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Lursa said:
How important were their morals when they chose to have sex?

How come their morals only became important when they lost their gamble?

If their moral beliefs on the subject were that important to them, they would have avoided that risk. :mrgreen:
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You are talking about women now.....right?
 
year2late said:
Well, you are saying it is "child abuse"....you are clearly and emphatically sending that message.
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If they can afford it they should have as many kids as they want.
 
soylentgreen said:
It is also the subtle and not so subtle demonising of women that is wrong as well. That these men some how think that women are getting a free ride here. As if unexpectedly finding yourself pregnant and still deciding to have the child is not going to effect their lives. All that will happen is they get a free money from these poor hard working and completely blameless men. And then these men have the audacity to refer to themselves as being forced to be parents.
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The resentment that some men feel is apparent.

I have to agree that it would suck to be stuck with these payments if you didnt want a kid, but I would hope that both parents could act like adults in the best interests of the kid and both be part of the kid's life. Women get 'stuck' having kids all the time...it kind of blows me away that they do...I think alot just wait too long or that many just do not believe in abortion. Either way...they are also stuck. Men seem to think it's a simple decision. It's not.

But alot of men chafe at the idea of women having 'control' or 'power' over them...they've used those words many times. What is ridiculous is that in order to have sex, they are willing to risk that...but then STILL blame the women! Obviously, time & place, they place sex over consequences. THEY choose. But then they look for a way to blame women for their own choice.

I believe that some women probably do abuse the men and the $, but not most. Raising a kid is time and emotionally intensive. It's exhausting. It's scary and infuriating and exhilarating. By no means are women 'getting off easy' by getting enough money to make life for their family easier. It usually means juggling work and childcare. The non-custodial parent has none of that. They are not victims.
 
vegas giants said:
You are talking about women now.....right?
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Yup...and that's why they have their choices and may follow them.

See: equal! :mrgreen:

Thanks for agreeing.
 
Lursa said:
The resentment that some men feel is apparent.

I have to agree that it would suck to be stuck with these payments if you didnt want a kid, but I would hope that both parents could act like adults in the best interests of the kid and both be part of the kid's life. Women get 'stuck' having kids all the time...it kind of blows me away that they do...I think alot just wait too long or that many just do not believe in abortion. Either way...they are also stuck. Men seem to think it's a simple decision. It's not.

But alot of men chafe at the idea of women having 'control' or 'power' over them...they've used those words many times. What is ridiculous is that in order to have sex, they are willing to risk that...but then STILL blame the women! Obviously, time & place, they place sex over consequences. THEY choose. But then they look for a way to blame women for their own choice.

I believe that some women probably do abuse the men and the $, but not most. Raising a kid is time and emotionally intensive. It's exhausting. It's scary and infuriating and exhilarating. By no means are women 'getting off easy' by getting enough money to make life for their family easier. It usually means juggling work and childcare. The non-custodial parent has none of that. They are not victims.
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That's the bottom line for me too. If a man and woman choose to have sex, it is only right that both accept responsibility for any consequences of that. Just because she says she is protected from pregnancy or she won't hold him responsible does not ethically excuse the guy from the risk any more than him using protection that somehow fails. And the risk to her is much greater than his because she is the only one who can get pregnant.

So just because he found a warm place to put it--no matter how much they mutually agreed to have sex with no strings attached--he still is a participant in the pregnancy and he has an obligation no matter how much he doesn't want it. Otherwise he should get himself a blow up doll and not take the risk.

I will side with the guy every single time, however, if dna shows that he is not the father when she claims that he is.
 
Lursa said:
Yup...and that's why they have their choices and may follow them.

See: equal! :mrgreen:

Thanks for agreeing.
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Good. I don't want to hear any more about the moral beliefs of a woman who needs an abortion.


"If their moral beliefs on the subject were that important to them, they would have avoided that risk"
 
vegas giants said:
Good. I don't want to hear any more about the moral beliefs of a woman who needs an abortion.


"If their moral beliefs on the subject were that important to them, they would have avoided that risk"
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?? They choose based on their moral beliefs. That may or may not permit abortion. If they cant have an abortion due to moral obligations, they wont. If they find it morally acceptable, they may do so. In either case, they accept those consequences.

See, as always true...women can not avoid consequences.

Now men cannot either.

Equal! :mrgreen:
 
Lursa said:
?? They choose based on their moral beliefs. That may or may not permit abortion. If they cant have an abortion due to moral obligations, they wont. If they find it morally acceptable, they may do so. In either case, they accept those consequences.

See, as always true...women can not avoid consequences.

Now men cannot either.

Equal! :mrgreen:
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If their moral beliefs on the subject were that important to them, they would have avoided that risk"
 
vegas giants said:
If their moral beliefs on the subject were that important to them, they would have avoided that risk"
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Correct. Making it bigger doesnt change it.

IF they still take the risk, they still pay consequences. (or follow their consciences)

Perfectly equal :mrgreen:
 
Lursa said:
Correct. Making it bigger doesnt change it.

IF they still take the risk, they still pay consequences. (or follow their consciences)

Perfectly equal :mrgreen:
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Thank you. A woman should have no moral qualms about abortion.
 
Lursa said:
The resentment that some men feel is apparent.

I have to agree that it would suck to be stuck with these payments if you didnt want a kid, but I would hope that both parents could act like adults in the best interests of the kid and both be part of the kid's life. Women get 'stuck' having kids all the time...it kind of blows me away that they do...I think alot just wait too long or that many just do not believe in abortion. Either way...they are also stuck. Men seem to think it's a simple decision. It's not.

But alot of men chafe at the idea of women having 'control' or 'power' over them...they've used those words many times. What is ridiculous is that in order to have sex, they are willing to risk that...but then STILL blame the women! Obviously, time & place, they place sex over consequences. THEY choose. But then they look for a way to blame women for their own choice.

I believe that some women probably do abuse the men and the $, but not most. Raising a kid is time and emotionally intensive. It's exhausting. It's scary and infuriating and exhilarating. By no means are women 'getting off easy' by getting enough money to make life for their family easier. It usually means juggling work and childcare. The non-custodial parent has none of that. They are not victims.
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America has IMO, a bad system here a man pays alimony directly to the woman and forces them both into an unwanted relationship or allows the man to easily renege on the payments. Where as where i am the non care givers money is payed to the government and the care giver receives a Sole Parent Support payment from the government. The two people need never meet again if that is desired. Lot less stress on both. .
 
soylentgreen said:
America has IMO, a bad system here a man pays alimony directly to the woman and forces them both into an unwanted relationship or allows the man to easily renege on the payments. Where as where i am the non care givers money is payed to the government and the care giver receives a Sole Parent Support payment from the government. The two people need never meet again if that is desired. Lot less stress on both. .
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The person who WANTS the kid should pay for it
 
vegas giants said:
Good. I don't want to hear any more about the moral beliefs of a woman who needs an abortion.


"If their moral beliefs on the subject were that important to them, they would have avoided that risk"
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Who are you to judge who “needs” an abortion?
 
vegas giants said:
The person who WANTS the kid should pay for it
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The person who does not want a child should use protection each and every time - otherwise that person should be willing to accept the consequences.
 
year2late said:
The person who does not want a child should use protection each and every time - otherwise that person should be willing to accept the consequences.
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So if the man does not want the child and uses protection and she still gets pregnant he is not liable financially? Careful now.....LOL
 
Lursa said:
That is not remotely what I wrote and you are intentionally lying.
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Oh you were quite clear about WHEN a person should worry about their morality.
 
soylentgreen said:
America has IMO, a bad system here a man pays alimony directly to the woman and forces them both into an unwanted relationship or allows the man to easily renege on the payments. Where as where i am the non care givers money is payed to the government and the care giver receives a Sole Parent Support payment from the government. The two people need never meet again if that is desired. Lot less stress on both. .
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That seems fine to me. Certainly then the state would be more accountable & motivated for using what's necessary to get the $.
 
vegas giants said:
Oh you were quite clear about WHEN a person should worry about their morality.
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Then dont lie about it.

I said that woman has every right to follow her own moral code. If she decides to have sex...then she does or doesnt but she pays the consequences either way.

Equal!!!! :mrgreen:
 
Lursa said:
Then dont lie about it.

I said that woman has every right to follow her own moral code. If she decides to have sex...then she does or doesnt but she pays the consequences either way.

Equal!!!! :mrgreen:
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Yes you were quite clear that she should have no moral qualms after she gets pregnant. She knew the risks. I agree.
 
vegas giants said:
Yes you were quite clear that she should have no moral qualms after she gets pregnant. She knew the risks. I agree.
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That's right...she can follow whichever is her choice. And face the consequences.

Equal with men. :mrgreen:

So why are you belaboring it?
 
Lursa said:
That's right...she can follow whichever is her choice. And face the consequences.

Equal with men. :mrgreen:

So why are you belaboring it?
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Not belaboring anything. She should have no moral qualms about an abortion since she should have known the risks when she had sex. I got it. Loud and clear. Thanks
 
year2late said:
Who are you to judge who “needs” an abortion?
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You think that a woman that can not afford to care for her own child should have that child... knowing that the child will suffer?
 
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