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Middleground in the Abortion Debate

Abortion is ALREADY at the middle ground :shrug:

Legal freedoms and rights are still intact, people that dont want to have an abortion dont have too and people who do can up to 22 weeks or so.

Really dont see how it gets more middleground than that, anything else wouldn't be middle ground really, maybe we can do a general (not concrete) cap at 18 months :shrug:

I don't know if it is the middleground, but is the current situation was the compromise the US Supreme court thougth was both fair with regards to the woman and the unborn material inside her.
 
I think continuing pregnancies to term and giving birth for the purpose of having children is recreational.

That's the dumbest thing I've heard all week.

In fact, when Obama worked out a compromise - religion-affiliated organizations such as Catholic universities, which are not truly religious organizations such as churches, could provide insurance to employees and the insurers would separately contact the insured to offer free birth control coverage - the insurance companies jumped at the chance.

Nothing stoped insurance companies from doing this in the first place.
 
Yes, and Jay (and Jerry and some others) also have a problem in being against abortion in a case of violent rape. This shows that the person does not really believe that abortion is wrong because the woman consented to the risk of pregnancy by consenting to sex.

That's correct, I do not oppose abortion for that reason. I oppose abortion for another reason. A woman's consent is totally irrelevant in any scenario as it doesn't change the the fact that a ZEF is a a human being. You don't kill people, especially your own damn children, unless they are a threat to you or others.
 
That's correct, I do not oppose abortion for that reason. I oppose abortion for another reason. A woman's consent is totally irrelevant in any scenario as it doesn't change the the fact that a ZEF is a a human being. You don't kill people, especially your own damn children, unless they are a threat to you or others.

The whole issue is Jerry, that not everyone agrees with you that it is killing people/your own child when an abortion is performed. It may from your point of view be a sad thing but that is how things are now.

I hope that the option to have a legal abortion within strict time-constraints remain possible because else women will die a horrible death when they have to have a back-alley abortion with all the risks attached.
 
The whole issue is Jerry, that not everyone agrees with you that it is killing people/your own child when an abortion is performed. It may from your point of view be a sad thing but that is how things are now.

I hope that the option to have a legal abortion within strict time-constraints remain possible because else women will die a horrible death when they have to have a back-alley abortion with all the risks attached.

Do you know what a "back alley" abortion actually means?
 
The whole issue is Jerry, that not everyone agrees with you that it is killing people/your own child when an abortion is performed.

I don't see your point.

I hope that the option to have a legal abortion within strict time-constraints remain possible because else women will die a horrible death when they have to have a back-alley abortion with all the risks attached.
Uh-ooohh someone said it again ;)

http://www.physiciansforlife.org/content/view/2157/26/5 Myths About “Back Alley” Abortions

Myth #1. Illegal abortions were performed by unlicensed, unskilled hacks.


Prior to legalization, 90 percent of illegal abortions were done by physicians. Most of the remainder were done by nurses, midwives or others with at least some medical training.

The term “back alley” referred not to where abortions were performed, but to how women were instructed to enter the doctor’s office after hours, through the back alley, to avoid arousing neighbors’ suspicions.

An illegal abortion may be called a "back-alley", "backstreet", or "back-yard" abortion.

The wire coat hanger method was a popularly known illegal abortion procedure, although they were not the norm. In fact, Mary Calderone, former medical director of Planned Parenthood, said, in a 1960 printing of the American Journal of Public Health:

"Abortion is no longer a dangerous procedure. This applies not just to therapeutic abortions as performed in hospitals but also to so-called illegal abortions as done by physician. In 1957 there were only 260 deaths in the whole country attributed to abortions of any kind, second, and even more important, the conference [on abortion sponsored by Planned Parenthood] estimated that 90 percent of all illegal abortions are presently being done by physicians. Whatever trouble arises usually arises from self-induced abortions, which comprise approximately 8 percent, or with the very small percentage that go to some kind of non-medical abortionist. Abortion, whether therapeutic or illegal, is in the main no longer dangerous, because it is being done well by physicians."


Unsafe abortion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Do you know what a "back alley" abortion actually means?

Yes, illegal abortions. It did not have to be a back alley but the risks to women was much greater than it is today now that it is legal.
 
Yes, illegal abortions. It did not have to be a back alley but the risks to women was much greater than it is today now that it is legal.

Please stop the lying. It doesn't represent you well.
 
Please stop the lying. It doesn't represent you well.

I am pretty sure that insults are not the norm on a forum, and sorry to say Jerry, but you insult people (including me) and it is not acceptable IMHO.

I try to be civil to you, even though your online demeanor does not make that easy, to be able to discuss.

You however do not seem to even care, so neither should I, but I do and will keep being civil, even if people do not deserve that.
 
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Abortions have always been done, dating from ancient Greek days.


I posted this on another thread a few weeks ago:

Many, many women's lives were in danger before Roe, before legal, safer abortions were an option in the US the women used illegal abortions. They were often done either by the patient herself or by an abortionist — often unknowing, unskilled and in an
unsanitary setting.

from a MD's Essay:
Repairing the Damage, Before Roe

The worst case I saw, and one I hope no one else will ever have to face, was that of a nurse who was admitted with what looked like a partly delivered umbilical cord.
Yet as soon as we examined her, we realized that what we thought was the cord was in fact part of her intestine,
which had been hooked and torn by whatever implement had been used in the abortion.
It took six hours of surgery to remove the infected uterus and ovaries and repair the part of the bowel that was still functional.

It is important to remember that Roe v. Wade did not mean that abortions could be performed. They have always been done, dating from ancient Greek days.

What Roe said was that ending a pregnancy could be carried out by medical personnel, in a medically accepted setting, thus conferring on women, finally, the full rights of first-class citizens — and freeing their doctors to treat them as such.



http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/03/health/views/03essa.html?_r=1
 
Illegal abortion

An illegal abortion may be called a "back-alley", "backstreet", or "back-yard" abortion.

The wire coat hanger method was a popularly known illegal abortion procedure, although they were not the norm. In fact, Mary Calderone, former medical director of Planned Parenthood, said, in a 1970 printing of the American Journal of Public Health:

"Abortion is no longer a dangerous procedure. This applies not just to therapeutic abortions as performed in hospitals but also to so-called illegal abortions as done by physician. In 1957 there were only 260 deaths in the whole country attributed to abortions of any kind, second, and even more important, the conference [on abortion sponsored by Planned Parenthood] estimated that 90 percent of all illegal abortions are presently being done by physicians. Whatever trouble arises usually arises from self-induced abortions, which comprise approximately 8 percent, or with the very small percentage that go to some kind of non-medical abortionist. Abortion, whether therapeutic or illegal, is in the main no longer dangerous, because it is being done well by physicians."
 
Yes, illegal abortions. It did not have to be a back alley but the risks to women was much greater than it is today now that it is legal.

No. It meant the woman had to enter the DOCTORS OFFICE from the back entrance, so no one would see her and know that the DOCTOR was performing illegal abortions.

I'm always amazed at the opinions people have based on myth.
 
'My Back-Alley Abortion'

In the 1950's the shame of unwed pregnancy led women to turn to coat hangers and unsavory types like Barney.

BY: Marie Johnstone
...
Eventually we pulled into the carport of a small, dreary, gray ranch-style aluminum-siding house, and Barney said I could take off the blindfold. Those were the first words he had spoken since "Have you got the money?"

The carport door led into a somewhat dingy kitchen, where the woman stood. Steamy and overheated, it smelled like last night's fried food and boiled greens. She took the money. Barney disappeared. The woman pointed me into a small room that led off a short, dark hallway just beyond the kitchen, said to put my coat on the chair and remove my panties, Barney would be here right away. In the room was a wooden table similar to the one in my parents' kitchen. There were two chairs and another, smaller table on which there was a pitcher of water alongside a basin, some paper cups and a small stack of towels. The room had faded wallpaper with rows of brownish designs that looked like stalks of wheat.

Barney entered, minus his overcoat. He could have been anyone's bad caricature of a greasy-haired used car salesman. He had on a white shirt and red striped tie, both pretty much the worse for wear. Had I not been hypnotically bound into it myself, the entire scene would have seemed so like a bad B movie as to be funny. It was not funny at the time. Barney said to lie on my back on the table. This won't hurt, he said. I felt something being inserted into my vagina, something smaller than a tampon. It was over in a matter of minutes. Barney said to put my panties back on and he'd be in the car. I wondered later if he had washed his hands, before or after. ...

The doctor said, Who did this to you? Nobody, I said, I just went ice skating and had a bad fall. After a few moments of uncomfortable probing, mentally and physically, he said, You are one of the lucky ones. He gave me a prescription to fill and told me to come back in a month, sooner if I had problems.

Read more: 'My Back-Alley Abortion' - Beliefnet.com
 
All this manufactured nonsense about insurance companies being required to cover BC? Yeah I know about it. The opposition isn't all about banning BC. We're all about you paying for your own recreational activities. I don't ask you to buy my pistol ammo so don't ask me to buy your condoms. Be an adult and go buy it yourself.

It looks like I was right and you havent been paying enough attention to the news about the rightwings position on contraception.
 
You can question my debate style all you like, but these people are still a small, irrelevant token minority, not the big-bad majority of the right you originally claimed. There is no movement to get rid of BC, and even if there were. most on the right would oppose it.

He wasn't debating your "style", such as it is. He debunked your nonsensical claims
 
Let's be clear: "Birth Control" is a generic term in the common vernacular meaning, no surprise, to control birth. It's hormone therapy, in reality, and the term "birth control" does not apply to the exact same pill when that exact same pill is being used for any other purpose.

No one opposes insurance coverage for hormone therapy treatment for various medical ills such as PCOS. We oppose paying for you to use that exact same pill for a recreational use, not medical niceness.

We don't oppose the pill itself, we oppose paying for how you use it.

Viagra should be covered when it's treating a valid circulatory problem. Viagra should not be covered just because a guy wants to keep an erection for 6hrs.

ANd once again, you have mistated the position of many on the right.

Deny it all you want, but a significant portion of the right want to ban contraceptives
 
You mean cheap and available to everyone like it is now? Doesnt get much cheaper than a condom at $.25 and it doesnt get much more available than the any local convenience store or drug store.

Yes, many men what only men to have all power over birth control - or not. Women just have to take whatever you and us men decide. That's why you specify condoms. You don't want women to have birth control power directly herself.
 
That's correct, I do not oppose abortion for that reason. I oppose abortion for another reason. A woman's consent is totally irrelevant in any scenario as it doesn't change the the fact that a ZEF is a a human being. You don't kill people, especially your own damn children, unless they are a threat to you or others.

ZEF's are not people, and never were until some politicians realized they could delude the addled brained into believing that they were.
 
ZEF's are not people, and never were until some politicians realized they could delude the addled brained into believing that they were.

What, ZEF's are not people??

 
I am pretty sure that insults are not the norm on a forum, and sorry to say Jerry, but you insult people (including me) and it is not acceptable IMHO.

I try to be civil to you, even though your online demeanor does not make that easy, to be able to discuss.

You however do not seem to even care, so neither should I, but I do and will keep being civil, even if people do not deserve that.

Calling you out when you lie is not an insult. You lying in the first place is an insult to yourself.
 
from a MD's Essay:
Repairing the Damage, Before Roe

For the sake of civility I'll assume you're just grossly misinformed about the topic of abortion.

http://www.physiciansforlife.org/content/view/2157/26/5 Myths About “Back Alley” Abortions

Myth #1. Illegal abortions were performed by unlicensed, unskilled hacks.


Prior to legalization, 90 percent of illegal abortions were done by physicians. Most of the remainder were done by nurses, midwives or others with at least some medical training.

The term “back alley” referred not to where abortions were performed, but to how women were instructed to enter the doctor’s office after hours, through the back alley, to avoid arousing neighbors’ suspicions.

An illegal abortion may be called a "back-alley", "backstreet", or "back-yard" abortion.

The wire coat hanger method was a popularly known illegal abortion procedure, although they were not the norm. In fact, Mary Calderone, former medical director of Planned Parenthood, said, in a 1960 printing of the American Journal of Public Health:

"Abortion is no longer a dangerous procedure. This applies not just to therapeutic abortions as performed in hospitals but also to so-called illegal abortions as done by physician. In 1957 there were only 260 deaths in the whole country attributed to abortions of any kind, second, and even more important, the conference [on abortion sponsored by Planned Parenthood] estimated that 90 percent of all illegal abortions are presently being done by physicians. Whatever trouble arises usually arises from self-induced abortions, which comprise approximately 8 percent, or with the very small percentage that go to some kind of non-medical abortionist. Abortion, whether therapeutic or illegal, is in the main no longer dangerous, because it is being done well by physicians."


Unsafe abortion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
I think continuing pregnancies to term and giving birth for the purpose of having children is recreational.

That's the dumbest thing I've heard all week.

Why is it dumb? I don't see why it is necessary to produce children, but even if you are able to dream up some rationalization for it, why does anyone need to produce more than one child? Most women in the US who have abortions already have given birth to a child before the abortion. You need to explain what is necessary about producing children, and moreover what is necessary about producing more than one child per woman. If you cannot give a persuasive explanation, then producing children is recreational.
 
That's correct, I do not oppose abortion for that reason. I oppose abortion for another reason. A woman's consent is totally irrelevant in any scenario as it doesn't change the the fact that a ZEF is a a human being. You don't kill people, especially your own damn children, unless they are a threat to you or others.

I do not believe any ZEF is a woman's child unless she says it is. However, for you to dare to claim that a rape embryo or rape fetus inside a rape victim is in any way even the rape victim's embryo or fetus is an insult to every rape victim who refuses to acknowledge anything to do with the utter violation of her person which that embryo or fetus represents. You are falsely accusing the rape victim of being a parent of something that states in its very DNA that she is one flesh with the rapist. How dare you!
 
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Calling you out when you lie is not an insult. You lying in the first place is an insult to yourself.

ecept that you calling me a liar is an insult and also not truthful.
 
For the sake of civility I'll assume you're just grossly misinformed about the topic of abortion.

Jerry
About 10% or more of the woman who had abortions had illegal abortions. Sometimes they even tried to abort themselves
( with coat hangers, knitting meedles, Lysol, etc).

Lysol's pretty cheap:


lysoldouche2.jpeg


Of course, women who couldn’t afford or gain access to medically administered birth control had to come up with their own strategies for staying baby free. Douching was cheap, accessible, and widely advertised as a feminine hygiene product; however, as Andrea Tone writes in the book Devices and Desires: A History of Contraceptives in America, it was also the most common form of birth control from 1940 until 1960—when the oral contraceptive pill arrived on the market.

The most popular brand of douche was Lysol—an antiseptic soap whose pre-1953 formula contained cresol, a phenol compound reported in some cases to cause inflammation, burning, and even death.
By 1911 doctors had recorded 193 Lysol poisonings and five deaths from uterine irrigation. Despite reports to the contrary, Lysol was aggressively marketed to women as safe and gentle.
Once cresol was replaced with ortho-hydroxydiphenyl in the formula, Lysol was pushed as a germicide good for cleaning toilet bowls and treating ringworm, and Lehn & Fink's, the company that made the disinfectant, continued to market it as safeguard for women's "dainty feminine allure."



When Women Used Lysol as Birth Control | Mother Jones
 
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