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ludahai said:How about proving Koppel is a crackpot before making a sweeping generalization of what he wrote. What, YOU can accuse people of being a crackpot with no evidence, but we have to prove point by point Moore is a liar? Sorry, works both ways my friend!
SixStringHero said:Go here. It's quite a lenghty read, but if you can read all this and still believe everything that Moore says to be the truth then I guess ignorance is bliss.
http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm
I'm sure some will say this is all biased so it has no credibility, but that's just the cowards way out. Even if something is biased that doesn't change the facts, and no one, other than Moore, is stupid enough to try to get away with it again.
cnredd said:You are going to need to read the top of the e-mail page again...
Sometimes Moore's fan are derided as "Moore-ons" for their uncritical, and nearly hysterical devotion to their hero. Some of the letter-writers do fit this category--but many do not.
The e-mail you posted is one of the ones that fit this catagory....I like how you had to go down to the 9th letter on the page to pick it out...
I noticed how you didn't say ONE WORD about any of the deceits found...The ones that have sources provided for every one of them....
ban.the.electoral.college said:Insults will not help your argument. They only make you look less intelligent.
Napoleon's Nightingale said:I believe it because it's true. Poorer people might be more inclined to join the army but it doesn't make them targeted. Thats like saying that because you need water the tap is "targetting" you. Oh and by the way the link you keep posting doesn't link to the actual articles you're citing..it links to a lefty blog site with links to the articles which don't work! Haha
cnredd said:Do you have any intention of fully reading the page that you yourself used as a source?
The "Moore-on" sentence is taken verbatim from that page...I didn't insult anyone...If you find the term "Moore-on" insulting, I suggest you write an e-mail to the author of the page; not me.
SixStringHero said:I feel sorry for the people who actually take Moore's "documentary" as gospel. It has been proven by many sources that Moore's film is rife with inaccuracies, false-hoods, deceits and flat-out lies. Worse yet, Moore never uses much facts in the first place. He relys on conjecture and speculation to prove most of his points. Still with that said, it doesn't change the fact that there are some 59 odd lies and deceits in his movie.
Ludahai, of all things to bring up about Moore the Panatagraph is small apples compared to the rest of his duplicity. You should of brought up the Unocal oil pipeline. Moore claims that Bush and co. had plans to build and oil pipe-line thorough Afghanistan, but the reality of it was this plan was abandoned during Clinton's administration. Of course, you won't hear that omited detail from Moore.
There's another clip where Bush is giving a speech. Moore clearly implicates that this gathering taking place is rich coporate execs. Bush then says something to the effect (not verbatim) "Some people call you the 'haves,' I like to call you my BASE." What Moore doesn't tell us is that this is a fundraiser for a Children's Hospital and when the camera pulls out further, Al Gore is sitting right next to him. Of course that latter part isn't in Moore's film, that's actually a counter-point in the film F HYPE 9/11.
If you people want to really believe that this "documentary" was full of valid facts and empirical evidence then you really aren't that interested in the truth and only want to have your beliefs that much more gounded in this fantasy world that doesn't exist.
Watch F HYPE 9/11. I did both. I watched F 9/11 and F HYPE 9/11 in the same week. After watching F HYPE and doing more research it is beyond a reasonable doubt that Moore is full of ****.
Go here. It's quite a lenghty read, but if you can read all this and still believe everything that Moore says to be the truth then I guess ignorance is bliss.
http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm
I'm sure some will say this is all biased so it has no credibility, but that's just the cowards way out. Even if something is biased that doesn't change the facts, and no one, other than Moore, is stupid enough to try to get away with it again.
Middleground said:Jeepers creepers, is Dave Kopel all ya got?
It's not the coward's way out. I've explained in full why I think the guy is a crackpot. Pull out some of his "facts," and I'd be moore ('scuse the pun) than happy to debate.
ban.the.electoral.college said:Let me tell you why Michael Moore is a hero. He get's people talking. If you want to obsess over the bias of the movie, then by all means, go ahead and spin your wheels. But the fact is, this movie was a great success. Even if the whole documentary was a lie, his point was still made. And that is americans are asleep at the wheel. So to shake things up, and to get us to step outside of our bubble's he produced an artfully crafted piece of political propaganda. Was everthing he said true? No. Was everything he said false? No. But, we are talking about it. Debating it. Thinking about it. So, in the end he wins. He stirred the people to think, and to question their political realities. That's why Michael Moore is a hero. And I'll say it again, just to annoy the hell out of you. Michael Moore is hero, more than you could ever hope to be.
SixStringHero said:You just admitted yourself then that Moore did in fact lie. A few pages ago you made the assertion that people just didn't want to accept the truth of his film. You probably assume I'm a conservative because I have take issue with Moore. I'm not. I'm not a fan of republicans, democrats, liberals, conservatives, Greens and what have you. I take issue with all parties ideologies, and at the same time each party has it's good points as well but I align myself with none of them.
Moore is not a hero. If even half of his documentary ended up being factual then I would be singing his praises for exposing this adminstration of their corrpution. He mentions Haliburton but never mentions Clinton gave no bid contracts to them back in the Balkans. He mentions the Karlye Group but neglects to name any prominent democrats that are also affiliated with the group. I hate to break it to you, but democrats are rolling in the money just as much as republicans are.
I use to repsect Moore, especially after I watched Colombine. Now, I'm not in favor of gun-control ie (banning fire-arms) but he raised some valid points. It wasn't until after I watched F 9/11 that I learned of his cut and paste hatchet job sytle. There are even sites out there that expose Colombine of the same tricks. That being said, Colombine came off as a more intelligent, thought provoking, objective and articulate film than the aforementioned F 9/11 where Moore comes off like a condescending ass.
SixStringHero said:I compel you to watch F HYPE 9/11 (which I'm assuming you haven't seen yet) I'm not much for playing internet detective, but I'm sure I could dig up more if you want. Dave Kopel's site is one of the more comprehensive ones out there. Look into the site tha GYT posted a link to as well. That gives some good information.
And just for the record I'm not a republican, conservative, democrat or liberal. I just want the truth and I don't appreciate being lied to in a "documentary" which is rife with fallacies.
Middleground said:As for Kopel's being the most comprehensive, well, I think it may be because it's a bunch of crap spewed by someone with an agenda. Though I admit that I didn't read it all, I didn't need to. You seem familiar with the site, so maybe you can point out some "smoking guns" that were oblivious to me.
ban.the.electoral.college said:just clik the hypertext. it works for me.
recruiters have quotas they must meet. so where do they turn, when they need a boost hit their goals? they go to poorville. if that's no targeting, then I don't know what is.
As for that tap-water analogy, it just doesn't work. You can not compare something that your body requires, an unethical social behavior.
Napoleon's Nightingale said:Acctually it does. You could just as easily have gone to a friends to get a drink, sucked on some ice, or bought some bottled water. Just as poorer people could get student loans, or work at a resteraunt, or do any number of things. The point is choice. They choose on their own whether or not they want to join the forces. They're not a targeted group. There's no plot in the military to get people in the slums to join. Poor people join the military because they might think it a good thing. The military doesn't sign their contracts. There no more recruiters at poor public schools than at rich public schools. Recruiters do not go more often to either of them..they're assigned to go on the same day for about a week to both schools.
ban.the.electoral.college said:No, the poor do these things because because they are desperate. If you had a choice to be live a life of immorality on the street, or to have all of your needs taken care of, yet to do this, it meant you may possibly be asked to give your life, what would you do? What choice is it, if you have no other options? And that is a load of BS to say that recruiters do not prey on those kinds of people, because they do. The military is primarily composed of the working class, and the poverty stricken. They are only one's willing to give up their lives for benefits the wealthy do not need. Socially, and psychologically, it makes perfect sense. Who else would do such a thing? And who else would take advantage of such a situation?
Napoleon's Nightingale said:As I said, the military doesn't sign the contractsAnd no, those aren't the only two choices for poor people. I named just a few. There are MANY other options. Are you sudgesting that somehow military recruiters make it so that poor people can't think for themselves? Its not a load of BS. Go to a recruitment center and ask what days they are assigned to go out and where. I'll guarentee you it's every public school rich and poor school. Equall time at each. Why don't you provide sources and evidence of this and please nothing from a blog site and something more meaty than "oh well more poor people join so the military must be brainwashing them"
ban.the.electoral.college said:I am merely saying that poverty begets desperation. And that recruiters thrive on the impoverished by waving a carrot in front of their faces. It's a fact that the military is primarily made up of the working class. And If what you guarentee is true, then yes, the poor are going to be the primary targets, because there are many more poor schools than rich. Obviously, I do not need a source to back me up on that.
Napoleon's Nightingale said:Is it more likely that poor people will join? Yes. But the recruiters spout the same propoganda everywhere. You said it yourself...it's not targeting it's desperation on the part of the recruitees.
ban.the.electoral.college said:And you condone this?
Napoleon's Nightingale said:They can spout all the propaganda they want as far as I'm concerned and if you're too stupid to read the contract before you sign it then you deserve to be taken advantage of.
ban.the.electoral.college said:That attitude is why we allow Bush to murder our own citizens in the name of profit. I am ashamed to be the one to let you know. I hope you don't really mean what you say.
Napoleon's Nightingale said:I do mean what I say. If you're too stupid to read a contract basically pertaining to your life and what you'll be doing with it for the next few years then you deserve to be taken advantage of. You don't go to a car dealer or a bank and sign a contract without reading it first let alone a contract pertaining to YOUR LIFE. If you're too much of an imbecil to sign without reading then you have no position to whine about not knowing what you were getting into.
ban.the.electoral.college said:Rudely, stated. However, you are entitled to that. Brings a certain quote I read recently to mind, "No man is completely worthless. He can always serve as a bad example".
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