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Life at Conception

All I'm saying is that I have an educated, informed opinion, and that the education and information underlying that opinion is not merely casual self-education via the internet, but a formal, accredited education in professional scientific information at a level that was recognized as acceptable by professionals in a clearly relevant scientific discipline.

The operative word ‘OPINION’; with all your education, all you’re left with is your opinion. Scientists like to run around talking about their theories as fact. Physicists like to claim black holes as real. I’m not doubting they are, but no one has really seen one, so it’s really just a theory, not absolute proof. Environmentalists love running around claiming the world is coming to an end because of global warming; and that it’s man causing it. Even though we’ve only been on this earth (according to science) about 400,000 of the 4.5 billion years the earth has existed and global climates take eons to make real change on a global scale, global warming advocates belief they have enough data to conclude we are warming, and that this warming is dangerous, and that man is causing it. They run around spouting this as truth and demand all sorts of political laws and policies to be devised around it.

Your education tells you that a fetus doesn’t become a person until it’s born, that’s a theory. You can define something like that any way you want to in order to fit a specific agenda. Everything I have read from you abortion advocates is nothing more than theory and opinion, and you demand laws and policies be devised around it.

I err on the side of caution that if there is one iota of possibility that the fetus being aborted is actually a human, with a soul, with feelings, can actually feel the pain of being ripped apart; that if it could scream out in pain it would… I am against abortion. I don’t need a Harvard education in anything to teach me that.
 
Actually, you are wrong completely. An infant, and by that I mean one of the born, is not completely dependent on someone for survival - it is socially dependent on the care of someone, but it is not biologically dependent on the biological organism of a particular individual someone. And as long as it is only socially dependent, any individual of sufficiently greater maturity can care for it. That means no specific individual has to care for it 24/7 and no individual need even have skin-to-skin tactile contact with it, because it is not impinging on anyone's biological organism. In that sense, it is no different from a mature individual who is a complete invalid.

Completely wrong? You saying so doesn’t make it so.

You’re splitting hairs. Subsisting is not a social thing; it’s a biological thing. See, this is what I’m talking about. You ‘educated people’ can define anything anyway you want to fit your thinking and agenda. An infant must be fed by someone or it will die. It’s just that simple. There is no difference between being fed by umbilical and being fed by hand, except the biological attachment. Yours is a distinction without any difference at all.
 
In real life, most HUMANS believe the little blob of cells they have in their womb is a human being, regardless of the scientific labels you decide to put on it; especially if you’re going to use those definitions/labels for the purpose of destroying that life. Being an anthropologist is not akin to being God. Like most science, definitions are more rooted in theory than actual fact.

In real life, many humans do not believe the zygote, blastocyst, embryo, or fetus is a human being, and you have shown no link proving that "most" humans believe otherwise. If a human believes that a zygote or blastocyst or embryo or fetus is in fact a human being, then that human is going to believe that its death is exactly the same as the death of a born human being. If so, then that human is going to treat the death of even a zygote the same way. And that should be true all over the world.

But we know scientifically that every woman who is sexually active and engages even in protected PIV sexual intercourse is going to have a zygote at least once every five years, so if she doesn't get pregnant in those five years, she has had at least one miscarriage and thus is the mother of a dead child even though she doesn't know when this child died. Why then are most married women and their husbands not in perpetual mourning for the deaths of these zygotes?

Indeed, why are death certificates not issued for miscarried embryos? Why then does anyone agree to making an exception for abortion to save the pregnant woman from imminent threat of death or in case of rape pregnancy? They would NEVER agree that it is okay to cause the death of an infant, a human being outside the woman's body, to save its mother's life or because it was born from a rape pregnancy.

Yet in two polls last year, NBC/Wall Street Journal found that the total percentage of people who thought abortion should be legal in all cases, most cases, and only in cases of rape, incest, and a threat to the woman's life was 87% and 89%.

Does this sound like these people believe that an embryo or fetus is the same as a born infant?

I'm not using any scientific definitions/labels for the purpose of destroying what most humans believe is a human being. The definitions/labels already exist and are used for numerous scientific purposes. Applying them in the case of abortion is just transferring them from a scientific discipline to a case of law.

I don't think an anthropologist is akin to being God. I do, however, think an anthropologist is a scientist. In science, all definitions are rooted in theory and no facts make any scientific sense whatsoever except within theory, because outside of objective empirical observation and testing within the perspective of theories, science doesn't recognize anything to exist.
 
In real life, many humans do not believe the zygote, blastocyst, embryo, or fetus is a human being, and you have shown no link proving that "most" humans believe otherwise. If a human believes that a zygote or blastocyst or embryo or fetus is in fact a human being, then that human is going to believe that its death is exactly the same as the death of a born human being. If so, then that human is going to treat the death of even a zygote the same way. And that should be true all over the world.

But we know scientifically that every woman who is sexually active and engages even in protected PIV sexual intercourse is going to have a zygote at least once every five years, so if she doesn't get pregnant in those five years, she has had at least one miscarriage and thus is the mother of a dead child even though she doesn't know when this child died. Why then are most married women and their husbands not in perpetual mourning for the deaths of these zygotes?

Indeed, why are death certificates not issued for miscarried embryos? Why then does anyone agree to making an exception for abortion to save the pregnant woman from imminent threat of death or in case of rape pregnancy? They would NEVER agree that it is okay to cause the death of an infant, a human being outside the woman's body, to save its mother's life or because it was born from a rape pregnancy.

Yet in two polls last year, NBC/Wall Street Journal found that the total percentage of people who thought abortion should be legal in all cases, most cases, and only in cases of rape, incest, and a threat to the woman's life was 87% and 89%.

Does this sound like these people believe that an embryo or fetus is the same as a born infant?

I'm not using any scientific definitions/labels for the purpose of destroying what most humans believe is a human being. The definitions/labels already exist and are used for numerous scientific purposes. Applying them in the case of abortion is just transferring them from a scientific discipline to a case of law.

I don't think an anthropologist is akin to being God. I do, however, think an anthropologist is a scientist. In science, all definitions are rooted in theory and no facts make any scientific sense whatsoever except within theory, because outside of objective empirical observation and testing within the perspective of theories, science doesn't recognize anything to exist.

Why do I have to show a link of anything? You’ve not demonstrated, outside of your opinion based on your extensive education, exactly when human life begins and that your ambiguous definition of ‘person’ is nothing more than a feeble justification for abortion.

Because most woman choose to got to term with the pregnancies, regardless of the reasons why they got pregnant, is your link – they view that child as a person. And my part of the discussion has very little to do with women that actually have abortions; my points are directed at those that find creative ways to defend it. And you certainly have all of your creative justifications in order.

And this discussion isn’t about miscarriages. There very well may be people that do death certificates for miscarried babies and even funerals. Do you have any evidence to show they don’t? I don’t have evidence that shows they do, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t so. I’d argue that it’s probably not a matter of public record. It’s indicative of the society in which we live; it goes right along with the complacency towards abortion………… no one really cares. Because no one cares is not a valid definition for ‘person’ and or ‘human’.

Your last paragraph is a cop out. Science is the search for the truth. But if you’re claiming theory exists in your claims, then you can’t spout it as fact. The door is wide open for speculation and debate……….. and here we are.
 
I see… so can you provide me where the SCOTUS consulted with the International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature when making their decision on legalizing abortion based on whether a fetus is human or not?

First, SCOTUS did not base its decision on whether or not a fetus is human because all scientists universally agree that a human fetus is human (adjective).

Not all scientists universally agree that a human fetus is "a human being" in the sense of having all of the qualifications to be classed as "a living member of the species Homo s. sapiens," given the fact that the human fetus lives as a function of a woman's
body and not as all born human beings do.

Moreover, not all of the world's great religions or even all of the Biblically based religions or even all Christian sects agree that the human fetus is "a human being" in the sense of being "a person."

Furthermore, not all philosophers agree that the human fetus is "a human being" in that sense.

Finally, the term "person" as it is used in the Constitution and its amendments and as these have been interpreted in federal court cases, including Supreme Court cases, does not imply the inclusion of the unborn. Even when court cases have addressed the issue of whether certain types of rights apply to fetuses, as with inheritance rights, the rights have always been contingent on having already been born alive.

The Supreme Court considered all of this in making its decision in the Roe v Wade case, and all of this is discussed in great detail in the majority opinion, which was written by one justice but on behalf of the majority of seven justices who completely agreed to it.

They did not need to consult the ICZN, because scientists all over the world have several different scientific views of the human unborn as of the non-human mammalian unborn, and each view coincides with the specific scientific interests of different disciplines in the biological sciences. And the scientific view that informed the Supreme Court decision was the bioecological one, because it is the only scientific view that considers the relation of the unborn to the pregnant woman and thus the socially relevant biological issue.
 
........ Even worse, we have had abortion doctors take it even a step further (Tiller and Gosnell) and commit infanticide.

Dr. Tiller did not commit infanticide.

He did not kill any born babies.

Gosnell did murder born babies and if I had been one of the jurors I would voted for the death penalty for Gosnell.



Obama, while he was in the Il senate, opposed a bill that would have banned post-birth abortions.


Illinois already had a law requiring that any babies born alive had to be cared for.
Obama wanted to keep that law in place.
” The Truth Behind False, Outrageous Lies about Obama and ”Born Alive” Legislation

Here is the statement that was issued whe President Obama was a senator in Illinois:

STATEMENT
“Senator Obama strongly supports Roe v. Wade and a woman’s right to choose. He believes that there is a moral and ethical element to this issue, and he believes that women do not make these decisions casually, but wrestle with them in consultation with their doctors, pastors and family. Senator Obama understands that some will disagree with him and choose not to support him, and he respects those with different opinions. But the recent attacks on Senator Obama that allege he would allow babies born alive to die are outrageous lies. The suggestion that Obama — the proud father of two little girls — and others who opposed these bills supported infanticide is deeply offensive and insulting. There is no room for these kinds of distortions and lies in this campaign. What Senator Obama's attackers don't tell you is that existing Illinois law already requires doctors to provide medical care in the very rare case that babies are born alive during abortions. They will not tell you that Obama voted against these laws in Illinois because they were clear attempts to undermine Roe v. Wade. They will not tell you that these laws were also opposed by pro-choice Republicans and the Illinois Medical Society — a leading association of doctors in the state. And they will not tell you that Obama has always maintained that he would have voted for the federal version of this bill, which did not pose such a threat. The bills Senator Obama voted against in Illinois were crafted to undermine Roe v. Wade or pre-existing Illinois state law regulating reproductive healthcare and medical practice, which is why Senator Obama objected to them.”



It’s reported thatPlanned Parenthood lobbyist Alisa LaPolt Snow was asked point blank: “If a baby is born on a table as a result of a botched abortion, what would Planned Parenthood want to have happen to that child that is struggling for life?” She replied: “We believe that any decision that’s made should be left up to the woman, her family, and the physician.”
Planned Parenthood said:

"Planned Parenthood condemns any physician who does not follow the law or endangers a woman's or a child's health,
but we don't believe that politicians should be the ones who decide what constitutes the best, medically appropriate treatment in any given situation,"

When one of lawmakers asked Snow what Planned Parenthood's position would be if a baby is born as a result of a botched abortion.
She said "We believe that any decision that's made should be left up to the woman, her family and the physician,"

That does mean the mom can kill the baby... It only means the mother,and her family along with the doctor can decide if extraordinary measure should be done to save the baby's life.


Even so the Born Alive law is still on the books.

From Wiki:

The Born-Alive Infants Protection Act of 2002 ("BAIPA" Pub.L. 107–207, 116 Stat. 926, enacted August 5, 2002, 1 U.S.C. § 8) is an Act of Congress. It extends legal protection to an infant born alive after a failed attempt at induced abortion. It was signed by President George W. Bush, a Republican.
Born-Alive Infants Protection Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Apparently either the Florida legislators did not know about the 'Born Alive" act or they they were just hoping to get in the news so pro life people would vote for them the next time they ran for office.


So, we are in full-slide of the slippery slope where, in the beginning, abortions were intended to occur in the first trimester for the most extreme reasons (rape, incest, life of the mother, severe mental/physical handicap) has led us to infanticide. Things you abortion advocates won’t talk about out in the open. It seems only a few brave enough to come right out and say it… “If the mother doesn’t want it after it’s born, it should be her right to terminate it”. Infanticide – Tiller, Gosnell, Obama, PP – we are there.

We are NOT there.
Tiller did not and Obama & Planned Parenthood does not avocate infanticide.

Gosnell was convicted on murder charges as well as other charges.
 
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Finally, the term "person" as it is used in the Constitution and its amendments and as these have been interpreted in federal court cases, including Supreme Court cases, does not imply the inclusion of the unborn. Even when court cases have addressed the issue of whether certain types of rights apply to fetuses, as with inheritance rights, the rights have always been contingent on having already been born alive.

“The right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness”

LIFE!

It does not say ‘the right to be a person’

It does not say ‘the right to life outside the womb’

It says the ‘right to LIFE’. Now you either believe that fetus is life or not. You obviously don’t believe an abortion is the depriving of such life.

If what you’re saying is true, no one – NO ONE – should ever be convicted of murdering a fetus. EVER! Such convictions, under your interpretation of the constitution, and our founders’ intents should be unconstitutional.
 
Dr. Tiller did not commit infanticide.

He did not kill any born babies.

Gosnell did murder born babies and if I had been one of the jurors I would voted for the death penalty for Gosnell.






Illinois already had a law requiring that any babies born alive had to be cared for.
Obama wanted to keep that law in place.
” The Truth Behind False, Outrageous Lies about Obama and ”Born Alive” Legislation

Here is the statement that was issued whe President Obama was a senator in Illinois:






Planned Parenthood said:


That does mean the mom can kill the baby... It only means the mother,and her family along with the doctor can decide if extraordinary measure should be done to save the baby's life.


Even so the Born Alive law is still on the books.

From Wiki:


Born-Alive Infants Protection Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Apparently either the Florida legislators did not know about the 'Born Alive" act or they they were just hoping to get in the news so pro life people would vote for them the next time they ran for office.




We are NOT there.
Tiller did not and Obama & Planned Parenthood does not avocate infanticide.

Gosnell was convicted on murder charges as well as other charges.

Well, you pretty much source nothing. For all I know your quotes are your words. Sources! Sources!

Obama voted against a law (that was identical to a proposed federal law) that would ban the practice of post-birth ‘abortions’.

I gave you a source and quote from a PP spokesperson who advocated that it should be the right of the mother to terminate the life of a baby still alive in a botched abortion.

If you don’t want to believe that partial birth abortions – the entire baby is birthed except the head – is infanticide then I think you exemplify the part of our society that has no regard for human life.

Gosnell is what is becoming a growing sentiment towards how far we are willing to go to justify abortion. As I mentioned… we went from first term abortions for the most extreme cases, to any term on demand for any reason, to late term/partial birth, to advocating infanticide and even performing infanticide.
 
It exhibits life signs from the moment of conception. What would you call that splitting of the egg cell after fertilization? There is a complexity of things happening at that very moment. Things science still doesn’t understand. Predetermined assignments through instructions from DNA start telling every cell where it’s supposed to go and what it’s supposed to do. It’s not a random event; everything is predefined through DNA. THAT IS WHAT WE CALL LIFE. Life isn’t just the mass of flesh, organs, and blood as a collective to make up a species. Life is the process that occurs on its own in a predetermined manner from the very beginning of conception.

Excuse me, but an unfertilized oocyte exhibits life when it is alive and does not exhibit life when it is dead and the same thing is true of sperm. Some oocytes begin to grow and mature, and others die by atresia. Only live oocytes can be used for zygote formation, and if they are dead, zygotes do not form.

Yes, I agree that a zygote is alive, and a blastocyst is independently alive, unless it dies. But all mammalian zygotes/blastocysts have a very short natural independent biological life span. We know this from scientific experiments.

A mammalian blastocyst in a petri dish with oxygen-rich nutrient of the strength available in the mammalian uterus lives independently there for as long as it lives in the uterus prior to implantation - the length of time depends on each species, and for the human blastocyst, it is 8-10 days.

But the most powerful scientific supernutrient known will keep a mammalian blastocyst alive long enough to double the preimplantation life span. We only know this from experiments with non-human blastocysts, because it is illegal to grow a human blastocyst in a petri dish for longer than 14 days, but it can be extrapolated that the doubling would be the same for human as for other mammalian blastocysts.

No experiment has seen even one mammalian blastocyst continue living beyond the doubling of the preimplantation life span. They all die. By extrapolation, then, the natural biological life span of a human blastocyst in a petri dish with the most powerful scientific nutrient known can be 16-20 days. But that is shorter than the duration between a woman's menstrual periods. Hence, in the woman, even if that nutrient were in the uterus and could double the human blastocyst's lifespan, the human blastocyst would die before being flushed out in menstruation.

This means that, like all other mammalian blastocysts, the human one can only live in biological independence as a blastocyst and then die. It cannot go through organogenesis and further development without implantation in the woman's body.

Thus, the development of the phenotype of a member of its species does not occur based only on the genotype, i.e., the DNA. It occurs because the blastocyst is implanted into a body of that species already exhibiting that phenotype and, as an embryo, lives as a part of that body, receiving oxygen and nutrients and antibodies from that body's blood, which is how that body's organs and limbs live, save only that, in the case of the embryo, a placenta is needed for this reception.

On one hand, if the placenta+embryo becomes biologically disconnected from the endometrial tissue of the body involved, it immediately dies. On the other hand, if the placenta+embryo stays biologically connected to the endometrial tissue but the body of the female dies, the placenta+embryo dies. The same thing is true for the placenta+fetus up to the point where development has been sufficient for viability outside the body. There are no exceptions to this. Viability of the individual fetus depends on sufficient development to be able to breathe oxygen instead of taking it in from the blood circulating in the live body of the female. If that is attained, then even if the female dies, as long as the fetus is removed quickly enough, it will survive.

To me, all that means is that, though a zygote/blastocyst has a short independent biological life span of its own, it is incapable of developing into a phenotypic member of its species without living for a significant period of time as an actual part of the body of a live phenotypic member of its species. During that period of time, it is part of that larger body, not a biologically independent individual, and we can't grow it in biological independence of that larger body.

To me, it is obvious that the woman with no zygote formed is just a human female biological unit. The woman with a zygote formed or a blastocyst growing but not implanted is just a human female biological unit with the potential to become pregnant if implantation of a live blastocyst occurs. The pregnant woman is a woman in whom implantation has occurred and is therefore a woman+placenta/embryo biological unit. There is no separate "life of the embryo." All of the life involved after implantation is the woman's life, and the embryo is part of the woman's body and has continued life just as the woman's limbs and organs have continued life.

Why should it not make a difference that the DNA of the embryo is different? Because when a person receives an organ transplant, the transplanted organ has different DNA, but the only reason it does not die is that it is functioning as a biological part of the recipient's live body.

To me, this is the meaning of the Biblical saying that children are "the fruit" of the woman - they are to her as apples are to an apple tree, regardless of the fact that the zygote could not form without the spermatic contribution, and when they are sufficiently ripened, they come out of her body and are separate from it.

What is predetermined for the biologically independent mammalian blastocyst is death as a blastocyst. Without becoming part of the woman's body, it could never have the phenotype of a member of the human species, let alone live as an equal member of the human species.

Living as an equal member of the human species means living in biological independence from that woman's body, and that is what the Supreme Court majority opinion meant by "meaningful" human life.
 
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...

If you don’t want to believe that partial birth abortions – the entire baby is birthed except the head – is infanticide then I think you exemplify the part of our society that has no regard for human life.

I will post the sorces later when I have access to my files.

I know how a partial birth abortion ( proper name is intact D & E ) is done.
I also know ethical doctors like Dr. Tiller would not start a partial birth abortion on a fetus older than 20 weeks gestation unless or until the fetus was already dead.

It is a law that any fetus over 20 weeks gestation has to be given a lethal injection before an abortion starts.
Once the fetus is dead the bones start to soften.
This also helps prevent the womans cervix from being damaged by the abortion.

Intact D & E ( partial birth abortion ) are now banned in the USA.
 
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That’s not what that means at all. Enumeration is outlined in the constitution and the bill of rights. Anything outside of that belongs to the states, or the people. Can you show me where it is enumerated the right to an abortion?

But, as I stated… as much as I disagree with the SCOTUS’s decision on RvW I respect it. Through the process of elections and resulting appointments, the people have spoken; even though the vast majority of people disagree with abortion.

And I’ve also stated on more personal-liberties grounds that I don’t want abortion banned by any government. If you were to talk about ‘the people’ having control, I want it to be the people that reject this practice. If we, as a collective, can’t do that then abortion it is. But this, along with so many other things happening in our society that aim to cheapen life, I am content with having my thoughts, opinions, and beliefs on the matter and letting society deal with the consequences. Someone asked ‘what consequences?’ RvW was never intended to approve late-term or partial birth abortion. Yet we have them. Even worse, we have had abortion doctors take it even a step further (Tiller and Gosnell) and commit infanticide. Obama, while he was in the Il senate, opposed a bill that would have banned post-birth abortions. It’s reported that Planned Parenthood supports post-birth abortions.

Planned Parenthood lobbyist Alisa LaPolt Snow was asked point blank: “If a baby is born on a table as a result of a botched abortion, what would Planned Parenthood want to have happen to that child that is struggling for life?” She replied: “We believe that any decision that’s made should be left up to the woman, her family, and the physician.”
So, we are in full-slide of the slippery slope where, in the beginning, abortions were intended to occur in the first trimester for the most extreme reasons (rape, incest, life of the mother, severe mental/physical handicap) has led us to infanticide. Things you abortion advocates won’t talk about out in the open. It seems only a few brave enough to come right out and say it… “If the mother doesn’t want it after it’s born, it should be her right to terminate it”. Infanticide – Tiller, Gosnell, Obama, PP – we are there.

You have failed to read these amendments carefully. The Ninth Amendment says that "the people," not the states, may have rights unenumerated in the Constitution and its amendments. That means individual people may have such rights. The Tenth Amendment says that powers not given to the federal government and not forbidden to the states belong to the states respectively or the people: "the people" is not an alternative designation for "the states."

Together, these amendments imply that the Constitution may imply that certain powers are forbidden to the states if the Constitution implies unenumerated rights of individual people that would be violated by a state's assertion of those powers.

You are a government guy who thinks that state governments have the power to coercively control individual people in the states unless the Constitution has enumerated rights of individual people that would make that coercion unconstitutional. That is objectively incorrect.

The individual right of privacy is not enumerated in the Constitution. It is, however, implied by several enumerated rights. The link I provided on the right of privacy cites all the places in the Constitution relevant to that right.

The question the Supreme Court addressed was whether or not the implied individual right of privacy was broad enough to encompass a woman's choice to have an abortion, to control her own reproduction, and that court's answer was "yes." You may dislike this decision, but it is not the only decision - Planned Parenthood v Casey and other cases related to abortion reiterated this core of the Roe v Wade decision, even though some of the justices of the Roe v Wade court were gone and new justices had taken their place.

Roe v Wade is not "approval" of any abortion. It is a decision that clarifies the limits of state power vis-a-vis individual pregnant women, who are equal to all other individual persons with a right to privacy implied by the Constitution.

It said the states individually had the power to assert their interest in protecting potential human life when this interest became compelling and it said that interest became compelling at the point where a 50/50 chance of fetal viability was attained, to the extent of banning abortion after that point, but they would have to make exceptions to protect a woman's life and health.

One would think the reason for the exceptions is obvious, but in case you don't see it, the individual woman has a right to life and a right to self-defense of at least her major health functions.

Not all state legislatures wanted to assert their compelling interest at that point, so we have some states which, like Oregon, do not ban late-term abortion. There is frankly nothing wrong with this. Roe v Wade wasn't about the fetus or any possible fetal rights. It was about the relation between the rights of the individual woman and the powers of the state.

Any doctor who commits infanticide is committing a crime against a person. I know of no example of Tiller committing such a crime. Gosnell actually did commit infanticide, and thus was found to be guilty of a crime.

Obama chose not to vote for the Illinois bill you mention because there was already a law in Illinois that covered that issue. There was no need for that bill.

As for your claims about PP, together with your out of context quotation, you have missed the point. It is the medical professional's job as a specialized expert in medicine to decide what care is appropriate for a patient. State legislators are rarely qualified medical professionals, so they should not decide what care is appropriate for a patient.

Yes, some medical professionals commit malpractice, like Gosnell, and they should certainly be prosecuted for it. But any decision as to a specific form of malpractice should be determined by the medical community, not a legislature that has not consulted the professional medical organizations directly relevant to determining what is and what is not malpractice.

The PP lobbyist, like the legislators, has no business exhibiting any preference beyond a preference for appropriate treatment. Deciding what is appropriate should be left to qualified medical professionals or professional medical organizations should be consulted before forming an institutional policy.

So we are not on a slippery slope. The Supreme Court did not intend abortions to occur in the first trimester for the most extreme reasons. It simply intended to consult the Constitution, decisions in federal court cases, and other relevant sources in order to decide whether the Texas anti-abortion law was constitutional or unconstitutional, and why and in what areas it was constitutional and/or why and in what areas it was unconstitutional.

Gosnell was a criminal, no doubt about that. Tiller? I don't see it. Obama? You're crazy. PP? You're judging a worldwide organization based on a single lobbyist - that's not even consulting the head of PP. The extreme people who actually say that a woman should have a right to terminate a born infant? They're as crazy as you are.
 
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1. Your education tells you that a fetus doesn’t become a person until it’s born, that’s a theory. You can define something like that any way you want to in order to fit a specific agenda. Everything I have read from you abortion advocates is nothing more than theory and opinion, and you demand laws and policies be devised around it.

2. I err on the side of caution that if there is one iota of possibility that the fetus being aborted is actually a human, with a soul, with feelings, can actually feel the pain of being ripped apart; that if it could scream out in pain it would… I am against abortion. I don’t need a Harvard education in anything to teach me that.

1. Mmmmm theory? :lol: Once this question get's answer ''What mental abilities do people (persons) have that distinguish them from ordinary animals?'' You will see once that is answer the unborn human will objectively fail to qualify as a person in anyway. The law in your guy's country are inconsistent on the matter and once when that questioned is answered, the definition of ''person'' will indeed change and all of this ''unborn protection act'' nonsense will disappear unless you want to discriminate against artificial intelligences and extraterrestrial life forms. The universe is too big and the possibilities of non human persons existing is very real indeed. So, it's best now what should be used to determine personhood than to be sorry later and it can't focus on the ''humanness'' of the entity either.

2. Science has already told us unborn humans have none of the mental abilities that separate persons from ordinary animals because newborn humans don't have them either so logically unborn humans don't have them either.
 
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“The right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness”

LIFE!

It does not say ‘the right to be a person’

It does not say ‘the right to life outside the womb’

It says the ‘right to LIFE’. Now you either believe that fetus is life or not. You obviously don’t believe an abortion is the depriving of such life.

If you have actually read through the American Constitution you would've noticed it uses the word person throughout without mentioning the word human once.

If the unborn human is not a person, than the constitution and everything else doesn't apply to it.
 
If you have actually read through the American Constitution you would've noticed it uses the word person throughout without mentioning the word human once.

If the unborn human is not a person, than the constitution and everything else doesn't apply to it.

Exactly.

The DOI claimed that all 'men' are entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

In the years following, SCOTUS made deliberate rulings that ensured that women and blacks were included in that declaration. In Roe vs. Wade, they made a deliberate ruling that fetuses were not. They explicitly said fetuses were not persons. (Minnie has that text too, lol).

So that does not apply to the unborn.
 
The operative word ‘OPINION’; with all your education, all you’re left with is your opinion. Scientists like to run around talking about their theories as fact. Physicists like to claim black holes as real. I’m not doubting they are, but no one has really seen one, so it’s really just a theory, not absolute proof. Environmentalists love running around claiming the world is coming to an end because of global warming; and that it’s man causing it. Even though we’ve only been on this earth (according to science) about 400,000 of the 4.5 billion years the earth has existed and global climates take eons to make real change on a global scale, global warming advocates belief they have enough data to conclude we are warming, and that this warming is dangerous, and that man is causing it. They run around spouting this as truth and demand all sorts of political laws and policies to be devised around it.

Your education tells you that a fetus doesn’t become a person until it’s born, that’s a theory. You can define something like that any way you want to in order to fit a specific agenda. Everything I have read from you abortion advocates is nothing more than theory and opinion, and you demand laws and policies be devised around it.

I err on the side of caution that if there is one iota of possibility that the fetus being aborted is actually a human, with a soul, with feelings, can actually feel the pain of being ripped apart; that if it could scream out in pain it would… I am against abortion. I don’t need a Harvard education in anything to teach me that.

You really do not understand what science is. Science made up of absolutely nothing but theories, parts of which have been objectively empirically tested through the formation of testable hypotheses which have then been risked in controlled experiments and/or controlled objective empirical observation. When enough hypotheses survive these tests enough to support enough of the theories' propositions, those theories are held as "relatively true" unless or until enough parts of the theories can be falsified by further controlled experiments or controlled objective empirical observation.

No objective empirical facts are directly observed by anyone in the world. They are all observed through the mental lens of some sort of theory, however informal or unstated, because facts are nothing but mentally generated claims about the objective empirical universe.

The reason science is respected more than mere opinion is that mere opinion is not based on theory stated in propositions for which testable hypotheses have been formed and risked in controlled testing or observation that could support, dilute, or refute them. Genuine scientists exhibit humility and modesty by risking the failure of their hypotheses in controlled testing and observation and by publishing their failures and partial failures as well as their supportive results. They claim only relative truth and leave open the possibility of further testing that may raze their theoretical edifices.

This is a modest, courageous, democratically oriented path aimed at discovering truth, notwithstanding those who do not stay on it but arrogantly refuse to admit the weaknesses and limitations of their theories.

Environmentalists in the sense you mean the word are not scientists. They are advocates, not testers, of a particular theory of global warming or climate change. You wrong actual scientists who work on this and other theories of climate change in the scientific manner, and who usually make much more modest claims for those theories than political lobbyists and popularizers.

My education doesn't tell me that a fetus doesn't become a person until birth. That was my intuition from the time I learned "the facts of life." And yes, that's a theory and not a scientific one. Because "person" is not a scientific term unless it is used in a science for purposes of scientific inquiry, and when it is so used, it is given a precise definition directly related to the purposes of scientific inquiry involved.

Yes, all terms in science are arbitrarily defined by such purposes. This makes science more precise and consistent than ordinary thought and practice, where people use terms very imprecisely to mean whatever they want them to mean at the time they use them.

I understand and respect the desire to err on the side of caution. What I do not understand is why you direct all of that caution toward the fetus and direct none of it toward the woman. We all already agree that the woman is a person, a human being, and a member of Homo s. sapiens, so the question for you is whether or not the fetus is one also - and whether or not the zygote is one also.

You claim that it is. If so, you could not reasonably support any abortion for any reason but to save the woman's biological life, not even if it meant that the woman would be permanently paralyzed or remain in a coma for the rest of her life, not even if the pregnancy was traceable to a rape and the woman would become incurably insane.

My Ivy League education just makes it easier for me to see that this is the direct, logical outcome of that claim and to evaluate the claim, which is only a theory, in terms of that logical outcome. And what I see is that this logical outcome is one which would, at the extreme, obliterate all the aspects of the woman's human life which are distinctively human and so differentiate it from the life of a single cell or even a cockroach except for her DNA.

You see, I know that the woman is a member of Homo s. sapiens, a human being, and a person (and so do you), and I know that no zygote, blastocyst, embryo, or non-viable fetus has ever become any of those things unequivocally in the absence of the life of that woman. I also know it is completely legal for this woman to choose to commit suicide if she finds the prospect of such a reduction to mere biological existence unacceptable, and this would end the possibility of that zygote, blastocyst, embryo, or non-viable fetus unequivocally becoming what that woman already was.

And I, who was once raped and had to face the possibility of rape pregnancy at a time before home pregnancy tests and Plan B and Roe v Wade, understand that, because I planned my own suicide as insurance for the worst case scenario of being pregnant via rape and unable to get a legal abortion in the US, to afford getting one abroad, or to find a source for an illegal abortion. It was only because I turned out not to be pregnant that I did not carry out my plan. So I know that some forms of torture are, for a person, far worse than the prospect of biological death.

And I come back to Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If I were a blastocyst, I would prefer to come to my own individual natural end than violate the sanity and integrity of a person, and if I were a woman, I would prefer to come to my own individual natural end than be so violated as a person.

In this way, I move way light years beyond science, where I still find that I have to err on the other side of caution.
 
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Exactly.

The DOI claimed that all 'men' are entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

I love when pro lifers bring up the DOI because all they're doing with that is think that a claim some humans made well over 200 years ago is still accurate today.

''Actions speak louder than words'' if the American founding father's thought that was true than they would've included unborn humans in the census as persons. Guess what? They didn't. :) It was good women and blacks got rights because hey they had mental abilities that distinguishes persons from mere animals and it's good they got rights.

So all that nonsense they wrote with nothing more but rhetoric in my opinion with the DOI.
 
Completely wrong? You saying so doesn’t make it so.

You’re splitting hairs. Subsisting is not a social thing; it’s a biological thing. See, this is what I’m talking about. You ‘educated people’ can define anything anyway you want to fit your thinking and agenda. An infant must be fed by someone or it will die. It’s just that simple. There is no difference between being fed by umbilical and being fed by hand, except the biological attachment. Yours is a distinction without any difference at all.

You fail to note one thing.

Being fed by an umbilical cord means, if the woman does not consent, that one must violate a person's consent and bodily integrity in order to live, and being fed by hand means, if the woman does not consent, that there are enough others who may consent that one need not violate a person's consent to live, and that one need never violate a person's bodily integrity in order to live.

You fail to note that because you take account only of the fetus and the infant and not the woman.

You see and hear right through her actual body and screams of non-consent, as if she were transparent and silent, and see only an image that you imagine or encounter only in sonogram representation available to you only by her consent and hear only a scream never made.
 
Why do I have to show a link of anything? You’ve not demonstrated, outside of your opinion based on your extensive education, exactly when human life begins and that your ambiguous definition of ‘person’ is nothing more than a feeble justification for abortion.

Because most woman choose to got to term with the pregnancies, regardless of the reasons why they got pregnant, is your link – they view that child as a person. And my part of the discussion has very little to do with women that actually have abortions; my points are directed at those that find creative ways to defend it. And you certainly have all of your creative justifications in order.

And this discussion isn’t about miscarriages. There very well may be people that do death certificates for miscarried babies and even funerals. Do you have any evidence to show they don’t? I don’t have evidence that shows they do, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t so. I’d argue that it’s probably not a matter of public record. It’s indicative of the society in which we live; it goes right along with the complacency towards abortion………… no one really cares. Because no one cares is not a valid definition for ‘person’ and or ‘human’.

Your last paragraph is a cop out. Science is the search for the truth. But if you’re claiming theory exists in your claims, then you can’t spout it as fact. The door is wide open for speculation and debate……….. and here we are.

Here is a link that contains a section on five current scientific theories of when human life begins (after a section on some historical views):
http://biology.franklincollege.edu/Bioweb/Biology/course_p/bioethics/When does human life begin.pdf

Yours is termed the genetic view. Mine is termed the ecological view. There are three others and more than one version of one of those three is discussed.

A woman can choose to carry a pregnancy to term without viewing the zygote, blastocyst, embryo, or fetus as a person and without viewing herself as a mother. She may speak of growing a body for a baby, look forward to motherhood, think of pregnancy as making a baby, think of herself as an expectant mother and say, "I can't wait to be a mother," etc., and think only of the baby, child, or person in the future tense. That is frequently how pro-choice pregnant women who want to have babies understand their pregnancies.

What you seem to be missing is that pregnant women who are happy to be pregnant and want to become mothers do not necessarily share your view of pregnancy or embryos or themselves.

Of course this discussion is about miscarriages, because, in medical terms, miscarriages are spontaneous abortions in contrast to induced abortions, but they are still abortions because they are terminations of pregnancies other than birth.

In other countries, the original death record at a hospital is usually treated as the death certificate, but in the US, the death certificate has to be issued by the government and applied for.

The site below shows how the US government deals with the issue of unborn death, as it involves the state department regulations:
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/157327.pdf
Here, I'm just citing parts of it, because it's very long.

Form FS-240, A Consular Report of Birth Abroad of a Citizen of the United States of America (CRBA), may be issued to a child born abroad to a U.S. citizen parent(s) who dies shortly after birth, if requested by the parent(s). . . .

In the case of a stillborn child, the consular officer may issue a Form DS-2060, Report of Death of an American Citizen Abroad, provided local authorities have issued a death certificate or the attending physician provides a statement regarding the stillbirth, and the parents submit required evidence of their own identity and citizenship. . . .

Form DS-2060, Report of Death of an American Citizen Abroad, or Form FS-240, CRBA, are not issued for a miscarriage. If it is a late term miscarriage which would be considered a stillbirth in the United States and the family asks for such a document, address questions to . . . , which will provide immediate guidance regarding issuance of Form DS-2060 . . . .

In the United States, a miscarriage (or spontaneous abortion) usually refers to a pregnancy loss before 20 weeks of gestation, and a stillbirth refers to a loss after 20 weeks. If the age is not known, then a baby weighing 350 or more grams is considered a stillbirth. Stillbirths are further classified in the United States as either early, late-term, or post-term. The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention advise:

An early stillbirth is a fetal death occurring between 20 and 27 completed weeks of gestation.
A late stillbirth occurs between 28 and 36 completed weeks.
A stillbirth occurring between 37 and 40 completed weeks is considered a term stillbirth.

Please note that miscarriages are treated differently from stillbirths and that stillbirths are treated differently than live births followed by early deaths.

Different states have different practices in the US. Here is a site on reporting requirements in different states for live births, fetal deaths, and induced terminations of pregnancy:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/misc/itop97.pdf

In New York, while you can request a certificate of spontaneous termination of pregnancy for a 20 week or pre-20 week fetus and a certificate of stillbirth for a post-20 week fetus, you do not get a certificate of death, which is only given for the born.

Here's a site of a Georgia hospital which clarifies that you can get a fetal death certificate in case of a miscarriage prior to 20 weeks, but not a birth certificate, while you can get both kinds of certificates if the miscarriage/stillbirth was at 20 weeks or more.
Certificates - Northside Hospital*H.E.A.R.T.strings perinatal Bereavement Office


Re science. As I said earlier, you do not understand science. In science, no fact exists outside of a theory because all objective empirical phenomena acknowledged to exist are conceptualized in terms of particular theories. Different theories within a discipline can share many of the same empirical referents but conceptualize them in different relationships or as having different properties: the term "fact" doesn't refer just to the referents but to the referents in relationships or with different properties.

A simple example from physics is that "particle" and "wave" are different conceptualizations of an empirical referent. ""Particles" exist as facts in particle theory and "waves" exist as facts in wave theory, but neither description is entirely accurate for the empirical referent in objective empirical reality, for which there is no other, neutral term in physics.

You actually don't understand this?
 
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She was born, so she was a baby....why wouldnt she call her that?

Her location does not and did not change who or what she was. If she had no value at 20 weeks inside the womb, why does that change when she's outside the womb?
 
Her location does not and did not change who or what she was. If she had no value at 20 weeks inside the womb, why does that change when she's outside the womb?

The distinction is clearly defined in the dictionary. Any value or personification beyond that is valid from the mother/parents only...if they choose to invest it.
 
Her location does not and did not change who or what she was. If she had no value at 20 weeks inside the womb, why does that change when she's outside the womb?

X, that's a bait. You still ignore the facts. I clearly pointed out to you in my last reply to you that only 1.5% of abortions occur from the 20th week and up. The only way that most abortions preformed at that stage of development is normally because the fetus is seriously malformed or dead or the welfare of the woman is in serious peril.

Now you continue to make arguments that simply aren't connected to the realities that are involved with abortion. There is no one shoe fits all when determining values of an unborn VS A BORN as seen by every person in our nation.

However:

I know for a fact that you're way, way smarter than to even think all pro-choice women have zero value for the unborn. That's a totally inflammatory accusation. It's completely not true. I can see Tigger, Bob, or Jay making such claims...but not you.

You can't begin to know all of the variable life circumstances, which defines reasons, motive, or possible situations that drive women to make the very serious choice to have an abortion.

You also well know that once that first breath is breathed...a newborn is a new citizen who is entitle to all of the fundamental rights of all of the other born citizens. These newborn folks are granted the right to life, liberty, property and self-determination. But you know that. If another born person choose to violate the newborn, they will be subject to all applying laws.

Now you can be angry as hell that the unborn don't assume the same rights as the born...once conception occurs. That's your choice. But while your engaged in your anger...you might be willing to look at all of the unintended consequences of granting right of the born to the unborn...and there are MANY. In fact, I put together 2 different threads on unintended consequences because there is so much content that I wasn't allowed to enter that much data on one thread.

Thanks..
 
X, that's a bait. You still ignore the facts. I clearly pointed out to you in my last reply to you that only 1.5% of abortions occur from the 20th week and up. The only way that most abortions preformed at that stage of development is normally because the fetus is seriously malformed or dead or the welfare of the woman is in serious peril.

Now you continue to make arguments that simply aren't connected to the realities that are involved with abortion. There is no one shoe fits all when determining values of an unborn VS A BORN as seen by every person in our nation.

However:

I know for a fact that you're way, way smarter than to even think all pro-choice women have zero value for the unborn. That's a totally inflammatory accusation. It's completely not true. I can see Tigger, Bob, or Jay making such claims...but not you.

You can't begin to know all of the variable life circumstances, which defines reasons, motive, or possible situations that drive women to make the very serious choice to have an abortion.

You also well know that once that first breath is breathed...a newborn is a new citizen who is entitle to all of the fundamental rights of all of the other born citizens. These newborn folks are granted the right to life, liberty, property and self-determination. But you know that. If another born person choose to violate the newborn, they will be subject to all applying laws.

Now you can be angry as hell that the unborn don't assume the same rights as the born...once conception occurs. That's your choice. But while your engaged in your anger...you might be willing to look at all of the unintended consequences of granting right of the born to the unborn...and there are MANY. In fact, I put together 2 different threads on unintended consequences because there is so much content that I wasn't allowed to enter that much data on one thread.

Thanks..

I watched as my friend's baby developed in the womb and if my friend had decided to destroy him, then that cute, funny, happy little guy that I know wouldn't be here. Instead, he would have suffered a violent death. That's just not ok with me. Explain it to me though, how you can value something while at the same supporting the choice to destroy it?
 
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