Me Too Movement (2 Viewers)

[Cephus]

But sexual assault is not physical assault :roll:

According to the Department of Justice it is. They define sexual assault as "Sexual assault is any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient. Falling under the definition of sexual assault are sexual activities as forced sexual intercourse, forcible sodomy, child molestation, incest, fondling, and attempted rape."

There is no such thing as non-physical sexual assault.

 

[Brochacholomigo]

? :spam:

It just felt like a good sentiment for the situation - libertarian belief, distilled (arguably diluted) down into unintelligible belligerence. It just feels right for a conversation about being unable to empathize with people that want to let abusers keep abusing, whatever form said abusers take.

 

[Lursa]

Sounds like you're saying that it is better to victimize the innocently accused with no proof rather than having legitimately abused women and children have no voice. In other words, you're just trading one set of innocent victims for another. We still live in a country where it is presumed you are innocent until proven guilty and this MeToo movement usurps that. You are now guilty without even a trial until proven innocent.

I said "suppressing." We have now created a much more supportive environment for women (or abused men) to come forward. Even if they have no 'proof.' How often is there 'proof' in a 'he said/she said?' And yet we've found...with investigation, often more victims or witnesses or other evidence.

 

[Grand Mal]

And there we have it -- women are weaker and can't handle themselves.

The suffragettes must literally be rolling in their graves.

Okay, which is it. Are you denying that women are vulnerable to abuse or denying there is abuse? Because as much as you want to create an alternate reality where women are never victimized, where there's implicit consent because the resistance wasn't strong enough to prevent the abuse, much as you want that to be the case the fact is that the strong prey on the vulnerable, unless there's consequences. There's consequences now, because of the movement, where there were no consequences before the movement. Not enough consequences, anyway.
It's working. Like it or not. I wonder why you object to it? Is it just that it's getting a lot of attention and there's no way for it to benefit you so it's a waste of efforts?

 

[Indian Giver]

If it's a throwback to Salem it's the witches protesting. Getting together because they're vulnerable when they're alone.

You are calling these women witches?

 

[Grand Mal]

You are calling these women witches?

Yeah, that's it. That's what I meant.
You win, you take the cake.

 

[Lursa]

A movement to bully men.

Really? How would you bring to attention this systemic and entrenched sexual harassment and abuse? And how would you go about stopping it?

What is your method?

 

[camlok]

So women had an even power structure and were unfairly fired and punished so the movement is intended to reverse roles and have men become unfairly fired and punished?

Here is a comment from a feminist:



Feminist Emily Lindin Doesn't Care if Men Lose their Jobs over False Allegations - Victory Girls Blog

Does this mean that you aren't interested in nuancing these issues, Bucky?

 

[Lursa]

The movement seeks to drive a wedge between the genders and portray every man as a possible predator and every woman as a possible victim. It is unhealthy, unproductive, and divisive. it fosters an environment of hostility rather than trust.

Are you denying that women (and some men) have been being sexually harassed and abused for centuries? And if you are not denying it...do you believe it should continue?

If you dont believe it should continue...how do we stop it?

 

[Lursa]

Larry Nassar could have been stopped if the gymnasts had reported him right away. I seriously doubt that USA Gymnastics would have kept him on as a doctor if they had. Why did they wait?

Because they were afraid and thought they were the only ones.

Now, because of the MeToo movement, many more girls and women know they have a safer, more supportive environment to 'come out' in.

Good example, thank you.

 

[Fearandloathing]

Of course I support the actual movement. Anybody that doesn't probably has real issues or is a predator themselves.

Now with that being said, OF COURSE there are going to be INDIVIDUALS that tarnish or try to tarnish the movement and pollute with other things or false accusations that attempt to water it down but the movement still stands strong.

Normal people against > sexual predators

There will also be faulty memories, mistakes and some that get damaged unintentionally, but to assume that there will be a preponderance of false accusations or attempts to smear are misplaced in this debate.

Faulty memories and mistakes I can accept against the backdrop of the culture of silence that has kept these victims silent for so long.

You know the right talk about 'law and order' and "justice", wear it like a flag. And, even here are the first to cast doubt, raise the issue of bad faith claims.

As a male I am ashamed. This is 2018, not 1958, and this **** should have ended long ago.

As parent of two daughters I am angered that they have to face what I tried to help stop 50 years ago.

The American right likes to tout "law and order", many are proud of capital punishment for murder. However, in the crime of murder, the victim suffers no more, it's the family's need for revenge we are feeding. However in rape, sexual assault, or any sex crime, the victim lives with the results all their lives. Many turn to drink, many more turn to drugs, and studies have shown that women in the sex trade, from stripping to screwing, are 93% likely to have been sexually mistreated in their childhood. 93%.

Maybe if we started applying capital punishment to rapists we'd see change.

When I think of my daughters, I'd like do the job myself.

 

[Lursa]

The only problem I see coming is the one day when someone stands up and 'calls out' (accuses really) someone who didn't do it, and then that person basically has their lives destroyed overnight.

Kinda thought that we were a nation of laws and courts that decided these things.

Yes...women are very familiar with that. Except that they had to stay quiet about it and allow it or quit/leave. Now they can come forward for justice.

 

[camlok]

Too much of Me Too is band wagon hopping, exaggeration, posturing, attention seeking, virtue signalling or a combination of some or all of these. (This is btw my wife's opinion. I'm too timid to comment).

Or it's a serious social movement to correct serious faults within society and it attracts the attention of right wing individuals who infiltrate to sow discord and false memes. Hell, even groups like the Quakers get attention from US far right organizations like the CIA/FBI.

 

[Lursa]

:roll:

It's not about portraying anything.

Have you any clue how many females (not just women) have been victims?

How many were shamed into keeping quiet? How many were ignored? How many were silenced through various methods?
How many were outright told it was "their fault"?

This whole this is about empowering females to NOT be victims, because crap-tons of them have been victims.
To ignore that is dangerous and ignorant.

It is endemic in our society...but men have just contentedly accepted it as an entitlement...and dismissed the damage it does, the distrust it engenders.

I dont think men realize that women have always put up with this crap, just a part of life.

Many....most?....of us had relatives, neighbors, friends of parents, brothers of friends, that you would just 'avoid' being alone with. Because they had come on to you, touched you, kept "bumping" into you and rubbing on you, etc etc etc. Maybe said stuff that was lewd or 'gross' (since we were often teens and that's how it came across).

It was...and sometimes is...just a part of life for women. So for the most part, we didnt report stuff like that. Even when it extended to co-workers. It was endemic, it happened to our girlfriends too, we'd share the stories. It wasnt reported because, again, it was almost the norm for women growing up. Mostly we just added it all up to alot of guys being assholes, being pigs. Where do you think men got such reputations?

So it's always been happening, it's only now that we've reached a tipping point where women are able to come forward.

 

[Waddy]

Really? How would you bring to attention this systemic and entrenched sexual harassment and abuse? And how would you go about stopping it?

What is your method?

Charge the offenders with a crime and take them to court. Have the women testify and make a case against them. Then send them to prison where they belong. That's called due process. It's what's happening right now to Bill Cosby. That's how it should be handled. How it shouldn't be handled is any man accused by any woman, no matter how long ago, no matter how weak the evidence, gets tried in the Kangaroo court of public opinion, which can and does destroy innocent people every day it seems now. Just making an accusation shouldn't be enough to ruin a man. It isn't fair, and it isn't right. It's the modern version of a lynch mob.

 

[Lursa]

You just expressed what's wrong with the Me Too movement. They feel "vulnerable when they're alone." That's been my point all along. The idea that women are somehow weaker and unable to stick up for themselves. Keep it up -- you'll get them back under those burqas after all.

When a man has power over a woman...like in a school or job...they make sure the woman IS alone. And then what evidence is there? Unless women come forward? And you and others are saying that just her word isnt enough. :doh

 

[eohrnberger]

Yes...women are very familiar with that. Except that they had to stay quiet about it and allow it or quit/leave. Now they can come forward for justice.

And I agree. Women shouldn't have their lives destroyed any more so than any innocent person.

 

[Lursa]

And there we have it -- women are weaker and can't handle themselves.

The suffragettes must literally be rolling in their graves.

Are you saying they arent physically weaker in general?

And while we do recommend that women train and be able to defend themselves, more is needed to offset disparity of force.

And weapons of any kind are generally prohibited in work environments: is a woman going to have a knife or pepper spray in her pocket around the office? DOES SHE NEED TO?

 

[Lursa]

And I agree. Women shouldn't have their lives destroyed any more so than any innocent person.

So now they are stepping up to stop it.

 

[Lursa]

The Me Too movement is all about women getting together and telling about things that may or may not have happened years ago that they failed to report at the time. Huge difference.

No. The goal of MeToo is TO PREVENT sexual harassment/abuse. To STOP it. It's obvious that this is a PATTERN of behavior for some men, as woman after woman comes forward. NOW women can come forward sooner and STOP that pattern IF people will believe them. Save more women from that.

Now women know they have a supportive environment to report it. Do you think they should allow previous activity to go unpunished? What other crimes do you apply that to?

 

[eohrnberger]

So now they are stepping up to stop it.

And that's fine too. Just be sure that no one innocent is accused, if you are taking on the role judge, jury, and executioner.
I kinda thought that we had courts and a legal system for that.

 

[Lursa]

Charge the offenders with a crime and take them to court. Have the women testify and make a case against them. Then send them to prison where they belong. That's called due process. It's what's happening right now to Bill Cosby. That's how it should be handled. How it shouldn't be handled is any man accused by any woman, no matter how long ago, no matter how weak the evidence, gets tried in the Kangaroo court of public opinion, which can and does destroy innocent people every day it seems now. Just making an accusation shouldn't be enough to ruin a man. It isn't fair, and it isn't right. It's the modern version of a lynch mob.

That's what's happening.

Are you saying that the accusations should be confidential and private?

 

[Lursa]

And that's fine too. Just be sure that no one innocent is accused, if you are taking on the role judge, jury, and executioner.
I kinda thought that we had courts and a legal system for that.

We do. Which sexual predators in the media recently have been arrested and charged without due process?

 

[Fiddytree]

I'm fine with it and generally supportive, but I don't wake up every day looking to see who gets their comeuppance and I am not really a fan of people picking fights about who is properly supportive of this group of people vs that group of people.

 

[Fiddytree]

The cons of the movement are that there are a lot of schools of feminism right now, and some of them very strongly disagree with one another. This is actually both a pro and a con at the same time. I think the Aziz Ansari incident was probably the best example of the real clash of worldviews between even feminists on what the movement should be trying to stop. The thing that was most interesting, to my mind, about the Aziz Ansari incident is that there was a lot of disagreement over what consent is, what assault is, who has what obligation to do what, etc. I say this is a pro and a con because it's both. It's important that, as a society, we hash out these issues, which is the pro, but the con is that it starts seriously distracting from really unambiguous and grotesque cases of sexual assault.

Another negative aspect of the movement, which it picked up from the more fanatical elements of the "SJW" movement (for want of a better term), are these kinds of warped notions that come in varying intensities, like this an issue exclusively about women; that women should be the only ones speaking; men should shut up and listen; to confusing personal problems for systemic problems. There's an element to the SJW framework that has real problems with it, because a lot of it started off as very academic jargon and has now moved into conversations that are... not that. So I'm happy people are having conversations (and even more happy that very bad people's power is being destroyed), I just sort of wish we could unshackle ourselves from the more problematic aspects of modern SJW culture while embracing the part about advancing people's rights and challenging illegitimate, harmful institutions. But that's pretty much my only issue with the movement, or at least the other critiques are just derivations on this point (i.e. the people who insist that no one should at all be concerned with false accusations).

Pretty much this.