Man sues wife over abortion

[Ikari]

If my Mom aborted me obviously I wouldn't care, know or be debating you right now - would I?

Certainly not, but non-existence is boring. My PhD adviser was adopted as a kid. His birth parents (all he really knows about them) were high school students in CA. Now this was in the early 70's and there were still stringent laws against abortion. So he was put up for adoption instead. Claims to this day he's glad he was put up for adoption instead of being killed since he likes existing so much. Of course if he were aborted, he too wouldn't "care" since he would be dead and not existing. It's almost sadder to think about it in those terms, a child cheated out of even the experience to exist. So long as one is alive, there is always hope.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

This wasn't about her reproductive health. It was about her career. Says so right in the story.

If she'd been under any kind of unusual risk of death or grave bodily harm, I would not criticize her decision.

She put her career ahead of her unborn baby, ahead of her husband's strongly expressed wishes... and anybody is shocked that Hubby divorced her and tried to sue?

His hurt and anger is understandable - but so is her choice.

I wonder if they ever once talked about it - or if she was on birth control. . . they are married. Made me wonder if they were just planning on waiting.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

That's correct. Upon original sin by Adam and Eve, we belonged to Lucifer. Dying on the cross paid the price demanded of us by the law, and we were thus perchesed from Lucifer, by God, with Jesus's blood, and are now God's property.

Interesting. So abortion was ok prior to Jesus?

Man was created perfect and sinless. We ****ed it up.

Umm, sin is not inherited. G-d judges us on our own merits and iniquities.

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Ezekiel 18:20
​

I can not hear your Deconstructionist talking points.

Sticking your fingers in your ears does make what you believe any more legitimate.

 

[Jerry]

Interesting. So abortion was ok prior to Jesus?

Of course not.

Umm, sin is not inherited. G-d judges us on our own merits and iniquities.

A sinful nature is inherited.

Sticking your fingers in your ears does make what you believe any more legitimate.

Nor is it intended to. Deconstructionism is not to be taken seriously at any time. Simply ignored.

 

[mac]

That's an urban legend, not true at all. Some doctors ask for couples to go to pre-vasectomy counseling together, but her permission is not legally required.

What should I do to prepare for my vasectomy?

True, not legally. Many hospitals and doctors do refuse perform the procedure without the spouses permission though. Military hospitals, for example, require it...among other things.

 

[Bodi]

True, not legally. Many hospitals and doctors do refuse perform the procedure without the spouses permission though. Military hospitals, for example, require it...among other things.

Look at how you just backpeddled out of th... oh, you admitted your error and were honest about it. Sorry, shewolf had me covinced there for a second...

 

[mac]

Look at how you just backpeddled out of th... oh, you admitted your error and were honest about it. Sorry, shewolf had me covinced there for a second...

Thanks for pointing that out...almost missed it. Yeah, she's really got me pegged....

 

[Bodi]

Good post... I just want to add that the average women isn't a "bitch" about going after men for child support. I went to high school with more women whom do not get any type of child support whatsoever and for many reasons. The fact is, if a woman or female gets pregnant by a guy, and has sex without talking to him about parenting and children first, etc. she isn't gunhoe on making sure he is involved in raising that child. And we all know, a man can have a child and not know it. Liv Tyler's mother knew the singer from Aerosmith was Liv's father, but she never told him.. he didn't know until she was, I think 18.

My best friend tried to parent with the father. He didn't want to be involved though, and it really hurts my friend because he is rejecting her son and she feels really bad for her little boy. My friend still knows that it's no use, so she's accepted it. Maybe it's better her son doesn't grow up around an unloving father, right? His step dad is amazing, and I think having his step dad is better than having his real dad. Step dad puts food in his mouth, clothes him, reads him bedtime stories, teaches him to play sports and how tie his shoes, etc. etc. Step dad calls him his son, and he calls step dad his "daddy," and step dad does all of this without government force. Government attempting to force is sperm donor dad to do all of that instead, wouldn't have the same results. Likewise if government forced a woman to carry and care for a unborn baby for 9 months, I think all these pro lifers are being really ignorant if they think these women are going to take care of themselves, not smoke, not drink, not take any medication, not do any drugs, not eat shellfish, and try their ****ing hardest to make sure they have a healthy baby to give up for adoption to a family... because we all know people looking to adopt, don't want to adopt a sick or deformed baby.

As for the males complaining of sexist double standards, the government doesn't automatically force males to be responsible as it is, but the men in thread would have you thinking otherwise. Unless the female actually goes to court and puts up a fight, the government doesn't automatically get involved to make him pay child support, and most males don't fight for more responsibility in situations where the female doesn't drag him into court. We sit here and call woman nasty names for having an abortion, but we don't say much about these guys not fighting for their children or stepping up to the plate and failing to drag mommy into family court. That's because, for some damn reason, we know the government can't force men to be successful caretakers of their own offspring... but yet, some think the government can force a female to have a proper attitude, step to the plate, and change her lifestyle for 9 months whilst she reproduces a child she's not interested in nor wants any involvement with. If a female doesn't have the proper attitude, the government can force it or create it. I know it sounds harsh, but its the damn truth. Make a little child live with a neglectful parent for 9 months and see what kind of results you get. That's exactly what pro lifers are asking for.

Most women go get the backing of the court.

I knew of a married woman who tricked her husband and got pregnant on purpose.
I knew an unmarried woman who got pregnant on purpose, tricked the guy knowing all along she wanted to have and raise a child by herself without the man. She promptly went to Court and got child support from him.

...and there are double standards. It is not like we are just making **** up.

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

Interesting. So abortion was ok prior to Jesus?

Of course not.

Why not? You said we belonged to Lucifer.

A sinful nature is inherited.

If that is true, why did it take thousands of years for man to invent the notion of original sin? From the time of Adam, all the way until Jesus, it was never mentioned.

Nor is it intended to. Deconstructionism is not to be taken seriously at any time. Simply ignored.

 

[DiAnna]

His hurt and anger is understandable - but so is her choice.

I wonder if they ever once talked about it - or if she was on birth control. . . they are married. Made me wonder if they were just planning on waiting.

I wonder if they were in an arranged marriage. They're still quite common in China, and would explain a lot about their dysfunctional relationship.

 

[nota bene]

I wonder if they were in an arranged marriage. They're still quite common in China, and would explain a lot about their dysfunctional relationship.

Hmm, that's a good question. I haven't read all 19 pages here, but every time I've read the subject line, I 've thought, "You know, if this man is suing his wife over a child-issue, this marriage has problems larger than kids."

 

[SheWolf]

Certainly not, but non-existence is boring. My PhD adviser was adopted as a kid. His birth parents (all he really knows about them) were high school students in CA. Now this was in the early 70's and there were still stringent laws against abortion. So he was put up for adoption instead. Claims to this day he's glad he was put up for adoption instead of being killed since he likes existing so much. Of course if he were aborted, he too wouldn't "care" since he would be dead and not existing. It's almost sadder to think about it in those terms, a child cheated out of even the experience to exist. So long as one is alive, there is always hope.

It's the old golden rule argument, and I have considered it. The thought of me not being born, is not negative to me in anyway. I am fine with myself being aborted. I don't think I am entitled to my mother's body or my mother's resources in anyway. I see my mother and the way she raised me as a blessing, not an entitlement. I could have very well been born into a much worse situation, but I am alive right now to know that I have an amazing mother, and if I was conceived under different circumstances and my mother wanted to abort me to better herself and her life, I'd be absolutely and completely fine with that. I believe that my own mother, of all women, deserves to be happy in life and not emotionally or physically suffer against her will for the sake of bringing me into this world. I also trust my mother, as I trust all women to make the personal decision to have an abortion or not.

I don't consider life to be either a gift nor an entitlement. If I said life was a gift, that would be really naive. Many people, including children, have short and tragic lives. A life of suffering and pain, isn't worth enduring IMO.

 

[Ikari]

I don't consider life to be either a gift nor an entitlement. If I said life was a gift, that would be really naive. Many people, including children, have short and tragic lives. A life of suffering and pain, isn't worth enduring IMO.

It may not be a "gift" or "entitlement", but it sure as hell is pretty ****ing sweet.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

I wonder if they were in an arranged marriage. They're still quite common in China, and would explain a lot about their dysfunctional relationship.

Yeah - so many unknowns in this situation it sort of hampers debate.

 

[SheWolf]

This wasn't about her reproductive health. It was about her career. Says so right in the story.

If she'd been under any kind of unusual risk of death or grave bodily harm, I would not criticize her decision.

She put her career ahead of her unborn baby, ahead of her husband's strongly expressed wishes... and anybody is shocked that Hubby divorced her and tried to sue?

The traditional male role is to put his career and finances over taking care of and spending time with his children. Men spend the money to raise the kids. Women spend the time to raise the kids.

I will never think that a woman is a bad person just because she chooses financial independence over having children.... children are expensive. Many women WANT to have financial freedom and not be dependent on men for support. Financial security and independence are essential to so many people, especially in really bad economy like right now.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Well - I certainly am putting my career and education in front of having [more] children. . . interesting to see that some people feel I shouldn't even bother trying to further myself as an individual at all.

 

[Ikari]

Well - I certainly am putting my career and education in front of having [more] children. . . interesting to see that some people feel I shouldn't even bother trying to further myself as an individual at all.

That's an interesting conclusion which I do not believe could be supported by measurement.

 

[SheWolf]

It may not be a "gift" or "entitlement", but it sure as hell is pretty ****ing sweet.

Sometimes and on somedays it's sweet...

I have a kind of weird POV, because I died when I was a small kid but was revived. I knew that I died, but it didn't scare me at the time. Now that I am older, death is so much harder to deal with and live around. Watching people die is so much harder, and the fact that I died, it bothers me more now that I understand it all. I have heard of other children, living with terminal illness and dying... and they are so brave in death. I can really identify with that on some level, but I don't have the same mentality about death anymore or about some of the health issues I have. I think dying as a zygote or as an embryo is the easiest death that there is.

 

[Free For All]

I will never think that a woman is a bad person just because she chooses financial independence over having children.... children are expensive. Many women WANT to have financial freedom and not be dependent on men for support. Financial security and independence are essential to so many people, especially in really bad economy like right now.

As for me if I knew a woman who killed a child for financial independence I would look down upon her. That's some messed up ****.
Financial security and independence mean a lot to me but not to an extent I would do such a thing. And yeah I was raised by a family who barely got by every month and I'm sure as hell glad they didn't deprive me of this thing called 'life'. Now I did have both my parents. But the woman will learn how to adapt and survive.

 

[Ikari]

Sometimes and on somedays it's sweet...

I have a kind of weird POV, because I died when I was a small kid but was revived. I knew that I died, but it didn't scare me at the time. Now that I am older, death is so much harder to deal with and live around. Watching people die is so much harder, and the fact that I died, it bothers me more now that I understand it all. I have heard of other children, living with terminal illness and dying... and they are so brave in death. I can really identify with that on some level, but I don't have the same mentality about death anymore or about some of the health issues I have. I think dying as a zygote or as an embryo is the easiest death that there is.

Death is always hard to deal with. I've buried my fair share of friends and family at this point. It's a natural reaction, not many mentally stable and healthy people want to actually die. We want to preserve life as much as possible. All men die.

Dying before cognition may be the "easiest", but then you don't even get to experience life. I wonder how many of those terminal kids facing death so bravely are glad to have at least had a short shot at life.

 

[SheWolf]

Most women go get the backing of the court.

I knew of a married woman who tricked her husband and got pregnant on purpose.
I knew an unmarried woman who got pregnant on purpose, tricked the guy knowing all along she wanted to have and raise a child by herself without the man. She promptly went to Court and got child support from him.

...and there are double standards. It is not like we are just making **** up.

And then you have women who don't go to court, despite needing the money, they don't go because they don't want the father around the child. I know a woman in that situation. She won't take the father of her baby to court for child support, despite needing the money, because she's afraid he'll be rewarded with custody or visitation rights. And the fact is, she should be worried. He was a good dad until he started drinking, then he got abusive towards her. She left him, and then he beat his live in girlfriend so hard with heavy duty Maglite, he thought he killed her. She was unconscious and bleeding on the floor a full night. He has prison record now, but because she didn't die while he waited for trail... the charges were downgraded to assault with a weapon or something like that

Men are not the only victims. The family court system is far from perfect, and it's been known to fail children from time to time and put children is bad situations.

I once knew a women and her husband was awarded with shared custody, despite he had child porn on his computer. His lawyer argued that despite child porn being on his computer, it couldn't be proven that he actually downloaded it... and that's exactly why people like my friend are scared to go to the court, despite honestly needing the money to better provide for her child. So there you have it.

Sometimes women get hurt, sometimes men get hurt, and sometimes even the kids get hurt. It's not a perfect system, and men are not the only one's to get burned by the system.

 

[Jerry]

Why not? You said we belonged to Lucifer.

As Lucifer falls under God's law, anything, or anyone, falling under Lucifer therefore also fall under God's Law.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

If he convinced her to carry the baby - she would have been miserable / postponed her career / etc.

There is something very, very, very sick about a mother deciding that her “career”*is more important than the life of her own child. And it is no less sick to defend such a choice as being in any way reasonable.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

There is something very, very, very sick about a mother deciding that her “career”*is more important than the life of her own child. And it is no less sick to defend such a choice as being in any way reasonable.

What about fathers? Why is it sick for Mom's NOT to give up their careers - but Dad's are socially obligated to work regardless automatically relying on the woman to do everything else. And that's ok? That's not remotely 'sick' as you put it?

Would you give up your education or career to have a child if you didn't want to have kids?

No doubt - concerning Li in the OP: if she WANTED to have kids I'm sure she would have done differently. . . I wish we knew if he offered to BE a Stay at home Dad at all instead of just defaulting to the belief that she - and only she - should choose one over the other.

My husband and I discussed *wanting* to have more kids but *who* would have to make sacrifices to be at home with the kids never crossed our minds or lips. I assumed that since I was employed and so was he that we'd keep working. He assumed I'd be a Stay at Home Mom . . . in his effort to convince me to be a Stay at Home Mom (again in my life - I was one before) he ended up offending me so deeply with his reasoning for it that it's shaped my views towards my education and future employment: I have to be better than him - I have to earn more money - until I do - I'm worthless and wasting my time. Maybe he'd take back some o the things he said in the process of convincing me if he could - I don't know. But it's the drive for me to never do ti again, that's for sure. He made me feel like a disgusting waste of flesh - merely a host for his child and free childcare and nothing more. I was depressed for years - I had to go to therapy for Christs sake - geesh.

And he had the gall to wonder why I was so unhappy with it - it wasn't "taking care of the kids" aspect - it was the loss of everything else and the awareness of how he thought of me every day.

To give him credit: I'm sure he doesn't think of me like that *all the time* - but in his desperate attempt to convince me to be a Stay at Home Mom he crossed the line with his logic and reasoning. Some things are best left *alone.* We were separated for a while over it, even.

 

[cpwill]

What about fathers? Why is it sick for Mom's NOT to give up their careers - but Dad's are socially obligated to work regardless automatically relying on the woman to do everything else. And that's ok? That's not remotely 'sick' as you put it?

:shrug: well, it's how people are generally built. different folks will exist on different portions of the spectrum, but generally women will be more amenable to this and be better at it, whereas men will generally be more amenable to working. This isn't a "social construct" (though society can choose to reinforce or try to attack it), but rather a division of labor that we have evolved into over millenia. you can't change 500,000 years of natural selection by burning your bras for a decade.

Would you give up your education or career to have a child if you didn't want to have kids?

no, but this is a past tense question, not a future tense one.

No doubt - concerning Li in the OP: if she WANTED to have kids I'm sure she would have done differently. . . I wish we knew if he offered to BE a Stay at home Dad at all instead of just defaulting to the belief that she - and only she - should choose one over the other.

My husband and I discussed *wanting* to have more kids but *who* would have to make sacrifices to be at home with the kids never crossed our minds or lips. I assumed that since I was employed and so was he that we'd keep working. He assumed I'd be a Stay at Home Mom . . . in his effort to convince me to be a Stay at Home Mom (again in my life - I was one before) he ended up offending me so deeply with his reasoning for it that it's shaped my views towards my education and future employment: I have to be better than him - I have to earn more money - until I do - I'm worthless and wasting my time. Maybe he'd take back some o the things he said in the process of convincing me if he could - I don't know. But it's the drive for me to never do ti again, that's for sure. He made me feel like a disgusting waste of flesh - merely a host for his child and free childcare and nothing more. I was depressed for years - I had to go to therapy for Christs sake - geesh.

And he had the gall to wonder why I was so unhappy with it - it wasn't "taking care of the kids" aspect - it was the loss of everything else and the awareness of how he thought of me every day.

To give him credit: I'm sure he doesn't think of me like that *all the time* - but in his desperate attempt to convince me to be a Stay at Home Mom he crossed the line with his logic and reasoning. Some things are best left *alone.* We were separated for a while over it, even.

well (and I mean this) I am truly sorry that you and your husband had such a rough experience with this. It sounds like it still hurts your relationship with him. but you say that you had already been a SAHM - and we can probably draw from your words that you did not enjoy it? why didn't you just drown the baby in the tub one day so you could go back to work?