Louisiana Lawmaker Forced to Clarify There Was No ‘Good’ in Slavery

[Master Debator]

I can understand why you must say that. But I never said what you say I said.

This is an example of rephrasing. This is what you wish for me to say, or possibly what you imagine that I am saying, but in fact it is your own rewriting and refashioning. This is such a human, all to human thing. Just see it.

There were numerous benign aspects to the institution of slavery in the South. That kind of statement usually involves a comparison. And that is how I established it originally, way back when.

Then present one because the last time you gave us an example of a man, who at the age of 44 started raping his 14 year old slave and the fact that he cared about the slaves he got to rape and exploit doesn't really make it begnin.

 

[Tigerace117]

And if the DOJ had jailed the BLM leaders as the terrorist thugs they are, a lot fewer contemporary people would have escaped injuries and fatalities during the Summer if Hate.

But those assaults are OK with you, right, because they weren’t “white supremacists”

Unlike your heroes, BLM aren’t “terrorists”. Hell, it barely qualifies as an organization.

Go weep into your Klan robes elsewhere

 

[Alizia Tyler]

Then present one because the last time you gave us an example of a man, who at the age of 44 started raping his 14 year old slave and the fact that he cared about the slaves he got to rape and exploit doesn't really make it begnin.

No, you will need to do your own research. Preferably among primary sources. Don’t ask that I prove to you there were benign aspects, do your research and prove it to yourself.

(You are referring to the movie clip from 12 Years A Slave?)

 

[Master Debator]

No, you will need to do your own research. Preferably among primary sources. Don’t ask that I prove to you there were benign aspects, do your research and prove it to yourself.

(You are referring to the movie clip from 12 Years A Slave?

You're the one claiming there are begnin aspects of slavery, it isn't my job to prove that for you. I'm fine with your admission by default that you can't. And no, I'm referencing history. Thomas Jefferson was raping Sally Hemings from at least the age of 14 or 15.

 

[Alizia Tyler]

You're the one claiming there are benign aspects of slavery, it isn't my job to prove that for you. I'm fine with your admission by default that you can't.

It is your job however, independently of my position, to seek out, understand, and speak the truth by gaining an understanding of real, not revised, history.

You will have to do your own research. I pointed to a title (Pro-Slavery Arguments) but there are many other sources that support a sense of ‘degrees of benignity’.

I do not go in for the ‘he raped her’ argument. It is retrofitting the application of modern morals and ethics to former times. But I can understand why you’d work that angle given your general predilections . . .

 

[Ouroboros]

It takes a special kind of stupidity to declare BLM “evil”, and choosing to celebrate a regime which went to war to continue buying and selling other human beings absolutely can be changed.

I still have not “celebrated” the Confederacy because I choose to speak of the mixed motives of their opponents. Complete and “slavish” devotion to one sided narratives is your thing.

 

[Tigerace117]

I still have not “celebrated” the Confederacy because I choose to speak of the mixed motives of their opponents. Complete and “slavish” devotion to one sided narratives is your thing.

You certainly have desperately tried to downplay and evade the fact that your heroes were fighting to defend slavery.

 

[Ouroboros]

And the tantrum because you can’t handle the fact your heroes fought to defend slavery continues.

Tantrums are also indicated by people too upset to diagram their sentences.

 

[Ouroboros]

I can refer you to the same sources that I have read, reviewed, glossed and perused. I do not think it possible to create a fact-based post that would convince you of anything at all!

So, my value is not in the area that you see as being valuable. For example I would recommend that you get and read Pro-Slavery Thought in the Old South (University of N. Carolina Press, 1935) where the two distinct arguments -- pro and contra -- are expressed in primary sources.

You would then be able to see that those men (and women) of the South had a civil basis for their concept of the stratified society, and that it fit into a Christian framework. It may indeed have become impossible to maintain, but it was not uncivilized and it was not without a logical, grounded structure. You can if you wish label it *wrong then and wrong now* (like the preface to the Gone With the Wind dvd that I recently got and watched) but I resist those sort of declarations. Slavey in the South had many unique and (I regret to say) positive and even humane features. That is a more truthful statement than those that come from TigerAce and many others -- you too apparently.

Similarly, or comparatively, in this book all the abolitionist arguments are presented, and they also have a sound basis. Within the South itself there was a strong anti-slavery movement and an abolitionist movement. Left to themselves I speculate (as we can only do) that slavery would have been nullified and it would have happened *organically* and possibly also through actual involvement of Blacks themselves.

In any case, what I do and what you cannot understand, is to situate myself more than you within a realistic and fair understanding of the actual facts.

I do not think this changes, necessarily, my core idea that these two races are non-compatible. I think that is a fair statement, a realistic one. And though I do refer to the sources of those ideas and those who have developed those ideas, I do so as one substantially removed from the dynamic of American culture. I approach these questions more philosophically than practically.

We are just going to have to see where all of this goes and what it results in. I do no0t think it is going to settle down though. And I think more social conflict and fracturing are on the horizon.

Honestly, it would have been best if your side had not stirred up the cultural pot. I genuinely think that you-plural did do this. I think it happened through Obama's presidency. You likely see this as 'necessary activism' to right wrong and make further adjustments. But I see it within a larger context of an established intention of displacement and dispossession. And all of that connects to larger meta-political issues and questions.

And I can refer you to many sources where you can expand on your grasp of these matters.

All Mad Libs want are facts that reinforce their prejudices.

 

[Ouroboros]

There is no "original white demographic" of the United States, and to speak of one demonstrates an alarming ignorance of American history. From the very beginning of English Colonization in North America, white settlers lived alongside both native converts, as well as African slaves. America has been, since its inception, a multiethnic country.

The first definition I found of “demographic” was “a particular sector of the population.”

The word does not imply exclusivity.

 

[Tigerace117]

Tantrums are also indicated by people too upset to diagram their sentences.

Hate to break it to you bud, but nobody cares what someone still desperately trying to mop up his tears with the sleeves of his Klan robes blathers about “diagramming sentences”......or anything else, really.

 

[Ouroboros]

That rather seems like a binary view that skips over some rather obvious questions. One, why where they ripping people from their homes and societies? Should we ignore that the purpose was to exploit their service and labor? And two if we ignore the reality that exploitation of labor was the point for the sake of argument, why couldn't Africans be elevated in society?

Then you don't know what inevitable means. The ripping of Africans out of their homelands was purposeful.

In otherwords once the lie that Africans were genetically inferior and incapable of anything other than manual labor was exposed it's hard to ignore what the true nature of slavery was, a vile institution, perpetuated by vile men, where before you feel as if they could of feigned ignorance.

Your simplistic assessments don't bother me at all. Those places haven't been left to themselves. They were exploited by European colonialism and then American imperialism since the 16th century. But since you think they're failure is inevitable, maybe you can explain objectively what you think it is about those people that makes their failure certain.



This is why it's better to be me. I don't have to pretend to feel sorry about what's happening to you and yours.

There are no ramifications, Charles Murray isn't someone who ideas are taken seriously in academia.

You say referring to colonialists as rapers and pillagers is reductionist but I've actually done no such thing. They raped and pillaged. That's not all they did but they did a lot of it. That's a fact. Deal with it. Do you think the other things they did made up for the raping and pillaging then make that case instead of crying all the time.

That is at least one case AT has repeatedly made; you simply chose not to acknowledge it to create your Red Skull Cartoons.

 

[Ouroboros]

All of that sounds rather emotional and personal.

 

[Ouroboros]

Exactly. You don't feel as if the Confederate support for slavery was a moral failing and yet the vast majority of people do. There in lies your problem. You have to convince them it wasn't and I don't see you being able to do and certainly not with these arguments.

Then present your facts. If you think that's all that's standing between you and a white supremacist resurgence then present them.

I never claimed you didn't have a right to advocate for a white supremacist state, only that your efforts were hilariously amusing.

You feel that way do you? So can we finally lay to rest the lie that arguments aren't emotionally based?

Is this supposed to represent some loss or failing on my part? I didn't read some random racist you've grown enamored with? Oh no.

More empty boasts. Cycle rinse repeat.

The vast majority of the people are easily persuaded by Mad Lib cartoons.

 

[Ouroboros]

I fully recognize that the Exploration and Conquest era involved all sorts of things we call negative. The same thing happened, did it not, when the northern tribes invaded and conquered the Indian subcontinent. Creation often involves destruction. These are universal features of humankind.

Another example, one that won’t lend itself to more colonialist kvetching, would be that of the Asians who overran the islands of Japan and forced the Ainu, previous inhabitants who belonged to a genetically distinct Asian strain, into a marginal position, just as Europeans did to Native Americans.

 

[Ouroboros]

Of course I knew what you meant. White historians very rarely take any serious interest in African civilizations, because if they did, it would force them to reconsider their deep seated notions of inherent white cultural superiority.

White civilizations were definitely not superior to those of the brown and Black people in making slavery into big business back when Europe was mostly content with serfs.

 

[Ouroboros]

You're the one claiming there are begnin aspects of slavery, it isn't my job to prove that for you. I'm fine with your admission by default that you can't. And no, I'm referencing history. Thomas Jefferson was raping Sally Hemings from at least the age of 14 or 15.

Did you mention her age just so you could claim the rape was inherently statutory?

 

[Ouroboros]

You certainly have desperately tried to downplay and evade the fact that your heroes were fighting to defend slavery.

No, I’ve outright denied that slavery was the sole reason. That’s your cartoon.

 

[Ouroboros]

Hate to break it to you bud, but nobody cares what someone still desperately trying to mop up his tears with the sleeves of his Klan robes blathers about “diagramming sentences”......or anything else, really.

Breaking things comes natural to a broken record. But who listens to it?

 

[Ouroboros]

there you go guys. now you know who this person is.

Wow, what a graphic display of a mind reaching the end of its tether. Couldn’t even finish the sentence, eh?

 

[Alizia Tyler]

Unlike your heroes, BLM aren’t “terrorists”. Hell, it barely qualifies as an organization.

Fair enough. Consider the following:

 

[Tigerace117]

No, I’ve outright denied that slavery was the sole reason. That’s your cartoon.

You’ve outright desperately tried to handwave away the fact that your heroes were fighting to defend slavery because even today, a hundred and fifty years later, some folks’ “Southern Pride”(tm) is still so fragile and pathetic that you can’t face the truth.

 

[Ouroboros]

Why do you think exploiting people for your own economic benefit makes you any better than if you were a mustache twirling bad guy? I don't understand the math you're trying to do there.

I didn't extrapolate anything other than I don't remember Jesus saying it was Christian to rape and pillage. Maybe you can find that gospel for me.

You misunderstand; you and Tigerace are the ones making long dead Southerners into comic book villains, and you’re doing so because talking about motives strains your brains. Since you constantly claim to have a superior grasp of morals, this dishonesty exposes your ineptitude in this department.

 

[Tigerace117]

Fair enough. Consider the following”

Oh look, some random opinions. Who cares?

ESPECIALLY since you see absolutely nothing wrong with killing hundreds of thousands of people to protect slavery.

 

[Ouroboros]

I don't care about the pejoratives so much as I recognize that's all you got.

Except that you started the trash talk, and then you cry when someone talks back.