libertarianism and abortion [W:294]

[zgoldsmith23]

Am I the only Pro Choice Libertarian on this forum?

Hell no, I buy my coat hangers in bulk from Costco for that very reason. :lol:

But in all reality, no, I identify as such, too.

Oh boy a YouTube video. Let's not act like this video wasn't one big fallacious appeal to emotion, either.

 

[JayDubya]

Opinion, that's all there is to this debate. In yours it begins at conception, in mine it begins at around the end of second trimester dependant on the foetus.

No, I'm not stating an opinion. That's objective scientific fact.

They should have and it is their fault that they have an unwanted baby.

Indeed. So why do you think they should have a special privilege to kill in order to abdicate responsibility? They already made a pretty relevant "choice," here.

Own Stupidity? For not being guaranteed a safe abortion, she is stupid due to people denying her the right to an abortion she is stupid?

Hiring a black market killer or doing it yourself are both pretty stupid, yeah. People that dumb are why we have Darwin Awards.

She would probably have taken that action since she had no viable alternative. She could just give birth to the child and then die, since the child has no one to look after it as well, two deaths as opposed to a safe abortion.

It's not safe given that nearly 100% of the time an innocent human being is killed. The ones doing the killing, well, their deaths are arguably desirable after that point, or at the very least, not a bad thing.

 

[JayDubya]

This is what we call obtuse

Also: "completely useless" and "a waste of time."

 

[Spriggs05]

How about an unwanted child? You do realize there is a long waiting list for new born babies. All would be adopted if not aborted including those with birth defects.

However once, born and emotional attachment is likely to be made making it harder for the birth mother to let go of her child: https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/f_impact/f_impact.cfm

Grieving the Loss of the Child

Grieving Other Losses

Guilt and Shame

Identity Issues

Long-Term Issues.

Heck in the Marines we were taught that the Vietnamese werent human so it was fine to kill them. The Germans in WW2 were taught that Jews werent human and it was fine to kill them as well

That's just racist from them.

.

 

[Spriggs05]

Hell no, I buy my coat hangers in bulk from Costco for that very reason. :lol:

But in all reality, no, I identify as such, too.

Well that makes two of us confirmed, anyone else?

 

[Gawain]

However once, born and emotional attachment is likely to be made making it harder for the birth mother to let go of her child: https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/f_impact/f_impact.cfm














That's just racist from them.

.

I thought the child was unwanted. Make up your mind

Abortion is one of the most racist things going on in the US.

BlackGenocide.org | Abortion and the Black Community

 

[Spriggs05]

Indeed. So why do you think they should have a special privilege to kill in order to abdicate responsibility? They already made a pretty relevant "choice," here.

To be honest she could have at least used a morning after pill, or are you opposed to contraception as well?

Hiring a black market killer or doing it yourself are both pretty stupid, yeah. People that dumb are why we have Darwin Awards.

True, but when you have no other options it is something you may try.

It's not safe given that nearly 100% of the time an innocent human being is killed.

Again opinion on when a foetus becomes a human being. Different for different people. Tell me, are you one of those people who believes that abortion is wrong but will allow others to have one or one who wants a total ban?

 

[JayDubya]

Tell me, are you one of those people who believes that abortion is wrong but will allow others to have one or one who wants a total ban?

No, I'm not the former - those people make no sense.

Abortion is a human rights abuse comparable to slavery; it should be banned the same way, via constitutional amendment.

 

[jonny5]

Am I the only Pro Choice Libertarian on this forum?

I would consider myself such. I dont like abortion, but its their body to do with it as they want. However, we should probably be doing more to try and prevent unwanted pregnancy in the first place (no, not by making more laws).

 

[Spriggs05]

I thought the child was unwanted. Make up your mind.

Unwanted till birth potentially.

Abortion is one of the most racist things going on in the US

BlackGenocide.org | Abortion and the Black Community

Don't bring race into the abortion thread, it could turn out worse than the Z/M thread.

Also its their choice that they have an abortion race has nothing to do with it. What's your point for this?

 

[Spriggs05]

I would consider myself such. I dont like abortion, but its their body to do with it as they want. However, we should probably be doing more to try and prevent unwanted pregnancy in the first place (no, not by making more laws).

So tolerant pro life maybe? Fair enough either way.

 

[AGENT J]

Being a pro-abortion libertarian makes as much sense as being a pro-slavery libertarian.

If grievous human rights abuses are going on to some of the human population around you, just not you, that still doesn't make it okay... not if you want a free society that cares about and protects human rights. That's the basic, bedrock function of government, the night watchman. And that's the function we the people have to keep working through our own vigilance, lest we have a failed government that needs to be replaced.

except the human rights of the woman they dont matter in your view, you want to use force to take them away but sorry many people care about them and they care about BOTH lives, you are free to only care about one just dont expect others to agree with your inequality.

 

[Gawain]

Unwanted till birth potentially.



Don't bring race into the abortion thread, it could turn out worse than the Z/M thread.

Also its their choice that they have an abortion race has nothing to do with it. What's your point for this?

So they dont want it until they realize what they have? You also realize I hope that many a mother has been scared psychologically from this practice.

One of the main purposes of abortion is to keep down the black population and that of the poor. Sorry if you cant handle the truth.

 

[Gawain]

except the human rights of the woman they dont matter in your view, you want to use force to take them away but sorry many people care about them and they care about BOTH lives, you are free to only care about one just dont expect others to agree with your inequality.

What right is this? To kill her unborn child? What of the childs rights? Is the mothers right to be free of her child more important than that childs right to live?

 

[Spriggs05]

No, I'm not the former - those people make no sense.

Abortion is a human rights abuse comparable to slavery; it should be banned the same way, via constitutional amendment.

Its against Libertarianism to force them not to have an abortion the same as it is to force them to have one as both are guilty of coercion against an individual. Its a human rights violation to deny them the ability to consider having a legal abortion. Amnesty international, the human rights watchdog supports abortion in cases of rape, health, etc. You however advocate a blanket ban, therefore a violation of human rights is described by you. From the World Health Organisation:

Reproductive rights rest on the recognition of the basic right of all couples and individuals to decide freely and responsibly the number, spacing and timing of their children and to have the information and means to do so, and the right to attain the highest standard of sexual and reproductive health. They also include the right of all to make decisions concerning reproduction free of discrimination and coercion

Looking for evidence that its not this thread came up on google: http://www.debatepolitics.com/abortion/153894-abortion-violation-human-rights-w-948-a.html

 

[Spriggs05]

So they dont want it until they realize what they have? You also realize I hope that many a mother has been scared psychologically from this practice.

One of the main purposes of abortion is to keep down the black population and that of the poor. Sorry if you cant handle the truth.

How? If they chose to have it more than others then how is it a conspiracy to keep the black and poor populations down?

 

[Gawain]

Its against Libertarianism to force them not to have an abortion the same as it is to force them to have one as both are guilty of coercion against an individual. Its a human rights violation to deny them the ability to consider having a legal abortion. Amnesty international, the human rights watchdog supports abortion in cases of rape, health, etc. You however advocate a blanket ban, therefore a violation of human rights is described by you. From the World Health Organisation:



Looking for evidence that its not this thread came up on google: http://www.debatepolitics.com/abortion/153894-abortion-violation-human-rights-w-948-a.html

You can not force someone not to have an abortion. You can only make it harder. I hope you all realize that abortion was legal in every state before Roe vs Wade. So your argument is pretty much a straw dog.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Your a rare breed thats for sure. Most libertarians lean right. We dont support socialism or murder.:lol:

Let's say the baby will be born with multiple health issues. Would you be willing to be a "socialist" and help to support that human life once it's born if the family cannot?

 

[Spriggs05]

You can not force someone not to have an abortion.

Allow me to rephrase - You can force law abiding citizens to not have an abortion.

I hope you all realize that abortion was legal in every state before Roe vs Wade. So your argument is pretty much a straw dog

What was that about straw dog?

Abortion in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The criminalization of abortion accelerated during the 1860s, and by 1900 it was generally considered a felony in every state.

The legal position prior to Roe v. Wade was that abortion was illegal in 30 states and legal under certain circumstances in 20 states

The map shows that abortion on request was legal in 4 states, legal in case danger to woman's health, rape or incest, or likely damaged fetus in 13, Legal in case of danger to woman's health in 2 and Legal in case of rape in 1. It was Illegal in all the other 30 states.

 

[Gawain]

How? If they chose to have it more than others then how is it a conspiracy to keep the black and poor populations down?

The question is why do they choose to have it

Margaret Sanger's Eugenic Legacy
At least 23 of the 50 members of the National Council of Sanger's American Birth Control League (founded in 1921), the precursor to today's Planned Parenthood, were also members of the American Eugenics Society or public supporters of the eugenics agenda. Eugenicists believed that many of the world's economic and social ills were a result of "overbreeding" of the poor or "feebleminded."

An article by Sanger in her journal, The Birth Control Review, put it this way: "[T]he most urgent problem today is how to limit and discourage the overfertility of the mentally and physically defective."

They claimed that poverty in the U.S. and in developing nations was due, not to discrimination, poor education, lack of economic opportunity, corrupt government, or other factors, but to the excessive fertility of the "less fit" lower classes. Soon, the U.S. was subsidizing domestic "family planning" agencies, such as Planned Parenthood, and making its foreign aid dependent on the adoption of population control measures.

BlackGenocide.org | The Negro Project

 

[minnie616]

So they dont want it until they realize what they have?..

There are very strong hormones that are released during labor that make a woman bond with a newborn.
Less than 5 percent of single moms give their child up for adoption.
So if you think making abortions illegal will create more infants for couples who want to adopt ...you are wrong.

 

[AGENT J]

1.)What right is this?
2.)To kill her unborn child?
3.) What of the childs rights?
4.) Is the mothers right to be free of her child more important than that childs right to live?

well first let me be clear what im talking about, im talking about if all or most abortions are banned by law and made murder

1.) her right to life and thats just her human rights if you believe in that, her legal rights are also violated
2.) no
3.) they matter also, they BOTH matter, but the fact is neither can be granted full rights all the time without violating the other, thats the whole point, thats the hypocrisy im pointing out. Thats what SOME people refuse to acknowledge, they ignore these facts
4.) not the rights im comparing but in some scenarios, before viability, yes in my opinion.

the fact is theres no such thing as equal rights on the abortion debate, due to where the ZEF resides, viability, how it comes to term and its presences alone being a risk its impossible. SO id like a solution that TRIES to give them BOTH rights

 

[Gawain]

Allow me to rephrase - You can force law abiding citizens to not have an abortion.



What was that about straw dog?

Abortion in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





The map shows that abortion on request was legal in 4 states, legal in case danger to woman's health, rape or incest, or likely damaged fetus in 13, Legal in case of danger to woman's health in 2 and Legal in case of rape in 1. It was Illegal in all the other 30 states.

No you can not

 

[Gawain]

There are very strong hormones that are released during labor that make a woman bond with a newborn.
Less than 5 percent of single moms give their child up for adoption.
So if you think making abortions illegal will create more infants for couples who want to adopt ...you are wrong.

It will for at least 5% and it will save many lives. Also that does not say what percentage of these single moms didnt want their child. The point is every one of these babys will have a mother.

 

[AGENT J]

Its against Libertarianism to force them not to have an abortion the same as it is to force them to have one as both are guilty of coercion against an individual. Its a human rights violation to deny them the ability to consider having a legal abortion. Amnesty international, the human rights watchdog supports abortion in cases of rape, health, etc. You however advocate a blanket ban, therefore a violation of human rights is described by you. From the World Health Organisation:

shhhhhh its ok if a person agrees with the force it doesnt count, no need to point out the hypocrisy in ones view like that.