified than "blasphemers" or "atheists".

That being said, once again, the EU rules constrains the UK to sanction all xenophobe speech, regardless of threats or other considerations. Maybe the UK violates the EU rules though, but I doubt you understand the legal questions you are talking about.

Well, if we look at your original post I think we will have very different opinions on what you said.

Go and read it again. If I remember correctly you were misled by a past future tense, or the use of a past tense in a hypothetical future context.

 

[Tigerace117]

No, it has known only one occurrence of fascism. And on the other hand we never experienced racial segregation, forced sterilization of autistic people, KKK, McCartyism and others. Drop this misplaced morale superiority of yours; we each have our own monsters but they are irrelevant this time.

Today our far-right is actually moderate, more moderate than Trump, and not troublesome at all. The only real threat is Islam, which is rising all around the world as a far-right totalitarianism since a few decades (read what academics say about the modern Islamic world, investigate the Muslim Brotherhood). They are attempting to islamize societies, to enforce 7th century religious laws, wasting one country after the other. Muslim values around the world, Intolerance of European Muslims

Only one?

I guess you don't count the Estado Novo, Francoist Spain, Vichy France, Mussolini's "Empire", Iron Guard Romania, Arrow Cross Hungary, the Usatashe(or however you want to spell it.....).....