• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Minimum Wage BS

oh fed, I've never denied some people work 7 days a week. How sad is it that you resort to claiming that? I've clearly and repeatedly stated that in America, 5 day work weeks are the norm. and the funny thing is your silly post is an actually an improvement over your claim that I said there are only 5 days in a week.

Oh Vern.

First, I don’t buy your attempt to claim “I based in on 7 days.” Unless you are posting from Somalia why would anyone in this country assume anything other than a 5 day work week? and your rationalization “I didn't want to exhaust my hypothetical worker.” was totally weak. Just say “oops”.

And since your original premise is flawed, there is no reason to assume the confusion didn’t extend to your math skills. Obamacare defines “full time” as 30 only as the cutoff of supplying healthcare. for you to use a 30 hour work week instead of the typical 40 hour work week to attack the “livable wage” narrative shows you can be easily confused. For future reference, in America a 5 day, 40 hour work week is the norm. As you obviously know, there is no minimum wage in Somalia.

Now few if any are claiming raising the wage from 7.25 to 9 makes it livable for a family. To me the argument is it improves the lifes of those at the bottom. In case you forgot, we live in America not Somalia. And not for nothing, your point seems to be “ there shouldn’t be a minimum wage” . If letting business set the wage level is so good for business and the economy, where’s the flood of businesses to somalia?

There's a half dozen or so of you who seem to think that either Brooks can't add (even though divide is the word you're looking for), or he's trying to deceive you because he added (again, you're looking for "divided") 30 and 7 rather than 30 and 5, assuming that he must be Somalian because American weeks only have 5 days in them. The level of ridiculousness in this discussion is epic in its proportions.
 
There's a half dozen or so of you who seem to think that either Brooks can't add (even though divide is the word you're looking for), or he's trying to deceive you because he added (again, you're looking for "divided") 30 and 7 rather than 30 and 5, assuming that he must be Somalian because American weeks only have 5 days in them. The level of ridiculousness in this discussion is epic in its proportions.

oh fed, thank you for another pointless post that in no way substantiates your false claims about my posts. Its probably best you steer clear of that issue. I clearly stated that I too assumed Brooks made a math mistake. I even saw his silly "explanation" before I posted. But as Ive clearly stated, I realize now that he used 7 days to help his weak narrative. again, he pointed out his use of the non standard 30 hour work week. He in no way pointed out his non standard use of 7 days. and he should have up front. But lets face it, his "living wage" rant was weak so needed a strawman to rail against.
 
Geez - give it up already... :doh
 
oh fed, thank you for another pointless post that in no way substantiates your false claims about my posts. Its probably best you steer clear of that issue. I clearly stated that I too assumed Brooks made a math mistake. I even saw his silly "explanation" before I posted. But as Ive clearly stated, I realize now that he used 7 days to help his weak narrative. again, he pointed out his use of the non standard 30 hour work week. He in no way pointed out his non standard use of 7 days. and he should have up front. But lets face it, his "living wage" rant was weak so needed a strawman to rail against.

Epic, yet still it grows.
 
First, I refer you to my red signature line for your opening sentence.

A minimum wage should find a more natural float point on its own. NEVER in our history was it supposed to be that undefined concept of a "livable wage" wage. What has changed? Why the sudden and drastic transition?

A fair wage for unskilled work will be naturally determined because if it is too low you won't attract good workers and quality would suffer then business would suffer, so you'd have to raise it. I think to some extent we need some kind of floor below which nobody should drop, but this latest concept (livagle wage / dignified wage) for unskilled work is wrong.

Sorry brooks but that's no exaggeration.. my example of the extremely low wages in other countries is very, very real.

What wage is "too low"? Why do workers in China work for so less than they do in America? They get good workers at those unskilled jobs?

The reason is because people, like in America.. need to eat... so, that wage will go to at or below subsistence if its allowed to. As it does in other countries...

What the minimum wage does in America.. and in other countries that set a wage.. is to prevent a wild wage swing, that would cause wages to dip very low, and then end up hurting the economy. when suddenly, no one has money to buy the goods and services they were producing.

There is a reason that other countries.. with unskilled and skilled labor do not have the wages we do.. and part of that is a function of minimum wage.
 
FederalRepublic said:
My point is he's not giving his best efforts if he's been working as a cashier for two years. Whether that means he's ruled out taking other jobs, or changing locations, or simply putting out more applications.

In other words, you do not find this sort of thing plausible. I disagree. I think it's plausible that a highly capable person, despite their best efforts, could remain unemployed or underemployed in our economy.

Labor statistics seem to bear out my point on this; hopefully I don't need to rehearse these again, since everyone's seen it by now: for every job there are typically umpteen-bazillion applicants. The reason the unemployment rate appears to be decreasing is at least substantially due to the fact that people are simply giving up (usually after many months of searching for work), etc.

The notion that someone who tries hard enough to find work is a cornerstone of conservative thinking, and is one part of conservativism that has also soaked into the American cultural character. In one sense, it's obviously true. If someone tries hard enough, they'll find work. But how hard is reasonable? I could land a job by, for example, surreptitiously murdering, say, fifty or sixty people in positions I would like to have, and then simply applying for each. Surely I'll get one of them. But is it reasonable to expect that kind of effort? What about if I do something unethical, just rather less so?

Is it reasonable to expect someone to apply for at least three positions every day for two years before they find something? (I'm not even sure I could find that many positions for which to apply). It seems I recall reading someting about someone who had actually lived a similar scenario, and after getting zero call-backs for a whole year, they gave up. This was a college graduate with a degree in business organization--it was one of those stories that came out about a year after the financial collapse. I'm sure most people heard about something similar.

So, while I agree people have to put forth effort, there comes a point beyond which the effort required becomes unreasonable. This is especially the case when you have people like Donald Trump with their own private jets, complete with solid-gold toilet seats. It really strikes me that when that is the situation, something has gone really wrong.

FederalRepublic said:
There are jobs to be had for anyone willing to work.

You bet. There are openings at White Castle.
 
In other words, you do not find this sort of thing plausible. I disagree. I think it's plausible that a highly capable person, despite their best efforts, could remain unemployed or underemployed in our economy.

Underemployed, sure. Unemployed, or employed as a cashier? Nope, that's lazy. If he refuses to look outside his field and/or move to a different area, that's lazy.

Labor statistics seem to bear out my point on this; hopefully I don't need to rehearse these again, since everyone's seen it by now: for every job there are typically umpteen-bazillion applicants.

I'm not sure where you live, but I see help wanted signs all over and it's been that way for 10 years.

The reason the unemployment rate appears to be decreasing is at least substantially due to the fact that people are simply giving up (usually after many months of searching for work), etc.

Something we agree on. Nice.

The notion that someone who tries hard enough to find work is a cornerstone of conservative thinking, and is one part of conservativism that has also soaked into the American cultural character. In one sense, it's obviously true. If someone tries hard enough, they'll find work. But how hard is reasonable? I could land a job by, for example, surreptitiously murdering, say, fifty or sixty people in positions I would like to have, and then simply applying for each. Surely I'll get one of them. But is it reasonable to expect that kind of effort? What about if I do something unethical, just rather less so?

Why not just let those fifty or sixty people keep on working. Then you could organize a political movement and have them send you a check every month...

Is it reasonable to expect someone to apply for at least three positions every day for two years before they find something? (I'm not even sure I could find that many positions for which to apply). It seems I recall reading someting about someone who had actually lived a similar scenario, and after getting zero call-backs for a whole year, they gave up. This was a college graduate with a degree in business organization--it was one of those stories that came out about a year after the financial collapse. I'm sure most people heard about something similar.

So, while I agree people have to put forth effort, there comes a point beyond which the effort required becomes unreasonable. This is especially the case when you have people like Donald Trump with their own private jets, complete with solid-gold toilet seats. It really strikes me that when that is the situation, something has gone really wrong.

It's not a matter of whether the effort required is unreasonable. It is what it is. It isn't the same for any two people, or for any two chosen paths. If yours is too much for you to carry, you've probably made a poor choice of direction and it's not up to society to make you comfortable in your poor choices. Neither you nor I have any idea what Donald Trump's work ethic is, so whether he has a gold toilet seat or not means absolutely nothing to me. Unless you're trying to say that everyone should have the same income regardless of who they are or what they do, this is a pointless line of reasoning.
 
Thanks for all of this effort, it was great.

Of course, this raises the interesting question: how can we know when things are out of balance? I propose that it's possible to look at history and examine the conditions present when times were at their relative best. One thing that I note about these times is that income gaps are usually pretty low, and education is more prevalent relative to the standard of the time in question.
How we define income gaps is the rub here, because there will always be the super achievers.
Does an out of balance gap describe how much the very richest ones earn or the number of high earners there are?



Brooks: An employer wants a business to succeed or he won't have a job, but it's not because he feel indebted to the owner.
It's not like helping a starving child, that type of charity gives you nothing material in return.
The employer gives compensation for the labor he himself can't provide and the employee gives labor for the compensation he doesn't have. It's a break even. They don't even have to care about each other
ashurbanipal: Yes, that is an apt description of how things are. But I do not say this is how things should be.
Then which way should the courtesy flow? Should the employer give the worker more than he deserves to make the employer's life better or should the worker take less from the employer to make the employer's life better?
Unless compensation is determined by a natural formula, one of them will be getting more, and the other less, than what they deserve.

Brooks: When they stop tolerating it they will move on to a job more commensurate with their perception of their worth. That's the idea of minimum wage - your first unskilled job.
ashurbanipal: If that's possible for them to do. One problem these days is that it's often not possible.
But when the government forces the business owner to pay a worker based on what he needs rather than what he deserves, then every business owner has to do it for every worker. Including those who don't have the need.
The high school kid doing 40 hours per week at Panera in the Summer does not have that need for a livable wage.


Well, this certainly seems like a potent argument at first. But consider that it's possible to make it no matter how low wages go. I guarantee I could run a highly profitable business if the law allowed me to commandeer workers that I didn't have to pay. I could run a profitable business if I only had to pay 10 cents an hour. And so on. But if my business models depend on that, then the moment minimum wage is raised by some increment, my business will fail.
Your business model would never be workable in the first place because such a low wage would attract NO workers at all. But if by "commandeer" you mean slavery, that's equally as unrealistic.
I like our theoretical discussion because it's so clean, but in a case like this we have to bring the real world into it a little bit.

That said, I agree with you to some extent. Raising the minimum wage causes fractures in the overall economy (and it may be easy to see why by thinking about the example I gave above). I don't want to put mom and pop out of business, though at the same time, I also want it to be the case that someone who is reasonably capable and who wants a job can get one commensurate with their skills.
Getting a job commensurate with their skills is out of the hands of society. People may have chosen their profession poorly and there's nothing that can be done about that.
Getting a wage that's commensurate with their skills is what we all want, but for those at the unskilled rank of society, that wage must be what it deserves.
Another thing, a lot of what you are saying is based on helping the workers because the economy is bad (which is why they can't find more gainful employment).
But the economy is equally as bad for these businesses. Why would they be getting less consideration. You seemed to have set up a system in which we ask business owners to sacrifice when they are the most vulnerable.

I met a guy the other day working as a cashier at the local White Castle that has a Master's degree from the University of Ohio in psychology. He'd been in that position two years, and looks, when he has time, for something in his field. He wasn't lazy or inarticulate; he had a very professional demeanor and appearance. This was just the only job he could find. And that's a narrative that is all too common these days. It's not just those individuals who suffer, we all suffer, because we're not utilizing the full collective force of our population.
I feel bad for him and I'm sorry it has to be that way, but what is White Castle's responsibility in that?
What if someone applied for a job, who has fewer personal expenses, and is willing to do the same job for less money?
Does White Castle owe so much to this underemployed man that it should cost them money?
 
When and if you learn that no every one subscribes to your embedded views, you'll be on your way to learning.
Just because I do not find you to be perspicacious doesn't mean that I'm a brawler.
The mere fact that you've been on several different political forums doesn't impress me in the least. I've no doubt you tried to browbeat those who would not kowtow to your way of thinking.
Don't worry about where I fit in. Instead worry about where you fit in.
Look back at your posts. The majority of them are one sentence insults. I just don't get it, that's all.
Show me what you call browbeating and compare it to some of your own posts.

If arshubanipal, Gaius, Removable Mind, Jaeger, year2late, etc. post something, I KNOW I'll probably disagree but I also know I'll learn something. They actually influence people.

If you seriously think you've been browbeaten I sincerely would like you to point it out to me because I wasn't aware of it, but also look at the things you've said to me.
Have I even come close to calling you an imbecile, for example?
 
Any wage should be based on an equation of the importance of the job vs. how many people are available to do it, period. To do otherwise hurts business.

The new clarion call is that if someone is willing to work full time he should make a "dignified wage" and be able to support himself. Some even say support a family.
Fine. Obamacare has declared 30 hours per week to be full time. That's less than 4.5 hours per day.

What would someone need to be paid per hour to support himself by working 4.5 hours per day?

Too much.
 
Then be a pessimist. You find it rewarding complain about the contribution of others, have at it. It's an open forum. Just get used to being a complainer.
I will only complain to/about people who are snotty, 'cuz they kinda deserve it.
 
4.5x7=31.5?
AliHS, if my OP had said that the employee worked 4.285714285714285714285... hours per week, you would have said "what an ass", and you would have been right.

Do you really believe I thought 7 went into 30 evenly (that's not rhetorical, I'm genuinely curious)?
Follow up: and if I did, does it really affect the point of the post?
Now, do you want to talk about the original premise?
 
Forgetting that 7 times 4.5 = 31.5, I too just assumed his math skills were weak. In America, we work a 5 day work week. Stop. 5 days. There was no reason for us to assume he meant otherwise. If you are going to use something that’s not the norm , you need to point that out upfront. And that's exactly what he did when he used 30 hours instead of 40 hours. It was a weak justification but he explained it upfront. But he didn't explain the use of 7 days and he like you is whining that we should have known what he meant. No, this is a debate forum not kindergarten.

So the question was asked, why did you use a 7 day work week. And his totally unbelievable excuse was "I didn't want to tire out my imaginary worker". Remember, this is a debate forum not kindergarten. Since his reason was unbelievable, it just made the notion that he screwed up the math more believable. But in retrospect its easy to see that he was using 30 hour work week as full time over 7 days to make his rant against "livable wage" look better. I mean who could argue for minimum wage should be high enough to allow people to work 4.5 hours a day and support a family of four. And since nobody was arguing for that he automatically wins. When I start a thread, I argue against what people actually say. I don't have to delicately construct a narrative to argue against.
The funny part, Vern, is that whether we divide it over 7 days or 5 days, the answer to the original question would be the same.
Was it really worth all this?
 
Sorry brooks but that's no exaggeration.. my example of the extremely low wages in other countries is very, very real.
What wage is "too low"? Why do workers in China work for so less than they do in America? They get good workers at those unskilled jobs?
The reason is because people, like in America.. need to eat... so, that wage will go to at or below subsistence if its allowed to. As it does in other countries...
What the minimum wage does in America.. and in other countries that set a wage.. is to prevent a wild wage swing, that would cause wages to dip very low, and then end up hurting the economy. when suddenly, no one has money to buy the goods and services they were producing.
There is a reason that other countries.. with unskilled and skilled labor do not have the wages we do.. and part of that is a function of minimum wage.
I said in another post that I do believe there should be some minimum, but this new concept that the minimum wage has to be a support-yourself wage is unprecedented. And dangerous.
 
Just to get this thread back onto a valuable discussion.

A question to all those that think that minimum wage should be abolished.

According to free market principles, since many countries.. notably China, have much lower wages than America, if minimum wage was abolished, wages would go significantly lower to compete with these countries.

Do you contend that this would b a good thing for the American economy?

And what do you think an economy where unskilled workers averaged 1.00 an hour or less would look like?
 
Just to get this thread back onto a valuable discussion.
A question to all those that think that minimum wage should be abolished.
According to free market principles, since many countries.. notably China, have much lower wages than America, if minimum wage was abolished, wages would go significantly lower to compete with these countries.
Do you contend that this would b a good thing for the American economy?
And what do you think an economy where unskilled workers averaged 1.00 an hour or less would look like?
Very real world j. It would be terrible.
 
AliHS, if my OP had said that the employee worked 4.285714285714285714285... hours per week, you would have said "what an ass", and you would have been right.

Do you really believe I thought 7 went into 30 evenly (that's not rhetorical, I'm genuinely curious)?
Follow up: and if I did, does it really affect the point of the post?
Now, do you want to talk about the original premise?

I think you made a mistake, that is my opinion.

As for the original premise, I'm somewhere in the middle. The demand for a profession should help determine the salary--who knows what milkmen would have to make today. There are certainly abuses that can take place as a result of companies that dominate a town attempting to force down rates.
 
Just to get this thread back onto a valuable discussion.

A question to all those that think that minimum wage should be abolished.

According to free market principles, since many countries.. notably China, have much lower wages than America, if minimum wage was abolished, wages would go significantly lower to compete with these countries.

Do you contend that this would b a good thing for the American economy?

And what do you think an economy where unskilled workers averaged 1.00 an hour or less would look like?

Given our current situation, if the minimum wage was abolished there would be slave labor since there are more workers than jobs at the moment. Anyone not willing to work for those slave wages would find themselves out on the street because I'm sure along with the min wage being abolished so would welfare.
 
Given our current situation, if the minimum wage was abolished there would be slave labor since there are more workers than jobs at the moment. Anyone not willing to work for those slave wages would find themselves out on the street because I'm sure along with the min wage being abolished so would welfare.

I would agree with the caveat that what would happen is that welfare would increase.

Big business would benefit from paying very low wages...

Then big business would benefit from the welfare coming in from all those people on welfare..

Not to mention that since a lot of folks who are on welfare work..essentially, the government would be subsidizing their workers. In fact.. in some corporations that's exactly whats happening.

And since taxes are low.. Big business would not have to pay the piper on the tax end.
 
Look back at your posts. The majority of them are one sentence insults. I just don't get it, that's all.
Show me what you call browbeating and compare it to some of your own posts.

If arshubanipal, Gaius, Removable Mind, Jaeger, year2late, etc. post something, I KNOW I'll probably disagree but I also know I'll learn something. They actually influence people.

If you seriously think you've been browbeaten I sincerely would like you to point it out to me because I wasn't aware of it, but also look at the things you've said to me.
Have I even come close to calling you an imbecile, for example?

Yes, you've been driving around in the neighborhood.
 
I would agree with the caveat that what would happen is that welfare would increase.

Big business would benefit from paying very low wages...

Then big business would benefit from the welfare coming in from all those people on welfare..

Not to mention that since a lot of folks who are on welfare work..essentially, the government would be subsidizing their workers. In fact.. in some corporations that's exactly whats happening.

And since taxes are low.. Big business would not have to pay the piper on the tax end.

Why would welfare increase? That would just mean that people would choose welfare over working.

So for min wage to be abolished, welfare would have to be abolished as well.
 
Just to get this thread back onto a valuable discussion.

A question to all those that think that minimum wage should be abolished.

According to free market principles, since many countries.. notably China, have much lower wages than America, if minimum wage was abolished, wages would go significantly lower to compete with these countries.

Do you contend that this would b a good thing for the American economy?

And what do you think an economy where unskilled workers averaged 1.00 an hour or less would look like?

I don't think that would be a good thing, but what makes you think it would go that low?
 
Why would welfare increase? That would just mean that people would choose welfare over working.

So for min wage to be abolished, welfare would have to be abolished as well.

Only if you allow people to stay on it indefinitely.
 
Only if you allow people to stay on it indefinitely.

I still see you are not getting it. Prices stay the same, min wage drops, not enough jobs for people, and you say people can't stay on welfare indefinitely. So you will have tons of people out on the streets, because there aren't enough jobs to go around.
 
Back
Top Bottom