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Musharraf declares emergency in Pakistan

I don't support the Bhutto's either and supported their overthrow, but I can not support any tyrant, even if it is in our short term national interests to do so, because it sure as hell isn't in our long term interests as the Islamists are in large part the result of these tyrannical governments in the first place in that the only place in these countries where these people can dissent is in the radical mosques, the masses must be afforded the opportunity to enact social and political change through peaceful means if they are not afforded this outlet they will as it has been shown resort to violence and radical ideologies.

Oh, so you support the creation of a new Iran without a fight? Only this is a far more dangerous nation than Iran because it HAS NUKES.

Here's something from Walid Phares originally written a few weeks ago.

Islamism and the U.S. Allies in the "War on Terror"

In Pakistan, the recent news stories about the attacks on Benazir Bhutto and the struggles of the Pakistani government against various Jihadist groups masks a more fundamental challenge. Political Islamism is part of the identity and the law in Pakistan. News reports have frequently described the beatings, torture, and killing of Christians due to Pakistan's Islamist "blasphemy" law. In Pakistan, Osama Bin Laden is more popular than President Musharraf. This is the same Pakistan that supported Afghanistan's Taliban prior to the 9/11 attacks. It is the same Pakistan where even Benazir Bhutto's 1980's and mid-1990's governments supported the Taliban. It is the same Pakistan where President Musharraf has called for the Taliban to reform into becoming a mainstream political organization. It is the same Pakistan where Taliban commanders are moving out of the hills and into the suburbs of Islamabad and Peshawar.

But America's concern is with Pakistan fighting "terrorists". How successful is such a tactic going to be when a meaningful portion of Pakistan supports political Islamism? How meaningful will the results of Pakistan's "war on terror" be when we have no policy on the growth of Islamism in that nation? If Pakistanis have to choose between Islamism and an alliance with the United States, what is their decision likely to be?

Counterterrorism Blog: Jihad, Islamism, and the Challenge of Anti-Freedom Ideologies
 
Yep because as we all know the Saddam situation that the U.S. SUPPORTED FOR A LONG TIME turned out so well. But hey you ****ing conservatives don't care if we make another Saddam like we did before. Next time this dude gets hung, maybe we should do the same to all that supported him.

If I were making posts like yours I'd be ashamed.

Boy, I strongly suggest you start reading and stop making yourself look like an idiot.

:mrgreen: :cool:

Unless you are a Jihad supporter. In that case just keep doing what you're doing. :yes:
 
Press Trust Of India
Islamabad, November 03, 2007
First Published: 13:36 IST(3/11/2007)
Last Updated: 14:18 IST(3/11/2007)

Pak facing threat of extremist takeover: Bhutto

Warning that Pakistan is facing an "increasing threat of an extremist takeover," former Pakistan premier Benazir Bhutto has said the deadly suicide attack on her homecoming procession may have been the handiwork of Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden's son Hamza.


Bhutto, who survived the terror attack in Karachi on October 18 that killed nearly 140 people and injured hundreds more, said the restoration of democracy is a must to save Pakistan.

The 54-year-old two-time Prime Minister said she believed the attack might have been the handiwork of Hamza Bin Laden, the son of Osama Bin Laden, and repeated her demand that the Pakistan government should seek assistance from foreign countries in probing the incident.

"Elements in the Pakistan administration may have been complicit in the attack and Scotland Yard and FBI specialists should be brought in to help the police investigation," she told ARY news channel in Dubai, where she is currently visiting her family.

Bhutto, who left Pakistan for Dubai just two weeks after returning from eight years in self-exile, said she did not have any evidence to suggest the involvement of President Pervez Musharraf in the assassination attempt on her.

However, key members of the political apparatus "loathe" her Pakistan People's Party (PPP) for its vision of a federal democratic state, she said.

Bhutto had earlier written a letter to Musharraf in which she claimed certain senior officials posed a threat to her life.

Though she has not publicly named these persons, media reports claimed they included Punjab Chief Minister Chaudhry Pervaiz Elahi and Intelligence Bureau chief Ijaz Shah.

She said the attack had made her "more determined to continue" her fight for the restoration of democracy as she warned that Pakistan was facing an "increasing threat of an extremist takeover."

The former Premier also indicated that she might not hold further negotiations with Musharraf if he imposes emergency in the country. She said she would oppose Musharraf if he continues to use his position as Army Chief and cautioned that this might "demoralise the armed forces".

Bhutto has said that she has gone to Dubai to meet her family and ailing mother, but her sudden departure has sparked speculation that she fears that emergency or martial law might be imposed in Pakistan in view of the prevailing political uncertainty and worsening law and order situation.

Reports have also suggested that Bhutto may not return till the Supreme Court decides on petitions challenging Musharraf's re-election in uniform in the October six presidential poll. A verdict is expected next week.

HindustanTimes-Print
 
Yeah....shutting them down just before they expose him for the dictator that he is.



Ummm where are your sources that he's only rounding up those who demand one vote one man? From what I've seen he's shut down the free press in his country and rounded up all opposition. Classic dictator move.

He's doing what Abraham Lincoln might have done to save his country from extremists.
 
Oh, so you support the creation of a new Iran without a fight? Only this is a far more dangerous nation than Iran because it HAS NUKES.

I support Democratization as the only real solution to the Islamist threat and if I said I support dictatorships because it is a temporary solution which in reality only exponentially increases the overall problem I would not be a man of convictions I would be a hypocrite! The Islamists will not come to power through the Democratic system, I support strong arm tactics to defeat Islamists, but what I can not support and will never condone is the overthrow of a Democratic republic by any tyrant whether he be Islamist or secular. I think you need a reminder of what this war on terror is all about:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZu2bIe6O80[/youtube]
 
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Spoken like a true Jihadist.


It may be a jihad for you to do what you do, but call my actions a crusade to keep you from spreading lies.

If Musharraf loses control then we'd have extremists in control of nukes.

If you think that's good you are insane and/or a Jihadist supporter.

Get it through your head that we haven't had to fight to enjoy moderation in Pakistan. And if Musharraf's actions work successfully we won't have to fight.

That is what you seem to want...the extremists to gain control whether there is a fight or not. You want to establish Shariah rule.
Finished with your broken record sound bites on jihad?
Our intervention in the domestic issues of middle eastern countries has been the very source of hatred towards the west and towards us in particular. We installed saddam we installed the shia and we even helped to install the taliban; now we installed musharraf and like any true dictator he doesn't disappoint. Musharraf has not succeeded in anything but gather further hatred towards US.
The world is not black and white like how you ignorantly portray it today, the enemy of my enemy is NOT my friend and is often the stray dog that turns around and bites you. One Saddam is enough.
 
I support Democratization as the only real solution to the Islamist threat and if I said I support dictatorships because it is a temporary solution which in reality only exponentially increases the overall problem I would not be a man of convictions I would be a hypocrite! The Islamists will not come to power through the Democratic system, I support strong arm tactics to defeat Islamists, but what I can not support and will never condone is the overthrow of a Democratic republic by any tyrant whether he be Islamist or secular. I think you need a reminder of what this war on terror is all about:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZ3Ad7812MI[/youtube]

I will watch your video and ask you to consider the words of Samuel Huntington:

Hypocrisy, double standards, and "but nots" are the price of universalist pretensions. Democracy is promoted but not if it brings Islamic fundamentalists to power; nonproliferation is preached for Iran and Iraq but not for Israel; free trade is the elixir of economic growth but not for agriculture; human rights are an issue for China but not with Saudi Arabia; aggression against oil-owning Kuwaitis is massively repulsed but not against non-oil-owning Bosnians. Double standards in practice are the unavoidable price of universal standards of principle. (The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order, p. 184)

If you intend to be a man of convictions you should know there will be times when you will be FORCED to choose between principle and hypocrisy.

One of the alternatives is to have no principles at all.
 
I will watch your video and ask you to consider the words of Samuel Huntington:



If you intend to be a man of convictions you should know there will be times when you will be FORCED to choose between principle and hypocrisy.

One of the alternatives is to have no principles at all.

Once again I do not support a Democratic system which would allow Islamists to come to power, you can't have people who demand one man, one vote, but only once to obtain control of the Democratic system, only those who support the Democratic system itself should be allowed to obtain power, but this move on the part of Musharaf to dissolve the independent judiciary is proof to me that he does not support the Democratic system and is not interested in preserving the Democratic system against Islamists but rather he is only concerned with preserving his own power, I supported his coup, I supported his strong armed tactics, but this is something that I can not condone and can not and will not support!
 
Freedom and democracy is all well and good, but lest we forget, Pakistan is a nuclear power with a large number of very radical islamists running around. We are far better off with a dictator running it then the alternative.

We do not want an Islamic Revolution in Pakistan. I mean honestly, does anyone believe that we should not be backing Musharraf? What is the alternative?
Pakistan IS better with Musharraf for US because we know who he is and we know where he stands - the problem is can Musharraf maintain control using such iron fist tactics? Or would this lead to an uprising that topples him and his government truly creating a void that is then filled in by some other fanatics? The people whom are challenging him are not religious wack jobs, they're academics and various individuals seeking a nation where no one is above the law - or rather seeking legitimate rule. Our support of a dictator whom disregards their own laws is a huge blow to our efforts there and completely undermines us as "friends" of the people. That's how the problem started out, our support of dictators or what else is the alternative? Communist rule?
It's unlikly that Pakistan would be over-run by religious fundamentals for two HUGE reasons #1 India; #2 China. India's national stability would be far far more threatened than we ever would with a religiously fanatic NUCLEAR pakistan. China wants social stability and a fanatic NUCLEAR pakistan would be a huge blow for China in particular in the coming 2 years.
On a side note, it doesn't seem that this courtship with Musharraf has proved fruitful as Musharraf seems a bit wishy washy himself in his inability to deal with the fanatics of his own country even though he is a dictator.
 
but I find it quite hypocritical that you're opposed to the overthrow of Saddam but not opposed to the overthrow of Musharaf, I guess a hate for America has to be a pre-requisite for which tyrants the left will support.

So the U.S. getting involved in Overthrowing someone does what? Maybe it didn't occur to you but the involvement of the U.S. in support of overthrowing governments has done nothing but come back and bite us in the ***.
 
So the U.S. getting involved in Overthrowing someone does what? Maybe it didn't occur to you but the involvement of the U.S. in support of overthrowing governments has done nothing but come back and bite us in the ***.

Chile??? Germany? Japan? Italy? Seems that regime change worked out pretty well for us and for the entire world for that matter.
 
Another thing to remember is that this is the second time martial law has been declared in 8 years.

Conflicting sources say it's been declared three times, another says 6 times since Pakistan achieved independence in 1947.

Here's the more conservative accounting.

Martial law has been declared in Pakistan Thrice. In the first instance President Iskander Mirza abrogated the Constitution in 1958 and declared Martial Law over the country. The second instance was when General Yahya Khan declared martial law in March, 1969 after Mirza's successor, General Ayub Khan handed over power to him. The third instance was when General Pervez Musharraf declared Martial Law because of mounting militant attacks and "interference by members of the judiciary". The move was widely perceived as Musharraf's desperate attempt to save his position as the President of Pakistan. The Chief Justice of Pakistan, Iftikhar Chaudhry, was immediately replaced owing to his anti-Musharraf stance. See 2007 Pakistani state of emergency for more information.

After several tumultuous years, which witnessed the secession of East Pakistan, politician Zulfikar Ali Bhutto took over in 1971 as the first civilian martial law administrator in recent history, imposing selective martial law in areas hostile to his rule, such as the country's largest province, Balochistan. Following widespread civil disorder, General Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq overthrew Bhutto and imposed martial law in its totality on July 5, 1977 in a bloodless coup d'etat. Unstable areas were brought under control through indirect military action, such as Balochistan under Martial Law Governor, General Rahimuddin Khan. Civilian government resumed in 1988 following General Zia's death in an aircraft crash.

On October 12, 1999, the government of Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif was dissolved, and the Army took control once more. But no Martial Law was imposed. General Pervez Musharraf took the title of Chief Executive until the President Rafiq Tarar resigned and General Musharraf became President. Elections were held in October 2002 and Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali became Prime Minister. Jamili premiership was followed by Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain and Shaukat Aziz. While the government was supposed to be run by the elected Prime Minister, there was a common understanding that important decisions were made by the President General Parvez Musharraf.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law#Pakistan

I don't think anyone foresees this being permanent. It never has been before and the President says it won't be in this instance, either.

But we must be aware that many snakes are slithering into positions where they might best strike if given a chance.

One of those snakes is Bhutto.
 
Another thing to remember is that this is the second time martial law has been declared in 8 years.

Conflicting sources say it's been declared three times, another says 6 times since Pakistan achieved independence in 1947.

Here's the more conservative accounting.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law#Pakistan

I don't think anyone foresees this being permanent. It never has been before and the President says it won't be in this instance, either.

And if that were the case he wouldn't have dissolved the Supreme Court!
 
Chile??? Germany? Japan? Italy? Seems that regime change worked out pretty well for us and for the entire world for that matter.

Yup!

And the non-interventionists like to believe (or never stop to think) that doing nothing has it's downside as well.

It's just like our individual experiences.

We can engage life, pursuing goals and enjoying God's gift of life and and while achieving our potential making mistakes along the way or we can be wall flowers and hermits, doing nothing, interacting with no one and making the mistake of wasting away one's life.

Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.
 
And if that were the case he wouldn't have dissolved the Supreme Court!

If you try to look at them as a direct parallel to our government it doesn't equate. In Pakistan the Justices conspire and plot against the President.

Did you read the article yet?
 
If you try to look at them as a direct parallel to our government it doesn't equate. In Pakistan the Justices conspire and plot against the President.

Did you read the article yet?

The judiciary has actually been rather supporting of the coup and against Bhutto, that's why it's proof that this is a power grab not a true concern for the preservation of the Democratic system.
 
You are one of the smarter posters here.

Jonathan Foreman on Pakistan on National Review Online

Let me know what you think after reading this.

I'm sorry, bkhd, but an opinion paper like the NRO is hardly a respectable news source. They're a partisan paper with a clear political bias and objective. Next time post something from AP or Reuters, a legitimate foreign news source.
 
A) He already re-wrote the Constitution.

B) The law allowing for the court packing even violates the Constitution that he rewrote
Well, it looks pretty fishy, but the crux of that argument is that a legal ruling would be necessary to clarify whether it is in fact unconstitutional. All the same, it does look like the checks and balances in that country aren't properly functioning. He was able to pack the courts, so I wouldn't expect an unfriendly ruling on this matter.

Nice source btw. I overall agree with the concerns of HRW and I don't like the direction that Chavez is going.

But check out another quote from their site:
"Mr. Chairman, let me close by adding one additional country to the mix here, and that is Pakistan. I believe that Pakistan represents the most egregious, and harmful, example of a human rights double standard in American foreign policy today. Pakistan appears to have little place in President Bush's "freedom agenda." On the contrary, President Bush has repeatedly come to the defense of his friend President Musharraf against anyone who criticizes his continued dictatorial rule over Pakistan.
...
These statements appear to align the United States behind one man against virtually every decent segment of Pakistani society – against the very people in that country who are most likely to be America's friends and to support a moderate, modern course for Pakistan. This kind of approach will reinforce all of General Musharraf’s bad tendencies – not just his authoritarian crackdown, but his policy of marginalizing moderate, secular forces in the country, his political reliance on Islamists, and his consequent refusal to prevent Taliban elements from killing American troops, Afghan civilians, and opponents in Pakistan’s tribal areas. It is a classic case of muting human rights concerns to protect a security relationship. But it is in fact just as contrary to U.S. security interests as it is to America's commitment to democracy. And it is killing America’s image with the next generation of, hopefully, democratic Pakistani leaders.

We desperately need, in the coming days, clear, public statements from both the administration and the Congress urging full respect for the rule of law and judicial independence in Pakistan, the release of political detainees, media freedom, and a swift return to civilian, democratic rule. This shouldn’t be about whether the United States supports or opposes a particular leader – but it needs to be, clearly and unequivocally, about U.S. support for the institutions of democracy and law."

That statement was in June. Obviously, Musharaff has felt little pressure from the US, to respect the rule of law, and he still doesn't. Condi just made it clear that our aid will for the most part remain unhindered.

Overall I'm glad that you do have a line that Musharaff can cross and you admit to it when he does. I know you might not care for my endorsements, but I just thought I'd point that out.

I also have enjoyed your conversation with bhkad, even though I don't agree with you in many ways. But if you are going to promote US exceptionalism than the US had better well be exceptional. To me, that means more than simply promoting US interests.
 
I'm sorry, bkhd, but an opinion paper like the NRO is hardly a respectable news source. They're a partisan paper with a clear political bias and objective. Next time post something from AP or Reuters, a legitimate foreign news source.

No, I think not. When freedom, moderation, tolerance, liberty, rule of law AND Democracy become the objective and neutral position adopted by the AP and Reuters that is when I will rely SOLELY on their news accounts to try to explain an issue as complex as this.

If I used only AP and Reuters here for this event it would only make it easier for you or those of your ilk to build upon that information base to skew and spin the info in favor of Jihad.
 
If I used only AP and Reuters here for this event it would only make it easier for you or those of your ilk to build upon that information base to skew and spin the info in favor of Jihad.

Yeah the facts of the matter might get iin the way of your agitprop.
 
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