Michigan cop on Black man's back, fatally shot him

[justabubba]

There is no "correct number of suspected persons" that the police "should kill".

take that up with bluesmoke, who insists "American LEO kill too many citizens"
clearly he believes a lesser number should be killed
thus, my post was written soliciting his input to determine what the correct number of perps killed by LEO should be

However, if "Group A" comprises 10% of the population, it would not be "suspicious" if the percentage of "suspected persons" that the police killed that belonged to "Group A" was 10% of the number of "suspected persons" that the police killed.

The real issue is to determine the actual size of the actual population to be considered.

If 20% of the total population belongs to "Group X" and if 10% of the "suspected persons" that the police kill belong to "Group X" then the number would be lower than expected.

your pro rata assessment excludes cultural factors

if we were to identify the number of asian students who are able to attend elite universities in the US based only on their proportion of the US population, then their number would be over-representative
an explanation for such over-representation could be that there is a cultural dynamic within the asian population to strive for higher education

i would submit that if there is a similar cultural dynamic within the black population to refuse to cooperate with law enforcement officials, causing their proportion of negative law enforcement encounters to be higher

 

[jaeger19]

take that up with bluesmoke, who insists "American LEO kill too many citizens"
clearly he believes a lesser number should be killed
thus, my post was written soliciting his input to determine what the correct number of perps killed by LEO should be

your pro rata assessment excludes cultural factors

if we were to identify the number of asian students who are able to attend elite universities in the US based only on their proportion of the US population, then their number would be over-representative
an explanation for such over-representation could be that there is a cultural dynamic within the asian population to strive for higher education

i would submit that if there is a similar cultural dynamic within the black population to refuse to cooperate with law enforcement officials, causing their proportion of negative law enforcement encounters to be higher

You would be wrong about a cultural dynamic among african americans:

"Using data from 3,116 police-suspect encounters documented as part of an observational study in two urban settings, Terrill and Mastrofski (2002) find similar differences indicating that officers treated nonwhite, poor, and younger suspects more forcefully than others even conditional on their behavior. "
In other words.. the same behavior by a white person did not lead to force.

This paper explores racial di↵erences in police use of force. On non-lethal uses of force, blacks and Hispanics are more than fifty percent more likely to experience some form of force in interactions with police. Adding controls that account for important context and civilian behavior reduces, but cannot fully explain, these disparities
https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/fryer/files/empirical_analysis_tables_figures.pdf

 

[bluesmoke]

You ever notice that a particular segment of the posters here feel the need to change the facts of the scenario to try to justify their points? It belies a certain attitude to the subject matter. Wonder what that is?

Yes, I've noticed.

The attitude is lying is OK during combat. The Rep/cons are in total war with Dems. The Dems think not fighting back will work in the end.

 

[bluesmoke]

take that up with bluesmoke, who insists "American LEO kill too many citizens"
clearly he believes a lesser number should be killed
thus, my post was written soliciting his input to determine what the correct number of perps killed by LEO should be

Less. At an avg of advanced societies would be a good start. That would be an unfair comparison because we're falling back, not advancing, compared to those advanced societies.

 

[bluesmoke]

share with us the correct number of perps the law enforcement officers should kill and of that number what portion should be black

The correct number is "less". The initial goal would be the avg of advanced society. The portion of black people killed would be no more than the % of black people in the total pop.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

take that up with bluesmoke, who insists "American LEO kill too many citizens"
clearly he believes a lesser number should be killed
thus, my post was written soliciting his input to determine what the correct number of perps killed by LEO should be

your pro rata assessment excludes cultural factors

if we were to identify the number of asian students who are able to attend elite universities in the US based only on their proportion of the US population, then their number would be over-representative
an explanation for such over-representation could be that there is a cultural dynamic within the asian population to strive for higher education

An interesting use of the "Let's look at ONLY a single factor because that means that the results will be what I want them to be." school of thought.

i would submit that if there is a similar cultural dynamic within the black population to refuse to cooperate with law enforcement officials, causing their proportion of negative law enforcement encounters to be higher

Indeed.

It is a statistical fact that "Blacks" are killed by police officers in numbers disproportionate to (read as "higher than") their share of the population.

It is also a statistical fact that police officers are killed by "Blacks" in numbers disproportionate to (read as "higher than")their share of the population.

This, of course, leads "Blacks" to be more prone to "resist" because they know that they are killed by police officers in numbers disproportionate to (read as "higher than") their share of the population due to the heightened sense of treat/danger. It also, of course, leads police officers to be more prone to kill "Blacks" in numbers disproportionate to (read as "higher than")their share of the population due to the heightened sense of treat/danger.

In short "Police" kill "Blacks" at a higher rate because "Blacks" kill "Police" at a higher rate and "Blacks" kill "Police" at a higher rate because "Police" kill "Blacks" at a higher rate. That means that what you have is a positive feedback loop and so, absent some outside intervening factor, that also means that the rates will simply keep on getting higher.

[1] You are NOT going to get that outside intervening factor WITHOUT a "cultural shift". - GO TO [2]

[2] You are NOT going to get that "cultural shift" WITHOUT admitting that there is a need for one. - GO TO [3]​

​

[3] Admitting that there is a need for a "cultural shift" means also admitting that there is something "wrong" with the current culture. - GO TO [4]​

​

[4] Admitting that there is something "wrong" with the current culture means also admitting that **A*M*E*R*I*C*A** actually has something wrong with its society. - GO TO [5]​

​

[5] To admit that there is anything wrong with American society is unAmerican. - GO TO [1]​

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Less. At an avg of advanced societies would be a good start. That would be an unfair comparison because we're falling back, not advancing, compared to those advanced societies.

In Canada, during 2021, the police shot 60 people and killed 36 of them. That works out to around 1 person in 639,383 being shot and around 1 person in 1,065,638 being killed.

In the US, during 2021, the police shot an unknown number of people (no one appears to bother to keep track) and killed 946. That works out to around 1 person in 353,746 being killed.

I'd suggest that a more "statistically appropriate" (which is not to say that even that number is "acceptable") for police killings in the US would be in the neighbourhood of 315.

Mind you, if I wanted to be snarky (and you know that I NEVER am), I'd compare the US to the UK where there were 3 people killed by the police (giving a ratio of around 1 person in 22,851,676 being killed [which would lower the "statistically appropriate" US level to around 15]).

 

[bluesmoke]

In Canada, during 2021, the police shot 60 people and killed 36 of them. That works out to around 1 person in 639,383 being shot and around 1 person in 1,065,638 being killed.

In the US, during 2021, the police shot an unknown number of people (no one appears to bother to keep track) and killed 946. That works out to around 1 person in 353,746 being killed.

I'd suggest that a more "statistically appropriate" (which is not to say that even that number is "acceptable") for police killings in the US would be in the neighbourhood of 315.

Mind you, if I wanted to be snarky (and you know that I NEVER am), I'd compare the US to the UK where there were 3 people killed by the police (giving a ratio of around 1 person in 22,851,676 being killed [which would lower the "statistically appropriate" US level to around 15]).

In terms of those countries with advancing societies, we're not even in the rear-view mirror.

 

[justabubba]

Michigan police officer charged with second-degree murder in Patrick Lyoya case​

Michigan police officer charged with second-degree murder in Patrick Lyoya case ｜ The Detroit News

GRAND RAPIDS, Mich. — Kent County Prosecutor Christopher Becker announced Thursday he will charge Grand Rapids police Officer Christopher Schurr with second-degree murder in the April 4 shooting death of Patrick Lyoya. Schurr has turned himself in to the Michigan State Police and is expected to...

nordot.app

"The elements of second-degree murder is relatively simple. First, there was a death, a death done by the defendant. ... The death was not justified or excused, for example, by self-defense. Taking a look at everything that I reviewed in this case, I believe there's a sufficient basis to proceed."

~ becker, the prosecutor

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Michigan police officer charged with second-degree murder in Patrick Lyoya case ｜ The Detroit News

GRAND RAPIDS, Mich. — Kent County Prosecutor Christopher Becker announced Thursday he will charge Grand Rapids police Officer Christopher Schurr with second-degree murder in the April 4 shooting death of Patrick Lyoya. Schurr has turned himself in to the Michigan State Police and is expected to...

nordot.app

~ becker, the prosecutor

Idiocy. Cops should let everyone go.

 

[justabubba]

Idiocy. Cops should let everyone go.

the prosecutor is already propagandizing the prospective jury pool:
"... The death was not justified or excused, for example, by self-defense. ...."

will look forward to his proving there is no valid self defense claim

 

[jaeger19]

Idiocy. Cops should let everyone go.

You need to drive there right now! and be sure to show the DA that he knows nothing of the law..be sure to show him all your " evidence" .
You could have this all cleared in just a day.
Go go go..

 

[Grizzly Adams]

You need to drive there right now! and be sure to show the DA that he knows nothing of the law..be sure to show him all your " evidence" .
You could have this all cleared in just a day.
Go go go..

You're probably right. Why even bother with a trial?

 

[jaeger19]

You're probably right. Why even bother with a trial?

Exactly..you need to run down there with all your evidence. Be sure to explain to the da how he knows nothing about the law. Also bd sure to tell all the Leo's who did the investigation that they obviously don't know anything about police work or procedures..
You could take it right up to the judge..
I bet you can get this cleared right up without a trial.
So get going.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Exactly..you need to run down there with all your evidence. Be sure to explain to the da how he knows nothing about the law. Also bd sure to tell all the Leo's who did the investigation that they obviously don't know anything about police work or procedures..
You could take it right up to the judge..
I bet you can get this cleared right up without a trial.
So get going.

Why would I show anything to anyone? The DA obviously knows more than anyone, so there's no need for a trial at all.

 

[jaeger19]

Why would I show anything to anyone? The DA obviously knows more than anyone, so there's no need for a trial at all.

Ohhhj. No..you made it clear that you know more. You made it clear that anyone who thought this wasn't a good shoot clearly didn't understand the law and police actions and procedures.
So you need to run down there and clear this up..should take less than a couple of hours with all your evidence..
So get to it.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Ohhhj. No..you made it clear that you know more. You made it clear that anyone who thought this wasn't a good shoot clearly didn't understand the law and police actions and procedures.
So you need to run down there and clear this up..should take less than a couple of hours with all your evidence..
So get to it.

And you made it clear the DA knows more. If that's so, we needn't bother with the expense and uncertainty of a trial.

 

[jaeger19]

And you made it clear the DA knows more. If that's so, we needn't bother with the expense and uncertainty of a trial.

Oh no. You made it clear that anyone who thought this was a bad shoot clearly didn't know the law or police procedures and actions.
So get on that high horse of yours..and trot there to clear this up.

Or..you could do the decent thing and acknowledge that your insults to people who thought this didn't look like a good shoot were unjustified.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Or..you could do the decent thing and acknowledge that your insults to people who thought this didn't look like a good shoot were unjustified.

But I'm not a liar, so I won't.

 

[justabubba]

You're probably right. Why even bother with a trial?

prosecuter is already making public proclamations that the cop did not act in self defense
bet the jury pool will be aware of that
nothing like a fair trial to demonstrate American exceptionalism

 

[jaeger19]

But I'm not a liar, so I won't.

Well then...be sure to run and tell the da and investigative officers in this case..that you know the law and procedures better than they do.
Hustle up now..

 

[jaeger19]

prosecuter is already making public proclamations that the cop did not act in self defense
bet the jury pool will be aware of that
nothing like a fair trial to demonstrate American exceptionalism

If it was clear cut self defense it would go before a judge and be dismissed.
You are making something out of nothing.

 

[Taylor]

Great call by the prosecutor. Had the victim been climbing through a window and not seen the officer, I could see the need to shoot someone in the head - but all we have here is someone physically fighting with an officer and trying to take his taser.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Well then...be sure to run and tell the da and investigative officers in this case..that you know the law and procedures better than they do.
Hustle up now..

Just like I should have with Rittenhouse's prosecutors, and all those other people found not guilty even though the all-knowing DA decided to prosecute.

 

[jaeger19]

Just like I should have with Rittenhouse's prosecutors, and all those other people found not guilty even though the all-knowing DA decided to prosecute.

Sure like chauvin..
But now go hustle up and tell the da they don't know the law.