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Man Made God vs. God Made Man

"Why do you think that? What leads you to think that?"

It's what makes sense to me. There's too much elegant order to life not to have something extraordinary guiding it. It's what I choose to believe knowing full well that just because I believe it doesn't make it true.

"Possibly being raised in a family and/or culture that promotes it heavily?"

Of course it does. How you are raised becomes your first look at the world and everything in it. But that is only a starting point.

Anyway, that's how I see it at this point in time.
 
HelpMe said:
"Why do you think that? What leads you to think that?"

It's what makes sense to me. There's too much elegant order to life not to have something extraordinary guiding it. It's what I choose to believe knowing full well that just because I believe it doesn't make it true.

"Possibly being raised in a family and/or culture that promotes it heavily?"

Of course it does. How you are raised becomes your first look at the world and everything in it. But that is only a starting point.

Anyway, that's how I see it at this point in time.
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What elegant order is that? How do you know it's not merely your confirmation bias?
 
HelpMe said:
It's what makes sense to me.
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Do you not see where that type of reasoning could lead you astray?

For many people, a long time ago, it made perfect sense that the thing they were living on was flat, and had edges that people fell off of when they went too far.

It makes sense that if these mushrooms are delicious, all mushrooms are delicious.

All the dogs I've ever been around have been sweet and loving, therefore I should never fear any dog anywhere.
 
Dragonfly said:
Do you not see where that type of reasoning could lead you astray?

For many people, a long time ago, it made perfect sense that the thing they were living on was flat, and had edges that people fell off of when they went too far.

It makes sense that if these mushrooms are delicious, all mushrooms are delicious.

All the dogs I've ever been around have been sweet and loving, therefore I should never fear any dog anywhere.
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So, the alternative is "something that doesn't make sense to me"...really?:roll:
 
RAMOSS said:
What elegant order is that? How do you know it's not merely your confirmation bias?
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It is the sunrise and sunset, the changing of the seasons, the phases of the moon and the fragrances of different flowers. It's seen in the strategy of predators and the skill of their prey. It's reflected in how birds build their nests, beavers build dams and spiders spin webs. That's what I see as elegant order. You may not. Bias is based on personal experience, so yes, bias colors the way you see life. However, bias changes as you change. It's your bias - you own it and can use it however you want.
 
Dragonfly said:
Do you not see where that type of reasoning could lead you astray?

For many people, a long time ago, it made perfect sense that the thing they were living on was flat, and had edges that people fell off of when they went too far.

It makes sense that if these mushrooms are delicious, all mushrooms are delicious.

All the dogs I've ever been around have been sweet and loving, therefore I should never fear any dog anywhere.
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As opposed to believing in what I would consider non-sense, such as God spoke to me and this is what he told me I should believe?

At one time it was accepted fact that the earth was flat. Now we know it isn't. The earth didn't change nor did we. What changed is our understanding of it. Same with all learning. Some mushrooms taste good, others don't and some are downright deadly. But that doesn't change the mushroom, what changes is our understanding of it. And, well, the dog that bites warns you first, so it will act differently than the sweet and loving dog that you are accustomed to. If you pay attention the actions of the dog, you might change the way to approach him. Or not. Either way you will learn something from it.
 
HelpMe said:
It is the sunrise and sunset, the changing of the seasons, the phases of the moon and the fragrances of different flowers. It's seen in the strategy of predators and the skill of their prey. It's reflected in how birds build their nests, beavers build dams and spiders spin webs. That's what I see as elegant order. You may not. Bias is based on personal experience, so yes, bias colors the way you see life. However, bias changes as you change. It's your bias - you own it and can use it however you want.
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And, how is that evidence of elegant order? 'Elegant order' somewhat subjective? Why should that be any evidence for a deity. How is that anything more that 'I want to believe in a deity'? Why would elegant order need a deity to exist?
 
RAMOSS said:
And, how is that evidence of elegant order? 'Elegant order' somewhat subjective? Why should that be any evidence for a deity. How is that anything more that 'I want to believe in a deity'? Why would elegant order need a deity to exist?
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That is the crux of my problem with believers. Why is never explained, other than saying such elegant order would need a god to create it. Why?
 
zyzygy said:
That is the crux of my problem with believers. Why is never explained, other than saying such elegant order would need a god to create it. Why?
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And, you never get an answer.
 
HelpMe said:
As opposed to believing in what I would consider non-sense, such as God spoke to me and this is what he told me I should believe?
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Why would that be non-sense if it's what you believed actually happened?

There's many people out there very much convinced that "god spoke" to them.
 
HelpMe said:
It is the sunrise and sunset, the changing of the seasons, the phases of the moon and the fragrances of different flowers. It's seen in the strategy of predators and the skill of their prey. It's reflected in how birds build their nests, beavers build dams and spiders spin webs. That's what I see as elegant order. You may not. Bias is based on personal experience, so yes, bias colors the way you see life. However, bias changes as you change. It's your bias - you own it and can use it however you want.
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Tell me (or us), do you have an example of a universe in which there is no "elegant order" so we can compare what's happening around us to what it might have been otherwise?
 
HelpMe said:
It is the sunrise and sunset, the changing of the seasons, the phases of the moon and the fragrances of different flowers. It's seen in the strategy of predators and the skill of their prey. It's reflected in how birds build their nests, beavers build dams and spiders spin webs. That's what I see as elegant order. You may not. Bias is based on personal experience, so yes, bias colors the way you see life. However, bias changes as you change. It's your bias - you own it and can use it however you want.
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What would classical chaos, which lurks everywhere in our world, do to quantum mechanics, the theory describing the atomic and subatomic worlds

Quantum Chaos - Scientific American
 
RAMOSS said:
And, how is that evidence of elegant order? 'Elegant order' somewhat subjective? Why should that be any evidence for a deity. How is that anything more that 'I want to believe in a deity'? Why would elegant order need a deity to exist?
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Do you not see an elegant order to life? If not, what do you see? If so, why can't it be attributed it to God? What would you call it? My beliefs don't matter one iota. What exists does so whether I believe in its existence or not.
 
Dragonfly said:
Why would that be non-sense if it's what you believed actually happened?

There's many people out there very much convinced that "god spoke" to them.
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Anything is possible, but not probable.
 
Dragonfly said:
Tell me (or us), do you have an example of a universe in which there is no "elegant order" so we can compare what's happening around us to what it might have been otherwise?
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No. Do you?
 
HelpMe said:
Do you not see an elegant order to life? If not, what do you see? If so, why can't it be attributed it to God? What would you call it? My beliefs don't matter one iota. What exists does so whether I believe in its existence or not.
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No, I don't. I also don't see why any you do see has to be attributed to god if this so called 'elegant order' actually existed. It looks to be an emotional response, rather than a reasoned one.
 
HelpMe said:
Do you not see an elegant order to life? If not, what do you see? If so, why can't it be attributed it to God? What would you call it? My beliefs don't matter one iota. What exists does so whether I believe in its existence or not.
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billions of years worth of random mutations under selection pressure for whatever can handle the world around it (non living and other life ) and reproduce seems like to would build some well functioning life. you can attribute things to a god but why should any one? if its unlikely for life to exist because of its nature then wouldn't something that can design it at will have even more unlikely nature?
 
NWO_Spook said:
I don't. I see the brutality of nature and how it is indiscriminate in its application.
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All things dull and ugly,
All creatures short and squat,
All things rude and nasty,
The Lord God made the lot.

Each little snake that poisons,
Each little wasp that stings,
He made their brutish venom.
He made their horrid wings.

All things sick and cancerous,
All evil great and small,
All things foul and dangerous,
The Lord God made them all.

Each nasty little hornet,
Each beastly little squid,
Who made the spikey urchin?
Who made the sharks? He did!

All things scabbed and ulcerous,
All pox both great and small,
Putrid, foul and gangrenous,
The Lord God made them all.

Amen.
 
HelpMe said:
You'll have to discuss THAT with someone who understands what THAT is. I don't have a clue!
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It concerns the lack of elegant order in the universe.
 
blarg said:
billions of years worth of random mutations under selection pressure for whatever can handle the world around it (non living and other life ) and reproduce seems like to would build some well functioning life. you can attribute things to a god but why should any one? if its unlikely for life to exist because of its nature then wouldn't something that can design it at will have even more unlikely nature?
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And who or what designed the god?
 
blarg said:
billions of years worth of random mutations under selection pressure for whatever can handle the world around it (non living and other life ) and reproduce seems like to would build some well functioning life. you can attribute things to a god but why should any one? if its unlikely for life to exist because of its nature then wouldn't something that can design it at will have even more unlikely nature?
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Darwinism is teleological, he agreed that there was some natural order

FULL ARTICLE:Can Darwinism Survive without Teleology? : Strange Notions
 
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