MMT and Taxes

[jaeger19]

Again, you are misrepresenting what I said. Of course there are poor (such as the disabled) who have no way out and we should treat them much better than we do now. And, I never said that all of the poor do not work hard. I realize that working at Walmart and McDonalds is much harder work than most of the rich do (pretty much been there, done that myself). But, there are many of the poor who are lazy. I.[/QUOTE

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No offense.. but your post just showed your intellectual disconnect here.

First:

Eventually this factory closed down long after I left.

Bingo.. right there is a fact.. manufacturing jobs have gone down in this country.. and those good jobs for uneducated workers.. went down. I don't believe that you are looking at todays conditions.. but are looking back upon a time when there was more social mobility.. when you were a kid.

Any person who works at McDonalds can work their way up to shift supervisor, assistant manager, and beyond - everyone who has the desire

Wrong. honestly.. are you really going to tell me that EVERYONE working in the MCDONALDS can become shift managers so on and so forth? That's simply not possible.. There are simply NOT ENOUGH POSITIONS in Mcdonalds to do that. Probably for every 10 employees.. there is one shift manager.. for every 25 employees an assistant manager and for every 50 employees a overall manager. Not everyone in that MCDONALDS can be a manager. Its simply a fact.

I have seen many, many of these poor get huge tax refunds every year due to the EIC and they don't use the money for necessities or living expenses at all - they just piss the thousands of dollars away on stupid stuff.

That can be said about a lot of rich people I know as well.

Most of those poor elderly you refer to are people that squandered opportunities and money their whole lives

Actually no.. many of them are people that were middle class and now have become poor because they have outlived their income.

You get a windfall of a few hundred or a few thousand dollars and you have to find a way to spend it, often times pissing the money away into nothingness.

Yep.. sometimes happens. However, studies show that in poor people.. they have an added difficulty in saving those windfalls.. and that's because of the social structure of being poor. People that are poor create their own survival and safety nets within their "community". When Joe has a few hundred bucks.. he could save it for college... the problem is that his friend Steve needs some help with his car and so he helps his friend Steve out with that money.. because when Steve was doing okay.. and Joe lost his job Steve helped out joe. (which took money out of Steves pocket).

The poor often have a social network that helps them survive when times are lean... and to get ahead.. they have to forego being a part of that social system.. which sounds easy... but if you start keeping that money to yourself.. and stop helping out when you can.. then if you suddenly have a problem.. then you have lost that safety net.

Now you seem to be in a business where probably you deal more with middle class'rs than the very poor so, it's possible you are relying more on information you receive than actual experience but I have worked with those very poor for decades.

I own several businesses... one is in agriculture.. I have worked alongside the poor for decades. Heck.. I started out as poor.

I would bet that you are significantly older than me.. and your impressions are not based on current conditions.. but based on a biased view of an earlier economic time.

 

[Moderate Right]

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Wrong. honestly.. are you really going to tell me that EVERYONE working in the MCDONALDS can become shift managers so on and so forth? That's simply not possible.. There are simply NOT ENOUGH POSITIONS in Mcdonalds to do that. Probably for every 10 employees.. there is one shift manager.. for every 25 employees an assistant manager and for every 50 employees a overall manager. Not everyone in that MCDONALDS can be a manager. Its simply a fact.

I'm saying that over time, everyone who wants to become a shift leader can. You don't have to be rocket scientist. First, of course there aren't enough shift leader positions at any one time for people to get promoted to. But, over the course of several years, added to the fact that there are several McDonalds somewhat close by to everyone, anyone who wants to move up, can. If you never have any desire or ambition to be anything more than an Indian (sorry for the political incorrectness there) then you have chosen your lot in life, to always be poor.

Yep.. sometimes happens. However, studies show that in poor people.. they have an added difficulty in saving those windfalls.. and that's because of the social structure of being poor. People that are poor create their own survival and safety nets within their "community". When Joe has a few hundred bucks.. he could save it for college... the problem is that his friend Steve needs some help with his car and so he helps his friend Steve out with that money.. because when Steve was doing okay.. and Joe lost his job Steve helped out joe. (which took money out of Steves pocket).

This goes toward my point that there should be mandatory education ins schools regarding budgeting and all types of finances. Hell, my first wife was smart and went on to become a registered nurse graduating with a 4.0 average but, you know how she balanced her checkbook before she met me? Actually she had no idea so a couple of times per year she closed down her bank account and started another one with a new bank. Sad, but true.


I would bet that you are significantly older than me.. and your impressions are not based on current conditions.. but based on a biased view of an earlier economic time.

I'm 60 and I have accumulated many years of knowledge regarding the poor and it continues through today

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[jaeger19]

I'm saying that over time, everyone who wants to become a shift leader can. You don't have to be rocket scientist. First, of course there aren't enough shift leader positions at any one time for people to get promoted to. But, over the course of several years, added to the fact that there are several McDonalds somewhat close by to everyone, anyone who wants to move up, can. If you never have any desire or ambition to be anything more than an Indian (sorry for the political incorrectness there) then you have chosen your lot in life, to always be poor.

And again.. that's really false. "over time"? Okay.. lets say you have 10 employees for every shift manager. The average time for a shift manager to stay in their position is 3 years (which could be higher and likely is). that means that the 10th employee? Waits 30 years to get to be shift manager!

You say.."well but there are other Mcdonalds nearby... yes.. and those Mcdonalds have their own employees as well.

This goes toward my point that there should be mandatory education ins schools regarding budgeting and all types of finances. Hell, my first wife was smart and went on to become a registered nurse graduating with a 4.0 average but, you know how she balanced her checkbook before she met me? Actually she had no idea so a couple of times per year she closed down her bank account and started another one with a new bank. Sad, but true.

Well.. Of that we agree. In fact.. you don't even need a special math class. You could fold the practical math into existing math classes.
The problem with this though is that it depends on the bent of the class. How important is it really that your wife balance her checkbook? She could simply look on the computer and reference that with what she bought. now she can get a spreadsheet printed off for her.

What people need to understand is things like mortgage finance, buying a car, paying for college and how loans work and the different types of loans. Whats necessary to start a business etc. The problem is that there is no clear consensus of what should be taught.

You and I have a more conservative bent. You and I would probably disagree with using your house as collateral to start your first business (maybe you wouldn't but I would guess not). but I would bet there would be pundits that would want kids to learn how they could leverage a home equity loan into starting a new business. Which works if you have a high income and are already wealthy and have a safety net. Not so much if you are much poorer.

I'm 60 and I have accumulated many years of knowledge regarding the poor and it continues through today

You are 60 and see the world through a backward lens of when you were younger. You don't see the world for how it is.

For example.. not everyone can be shift manager.. there is not enough turn over that "given enough time" those 10 employees are going to be able to wait out 30 years to be shift manager.

 

[Neomalthusian]

And again.. that's really false. "over time"? Okay.. lets say you have 10 employees for every shift manager. The average time for a shift manager to stay in their position is 3 years (which could be higher and likely is). that means that the 10th employee? Waits 30 years to get to be shift manager!

For example.. not everyone can be shift manager.. there is not enough turn over that "given enough time" those 10 employees are going to be able to wait out 30 years to be shift manager.

Assuming a purely seniority-based promotion policy and absolutely zero turnover. Not realistic.

Well.. Of that we agree. In fact.. you don't even need a special math class. You could fold the practical math into existing math classes.

It's not even a math issue for most, it's a psychological and social issue involving discipline, impulse control, avoidance and other behavioral phenomena concerning money.

 

[jaeger19]

Assuming a purely seniority-based promotion policy and absolutely zero turnover. Not realistic.
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Well..not sure what you point is.. but 30 years to be a shift manager.. IS not realistic in my scenario. By assuming purely seniority based promotion policy and zero turnover.. that IMPROVES the odds of you being promoted to shift manager to being manager in 30 years.

IF you throw that out.. and someone can come in and become shift manager right off the bat? Now you lenthen the time to be a shift manager exponentially. Well past 30 years.. and not guaranteed. Regardless of your experience.

The best case scenario is that it takes 30 years for "everyone to be a shift manager".

 

[Neomalthusian]

Well..not sure what you point is.. but 30 years to be a shift manager.. IS not realistic in my scenario. By assuming purely seniority based promotion policy and zero turnover.. that IMPROVES the odds of you being promoted to shift manager to being manager in 30 years.

IF you throw that out.. and someone can come in and become shift manager right off the bat? Now you lenthen the time to be a shift manager exponentially. Well past 30 years.. and not guaranteed. Regardless of your experience.

The best case scenario is that it takes 30 years for "everyone to be a shift manager".

I think you're missing the point and invoking nonsense. When someone says everyone can be a shift leader, the point is almost anyone who has the ability to be a shift worker has the ability to become a shift leader. It's not difficult to master one's job and move a small step up the ladder. Of course not everyone will be a shift-leader, because most self-select out and don't want to commit to the company and stick around long enough for that to happen. But it's nonsense to argue that a team of 10 requires an adequate and qualified worker will have to wait 30 years on average for a promotion.

 

[jaeger19]

I think you're missing the point and invoking nonsense. When someone says everyone can be a shift leader, the point is almost anyone who has the ability to be a shift worker has the ability to become a shift leader. It's not difficult to master one's job and move a small step up the ladder. Of course not everyone will be a shift-leader, because most self-select out and don't want to commit to the company and stick around long enough for that to happen. But it's nonsense to argue that a team of 10 requires an adequate and qualified worker will have to wait 30 years on average for a promotion.

Nope.. sorry but you are missing the point. Not everyone that has the ability to be a shift leader HAS the opportunity to be a shift leader.

Its not nonsense that a team of 10 that has several qualified candidates will have to wait 30 years on average for EVERYONE of those qualified candidates to make shift manager.

You have multiple qualified candidates for ONE position on that team... say 6 qualified candidates. Promotion requires that a shift manager retire. change jobs or be fired. Its easily conceivable that a shift manager could stay in place for years and years. Leaving no room for the other qualified candidates. Not only conceivable but its reality.