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Louisiana's bold bid to privatize schools

Boo Radley

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You've yet to answer how they're outperforming.
You say they just kick students out, where's the beef?

You've yet to provide any alternative to the status quo.
It's time to progress past the archaic system of education we have now.

Yes I did. 1) I pointed out over all they are not. 2) I pointed out that by being selective, removing problem children, they should be out perfroming. In fact, they should be wildly out preforming. That they are not, with that advantage is very disappointing and suggests strongly that they are not a solution of any kind.

You have a weird definition of the word "not." The fact is people are working to change education as we know it daily. I've even linked a video that discusses a different direction that is far more radical than charter schools as it changes education fundamentally, from teaching batches and the factory mode to individual and collaborative. The only people stuck are those who only see running away as an option.

We also need to return respect and discipline to the classroom. No more letting the inmates run the asylum. As a people we need to stop demonizing teachers and degrading education, and promote both. Education has to matter to students, and parents, and not just papers but actual learning.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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61% is a D-. That's nothing to get excited about. Charter schools use less money because they have fewer students and often don't include sports. Nearly 40% perform worse than public schools. How is that something to be proud of. It takes effort and time on the part of the parent to send a kid to a charter school. Even with parental involvement more charter schools do worse than do better.
You think it's hard to fire a tenured teacher you should try to expel a kid. In nearly 20 years of teaching, I have never seen a kid expelled. Alternative schools for discipline problems are not everywhere. Where I teach if we want to send a kid to the area alternative school, the district has to pay the tuition. It also takes getting the parents permission to send the kid there. Too many parents can't be bothered.

Because it's an experiment in finding out how to motivate kids to perform better.
Some of the charter schools have bridged the gap between inner city, poor minorities and middle to upper class whites.
That's incredible.

Expelling kids should be routine.
It's insane to think that you can teach every kid, even the ones who refuse to learn.
It's not accepting of reality.

There was an alternative public school in my district for trouble making kids.
There weren't enough there in my opinion.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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Yes I did. 1) I pointed out over all they are not. 2) I pointed out that by being selective, removing problem children, they should be out perfroming. In fact, they should be wildly out preforming. That they are not, with that advantage is very disappointing and suggests strongly that they are not a solution of any kind.

Some are wildly outperforming.
Adopting these models universally is difficult because the funding mechanisms, that the state controls are limited when it comes to alternative forms of schooling.

You have a weird definition of the word "not." The fact is people are working to change education as we know it daily. I've even linked a video that discusses a different direction that is far more radical than charter schools as it changes education fundamentally, from teaching batches and the factory mode to individual and collaborative. The only people stuck are those who only see running away as an option.

Here you go again.
Why are people required to support their local public school, which could be failing, instead of finding a better alternative?
Just because I live in X district doesn't mean I should be brow beaten into supporting it.

We also need to return respect and discipline to the classroom. No more letting the inmates run the asylum. As a people we need to stop demonizing teachers and degrading education, and promote both. Education has to matter to students, and parents, and not just papers but actual learning.

Public schools are a behemoth in terms of bureaucracy.
Change happens at a snails pace.

Removing the administration and union nightmare would be a good start.
But both sides will not let that happen.
 

Boo Radley

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Some are wildly outperforming.
Adopting these models universally is difficult because the funding mechanisms, that the state controls are limited when it comes to alternative forms of schooling.

I can't say none are, but the point is they all should be, as they remove the most difficult students.


Here you go again.
Why are people required to support their local public school, which could be failing, instead of finding a better alternative?
Just because I live in X district doesn't mean I should be brow beaten into supporting it.

I don't see where you're addressing what's been said. Largely, there is no better alternative. All schools do exactly the same thing on the whole. What is most different is who goes there. Charters offer nothing different other than a different building and removing the hard work, the difficult student. If you move those students to another building, you'll have the same problems. If you eliminate the difficult students, the school they are in would likely improve, hence no reason to move. If you were presenting something radically different, I might listen more. But merely moving the problem isn't a soloution of any kind.


Public schools are a behemoth in terms of bureaucracy.
Change happens at a snails pace.

Removing the administration and union nightmare would be a good start.
But both sides will not let that happen.

Again, you've offered nothing different. Charter schools are not without bureaucracy and offer no changes to speak of in the classroom. And remember, unions don't make either law or policy. Someone has to sit down with them. I still think you should focus your concern to those who do make law and policy.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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I can't say none are, but the point is they all should be, as they remove the most difficult students.

Some do, not all do.


I don't see where you're addressing what's been said. Largely, there is no better alternative. All schools do exactly the same thing on the whole. What is most different is who goes there. Charters offer nothing different other than a different building and removing the hard work, the difficult student. If you move those students to another building, you'll have the same problems. If you eliminate the difficult students, the school they are in would likely improve, hence no reason to move. If you were presenting something radically different, I might listen more. But merely moving the problem isn't a soloution of any kind.

No they don't, it's already been documented that some charter schools do things differently.
Repeating false information doesn't make that true.


Again, you've offered nothing different. Charter schools are not without bureaucracy and offer no changes to speak of in the classroom. And remember, unions don't make either law or policy. Someone has to sit down with them. I still think you should focus your concern to those who do make law and policy.

Charters remove the problem bureaucracy.
The Administration at both the school, county and teacher levels are gone.
The operators make the rules, beyond state law.

No one should be forced to consult a union, when they're trying to make policy changes to improve schooling.
Consulting the teachers, telling them of the new changes is fine.
 

Boo Radley

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Some do, not all do.

Most do, it is there main selling point.


No they don't, it's already been documented that some charter schools do things differently.
Repeating false information doesn't make that true.

No they really don't. The minor things you have mentioned are not significant. They use largely the very same methodolgy.


Charters remove the problem bureaucracy.
The Administration at both the school, county and teacher levels are gone.
The operators make the rules, beyond state law.

No one should be forced to consult a union, when they're trying to make policy changes to improve schooling.
Consulting the teachers, telling them of the new changes is fine.

I know you like to think they do, but they really don't. Sure, they can pay less. I see no evidecne that helps much. And no matter how you feel about unions, which still ignores, and willfully ignores, the other side of the table, the point is charters have shown no evidence they are better, prodice better results, or do anything significantly different. And I see nothing significantly different between opperators and admisnrators, or in the rules they make. Again, there is no real or significant difference between the schools.
 

LibertyBurns

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I love webster! Though it is somewhat lacking on the definition you have provided.

Madrasah ʿāmmah (Arabic: مدرسة عامة‎) translates as "public school"

Madrasah ḫāṣṣah (Arabic: مدرسة خاصة‎) translates as "private school"

Madrasah dīniyyah (Arabic: مدرسة دينية‎) translates as "religious school"

Madrasah ʾIslāmiyyah (Arabic: مدرسة إسلامية‎) translates as "Islamic school"

Madrasah ǧāmiʿah (Arabic: مدرسة جامعة‎) translates as "university"

You don't think I knew what I was saying when I told you if it was catholic I wouldnt have a problem ;)

Thats why I added if you meant a muslim school then most likely not, key word is most likely. If the school is good eh what can I say, as long as it isn't purely islamic studies.

India has some interesting stories about their madrasah's. Hindu populations are growing in them, one school boasted 10 out of 30 non muslim teachers.

It also stated that less than 20% were actually strictly theological schools.
 

LibertyBurns

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Just as I suspected, redefining what evolution is, and then arrogantly accusing me of being the disingenuous one.

Come on, Burns. Are you seriously that opposed to science?

Still wont answer the question.

Your saying if I know that a virus evolves or bacteria, especially because we can observe this in a laboratory, that human evolution has to be fact.

It is not fact, the evidence leans toward it, yes!

Why am I against science?
Umm I believe in evolution silly goose ;)

Just because I try to make a reasonable argument for one to see both sides does not mean I'm against science or evolution. I like to keep my mind open to alternate possibilities on certain subjects, especially this one.
 

Comfort Food

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Still wont answer the question.

Your saying if I know that a virus evolves or bacteria, especially because we can observe this in a laboratory, that human evolution has to be fact.

It is not fact, the evidence leans toward it, yes!

Why am I against science?
Umm I believe in evolution silly goose ;)

Just because I try to make a reasonable argument for one to see both sides does not mean I'm against science or evolution. I like to keep my mind open to alternate possibilities on certain subjects, especially this one.

I'm having trouble following your argument. You believe in evolution, but you believe that humans could be immune from it? If you believe that human beings could have started walking the earth just as they are without being something different previously then you do not believe in evolution. Humans are an advanced mammal/species. You can debate ancestors of modern homo sapiens and common ancestors with other mammals I suppose, but arguing that we defy evolution altogether, yet still believe in evolution is something I don't understand. Believing in evolution as a whole and human evolution are not distinctive qualities you can separate. If you believe in one you must believe in the other. Keeping an "open mind" on one issue means you are keeping an "open mind" on the other.
 
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LibertyBurns

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I'm having trouble following your argument. You believe in evolution, but you believe that humans could be immune from it? If you believe that human beings could have started walking the earth just as they are without being something different previously then you do not believe in evolution. Humans are an advanced mammal/species. You can debate ancestors of modern homo sapiens and common ancestors with other mammals I suppose, but arguing that we defy evolution altogether, yet still believe in evolution is something I don't understand. Believing in evolution as a whole and human evolution are not distinctive qualities you can separate. If you believe in one you must believe in the other. Keeping an "open mind" on one issue means you are keeping an "open mind" on the other.

Really what we started arguing about is evolution in schools. I said it is their choice what they learn, it doesnt mean they will become unproductive members of society.

He reinforced this argument with, a doctor that doesnt believe in evolution can't perform his/her duties. Such as them not being able to tell you how to take antibiotics, they won't tell you if you quit taking them that the virus can evolve. That was the argument, thats when I started talking about microevolution. I was trying to explain that a doctor can still function without believing that we came from apes. This makes me a hater of science lol...

I said I believe in evolution, I say I keep my mind open because of the advancments we see in genetics, mainly talking about what we evolved from and how. Evolution is still being studied, right?

Also keep an open mind that we are the biproduct of ape raping aliens ;) lol
 

Harry Guerrilla

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Most do, it is there main selling point.

If that were true, then all charter schools would be excelling past public schools.

No they really don't. The minor things you have mentioned are not significant. They use largely the very same methodolgy.

Nope.
Not true.


Charter schools were developed, in part, to serve as an R&D engine for traditional public schools, resulting in a wide variety of school strategies and outcomes. In this paper, we collect unparalleled data on the inner-workings of 35 charter schools and correlate these data with credible estimates of each school's effectiveness. We find that traditionally collected input measures -- class size, per pupil expenditure, the fraction of teachers with no certification, and the fraction of teachers with an advanced degree -- are not correlated with school effectiveness. In stark contrast, we show that an index of five policies suggested by over forty years of qualitative research -- frequent teacher feedback, the use of data to guide instruction, high-dosage tutoring, increased instructional time, and high expectations -- explains approximately 50 percent of the variation in school effectiveness. Our results are robust to controls for three alternative theories of schooling: a model emphasizing the provision of wrap-around services, a model focused on teacher selection and retention, and the "No Excuses'' model of education. We conclude by showing that our index provides similar results in a separate sample of charter schools.

Getting Beneath the Veil of Effective Schools: Evidence from New York City

But the best charter schools are not random at all; they significantly and consistently outperform the averages, and they have a lot in common with each other in their ethos and operations. In particular these schools — which, in some states, have opened reverse achievement gaps with low-income minority students outpacing state averages — have tight controls over who teaches in them, a relentless focus on results, and an intense use of data to inform decisions. There is also solid evidence that their successes can be reproduced and scaled up in networks such as KIPP (99 schools in 20 states), Uncommon Schools (24 schools in three states), Achievement First (17 schools in Connecticut and New York) and Aspire Public Schools (30 schools in California). Overall, the consistency of performance among the top tier of charter networks as well as many individual schools, including the Preuss School at the University of California San Diego and the MATCH Charter Public School in Boston, helps explain why the Obama Administration awarded $50 million in replication funding for high-quality charters last month.


Charter Schools: The Good Ones Aren't Flukes (or Cherrypickers) - TIME

I know you like to think they do, but they really don't. Sure, they can pay less. I see no evidecne that helps much. And no matter how you feel about unions, which still ignores, and willfully ignores, the other side of the table, the point is charters have shown no evidence they are better, prodice better results, or do anything significantly different. And I see nothing significantly different between opperators and admisnrators, or in the rules they make. Again, there is no real or significant difference between the schools.

Except they have, you just don't want them to.
I've brought evidence that disputes, what you're saying.
 

Dittohead not!

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I love webster! Though it is somewhat lacking on the definition you have provided.

Madrasah ʿāmmah (Arabic: مدرسة عامة‎) translates as "public school"

Madrasah ḫāṣṣah (Arabic: مدرسة خاصة‎) translates as "private school"

Madrasah dīniyyah (Arabic: مدرسة دينية‎) translates as "religious school"

Madrasah ʾIslāmiyyah (Arabic: مدرسة إسلامية‎) translates as "Islamic school"

Madrasah ǧāmiʿah (Arabic: مدرسة جامعة‎) translates as "university"

You don't think I knew what I was saying when I told you if it was catholic I wouldnt have a problem ;)

Thats why I added if you meant a muslim school then most likely not, key word is most likely. If the school is good eh what can I say, as long as it isn't purely islamic studies.

India has some interesting stories about their madrasah's. Hindu populations are growing in them, one school boasted 10 out of 30 non muslim teachers.

It also stated that less than 20% were actually strictly theological schools.

Hmm.. I didn't know that.

I suppose it's like the word "Allah", which we take to mean the Muslim god, when it is actually just the word for god in Arabic.
 

Boo Radley

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If that were true, then all charter schools would be excelling past public schools.

Nope, it is true and they shold be.


Nope.
Not true.
Nope. I challenge to show one theing they've actually changed. The factory model still exists there. They are still group by age and the classroom model is still predominent. We're speaking of methodology. That's the word I used. Not funding.

You're Time article offers nothing specific. Merely makes a claim. I need more.




Except they have, you just don't want them to.
I've brought evidence that disputes, what you're saying.

I am waiting for you to do so. There is nothing specific in what you're brought. A couple of claims, but nothing showing what they actually do.


10 Things Charter Schools Won't Tell You

1. We're no better than public schools.

(snip)

2. Our teachers aren t certified.

According to data from the National Center for Education Statistics, charter-school teachers are, on average, younger and less likely to hold state certification than teachers in traditional public schools. In a 2000 survey, 92% of public school teachers held state certification, compared to 79% of charter school teachers. A 2008 survey found that 32% of charter school teachers were under 30, compared to 17% of traditional public school teachers.


(snip)

3. Plus, they keep quitting.

As many as one in four charter school teachers leave every year, according to a 2007 study by Gary Miron, a professor of education at Western Michigan University, and other researchers at the Great Lakes Center for Education Research and Practice. That s about double the typical teacher turnover rate in traditional public schools.

(snip)
8. but we ll push them out if they don t perform.

The Knowledge is Power Program (KIPP) schools have been criticized for high rates of student attrition, in part because it s the struggling students who are more likely to leave schools mid-year so if more students leave charters, that churn could boost a school s scores. A KIPP study released in June found students leaving at rates comparable to the rate at which students leave traditional public schools but, according to Miron, that study ignored the fact that KIPP schools don t then fill empty slots with other weak, transient students the way traditional public schools do.

(snip)

9. Success can be bought.

Some of the most successful charter schools are also some of the wealthiest. Harlem Children s Zone, for example, had over $193 million in net assets at the end of the 2008-2009 school year, according to its most recent IRS filing. The organization s charter schools spend $12,443 per student in public money and an additional $3,482 that comes from private fundraising. That additional funding helps pay for 30% more time in class, according to Marty Lipp, spokesman for the organization.

(snip)

10. Even great teachers can only do so much.

Much of the public debate over charter schools focuses on teacher performance and the ability to fire ineffective teachers something that s more difficult at a traditional public school where teachers are typically union members. While it s true that teachers represent the most important in-school factor affecting student performance, out-of-school factors matter more, Ravitch says. The single biggest predictor of student performance is family income, she says. I certainly wish it were not so, but it is.



10 Things Charter Schools Won't Tell You - SmartMoney.com
 

cpwill

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Hmm.. I didn't know that.

I suppose it's like the word "Allah", which we take to mean the Muslim god, when it is actually just the word for god in Arabic.

Actually, at least, when you speak to them directly, they tend to translate it to "the God". :shrug:
 

Juggernaut

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You have a weird definition of the word "not." The fact is people are working to change education as we know it daily. I've even linked a video that discusses a different direction that is far more radical than charter schools as it changes education fundamentally, from teaching batches and the factory mode to individual and collaborative. The only people stuck are those who only see running away as an option.

Hi all,

I'm a Louisiana Native and I'd love to take a look at that video link on education reform. Boo Radley, could you repost the link or steer me toward the original?
 

Juggernaut

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Phys251

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Thanks for sharing the link.

I like this guys approach to education. He has some solid points. The most startling statistic, for me, is that Louisiana is 3rd in the NATION in ADHD perscriptions and were consistently on the bottom rungs of proficiency.

CDC - ADHD, Data and Statistics - NCBDDD

I think they could much more readily fix up that problem by cleaning up all those refineries in southern Louisiana. :2razz:
 

Dittohead not!

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Thanks for sharing the link.

I like this guys approach to education. He has some solid points. The most startling statistic, for me, is that Louisiana is 3rd in the NATION in ADHD perscriptions and were consistently on the bottom rungs of proficiency.

CDC - ADHD, Data and Statistics - NCBDDD

I wonder just how many of those ADHD kids are severe enough to qualify for "benefits"?

Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD, sometimes known as ADD) is a problem some people have with inattentiveness, impulsiveness, and/or hyperactivity. Many parents apply for disability benefits through the Supplemental Security Income (SSI) program for their child who has been diagnosed with ADHD, in the hopes that they will receive a monthly check to help with care for the child and living expenses. But most children who have been diagnosed with ADHD will not be granted SSI disability benefits. Only those with the most severe form of ADHD have any hopes of getting benefits.

SS benefits
 
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