Macron says France will recognize a Palestinian state at UN General Assembly this fall

[bomberfox]

Probably a number fairly close to "nil". Over the past few years (and accelerated by Oct 7th), the idea that a Palestinian State even could exist in a state of peace with Israel has become a minority position even among Israeli Arabs.

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Israel got a preview on Oct 7th of what the Palestinians would do, if given a state - it's an interesting testament to the tenaciousness of those fully committed to peacenikism that support remains at all, I suppose. Among Israeli settlers, those responding in favor of a Palestinian state would reasonably be much lower than the already-low responses among the general populace.



Broadly. Israel turned out to be quite useful when it came to degrading the Iranian Threat Network, which has struck some of those Arab Countries with drones.



Yup. Here in the West our young tend to be more radically left wing for, well, a variety of reason. In Israel, if you are Millennial or below, your formative experiences have been Palestinians refusing peace to launch the second Intifada, followed by years of attacks, followed by Israel trying to just give them Gaza freely, culminating in October 7th. Younger rising generations are more right wing as a result, and a lot less amenable to giving state powers and apparatus to people who (apparently) will immediately use it to murder their children.




In the context being discussed, that is not correct, as "Kill all the Jews" is exactly how they mean it. It is an explicitly genocidal vision, fueled by generations of trained and taught hatred and racism.

"One Million October 7ths." That's what we were promised.



Isn't it odd to have to state that for the record? Like, what other country are we like "For the record, I support France's right to exist as it is". But it's good to hear you don't stand with those who want to wipe the whole then judenfrei.



I'm always interested in learning new things about history, however, as I recall, there was not such an agreement, as Abbas rejected Ohmert's offer.



And Obama, who the Palestinians thought would pressure on Israel for a better deal.

Never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.



There was absolutely strong debate over that within Israeli society, however, IIR, the Oslo process ended when Arafat decided to reject the 2000 Camp David deal and start the Second Intifada instead. Settlement expansion stayed below 1992 levels throughout, though the settler population grew faster than the number of dwellings did (hard to tell people they can't have babies in a free society).

Israel has not constantly sought to give up land for peace to the Palestinians - that is true. But they have repeatedly sought to do so. The Palestinians have never accepted such a deal.

Well believe israel wants peace when they stop stealing land in occupied territories and stop wanting to annex the west bank. Im done with a government that acts like a spoiled child. They will have to deal with a palestinian state whether they like it or not. The moment i learned about their settlements in occupied territories and nuttyahu’s desire to take over the west bank was the moment things started to not make a lot of sense.

Unlike you, i have seen what these greedy little settlers do.

This is what is prompting other countries to react this way.

 

[cpwill]

Probably as predictable as a lack of a ceasefire without the statements from the UK, Canada, France, and Australia?

Significantly more so, actually, as has been shown you in the data repeatedly.

In none of their statements was there much substance for consequences, and if past precedent dictates future action, then all they'll do is acknowledge a Palestinian state and it will be as helpful as the other 147 nations that have done the same.

On the contrary - it will be a serious net negative to that cause, because it will encourage the further continuation of the current war, and it increases the odds of similar conflicts in the future.

HAMAS is always winning in its propaganda though. Just the fact it's fighting Israel is a win on its end, and it celebrates the martyrdom of its dead as part of the seemingly never-ending struggle.

It certainly does see warfare as a good in and of itself, because it (rationally) believes that is advancing its interests and cause. However, that does not change the fact that HAMAS' perception of whether or not it is winning is going to drive HAMAS' decision-making, and that the Western powers convincing HAMAS that it was acheiveing victories by first launching and then sustaining this war incentivizes them to continue this war longer, and launch more of them in the future.

It's less a question of me liking it an whether it's an apt comparison.

Correct. Whether you like the fact that it is an apt comparison is immaterial, since the comparison is: "

The demands for a change in leadership In Gaza is much different than it would be in Russia since the conditions are nowhere near similar.

Okedoke. What conditions in Gaza make France demanding a change in Palestinian leadership significantly power impactful than France demanding a change in Russian leadership while also acknowledging that Russia rightfully owns Eastern Ukraine.

Specifically, what conditions. Not "oh well you know, Gazans have a chance to consider their future", or any other vague nothings that mean nothing on the ground. What specific forces are going to go in with guns and fight HAMAS to protect opposition movements from HAMAS so that Gazan will have an actual opportunity to choose to reject HAMAS? Since recognition of Palestinian Statehood is not being made contingent on whether or not HAMAS is still around and in charge, who is going to effectively incentivize Gazans to turn on and die in a war against HAMAS?

Because if the answer is "nobody", then.... yeah. Thats pretty much going to be about as impactful as calling Putin a Very Naughty Boy.

Netanyahu's stated this:

[quoteHamas must be destroyed, Gaza must be demilitarized, and Palestinian society must be de-radicalized. These are the three prerequisites for peace between Israel and its Palestinian neighbors in Gaza. First, Hamas, a key Iranian proxy, must be destroyed. The U.S., U.K., France, Germany and many other countries support Israel’s intention to demolish the terror group. To achieve that goal, its military capabilities must be dismantled and its political rule over Gaza must end. Hamas’s leaders have vowed to repeat the Oct. 7 massacre “again and again.” That is why their destruction is the only proportional response to prevent the repeat of such horrific atrocities. Anything less guarantees more war and more bloodshed.

Source
So what we know about HAMAS is largely what this means is "destroying" anyone who is armed. HAMAS doesn't have armored units or an air force, so unless Israel knows who every fighter is, this is an unrealistic goal in terms of "demolishing" a terror group.
[/QUOTE]


That statement by Netanyahu seems pretty straightforward and correct. It does not, however, follow that "HAMAS must be destroyed" means "every fighter is both known and killed" - that is not how CT or COIN work.

I have seen some anecdotal stuff on deradicalization.



but have no idea how actually institutionalized or widespread it is.

Much of their leadership is in Qatar and Türkiye, so any leadership killed in Gaza would not eradicate the threat, unless they're going to kill the leaders abroad as well.

Maybe. I think you can certainly make a strong argument for the killing of the Billionaire who steal aid from their people while directing their deaths from abroad.

 

[cpwill]

Well believe israel wants peace when they stop stealing land in occupied territories and stop wanting to annex the west bank. Im done with a government that acts like a spoiled child. They will have to deal with a palestinian state whether they like it or not. The moment i learned about their settlements in occupied territories and nuttyahu’s desire to take over the west bank was the moment things started to not make a lot of sense.

Unlike you, i have seen what these greedy little settlers do.

This is what is prompting other countries to react this way.

cool story brah.

As explained to you already: "A Jew Moved Down The Street From Me And I Don't Like It" is not stealing land, nor does Israel "have" to deal with a Palestinian state.

 

[bomberfox]

cool story brah.

Truth hurts.

 

[cpwill]

Truth hurts.

Eh. I've seen it met with a shrug.

 

[Tigerace117]

cool story brah.

As explained to you already: "A Jew Moved Down The Street From Me And I Don't Like It" is not stealing land, nor does Israel "have" to deal with a Palestinian state.

Israel shrieking “we are Jews, international law doesn’t apply to us” can’t actually change the facts, no matter how much Tel Aviv wails.

 

[bomberfox]

cool story brah.

As explained to you already: "A Jew Moved Down The Street From Me And I Don't Like It" is not stealing land, nor does Israel "have" to deal with a Palestinian state.

Thats not what i was even talking about and you know it, more dishonesty and quite frankly the sheer lie that you are spouting is pure propaganda. Yeah they will have to deal with a palestinian state.

We’re done.

 

[bomberfox]

I believe transferring settlers into occupied land is already illegal under international law but thats aint even what im referring to as stolen land.

 

[bomberfox]

How extremist settlers in the West Bank became the law

Mobilisation of violent settlers has intensified Palestinians’ fears of attacks and displacement

ig.ft.com

Yep just you know peaceful neighbors moving in LOL @cpwill

Who could say no to neighbors like that? I repeatedly tried to clarify what i was talking about but nuuuu peaceful neighbors. Any say to the contrary is blood libel or something something wah.

 

[cpwill]

Thats not what i was even talking about

As someone once said to me:

I answer what i please

 

[Dans La Lune]

cool story brah.

As explained to you already: "A Jew Moved Down The Street From Me And I Don't Like It" is not stealing land, nor does Israel "have" to deal with a Palestinian state.

 

[bomberfox]

I mean you can specify all day but it seems like there is a need to put words in people’s mouths.

 

[joluoto]

And now it's UK's turn.

UK formally recognises Palestinian state​

 

[oneworld2]

France has recognized the state of Palestine. So too the UK and others with more on the verge of it.

It's just a ruse imo, a face saving attempt by people with no integrity, no values etc. They just see the political benefit of doing so, at least within their own countries imo

The two state solution is dead, it died years ago with the illegal Israeli settlement project.

The danger is that these fraudsters would quickly lock the Palestinians in ANY old " two state solution" just to have it disappear from the international agenda and make themselves look a tad more humane when they are anything but.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

It's just a ruse imo, a face saving attempt by people with no integrity, no values etc. They just see the political benefit of doing so, at least within their own countries imo

I don't know. I was serious about my recognition of Narnia and Hogwarts.

The two state solution is dead, it died years ago with the illegal Israeli settlement project.

That is incorrect. What killed the peace process was the Palestinians raping and murdering people.

The danger is that these fraudsters would quickly lock the Palestinians in ANY old " two state solution" just to have it disappear from the international agenda and make themselves look a tad more humane when they are anything but.

Well, look. The Palestinians have lost the West Bank now. Because of those false accusations of Genocide, Israel gets to keep the West Bank all for themselves.

But IF (and only if) the Palestinians ever decide to become peaceful, it's not too late for them to have a Palestinian state that is based on the Gaza Strip alone.

And while Trump's idiotic idea of ethnic cleansing is not going to happen, he did have a point about the Gaza Strip being prime beachfront property. If the Palestinians ever decided to build a peaceful state in Gaza, they could make it a paradise.