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LGBT civil rights act

Should businesses be allowed to deny service to homosexuals or transgenders?


  • Total voters
    69

Masterhawk

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The LGBT community has gained much ground in the last few decades but the civil rights act currently only applies to race, color, religion, sex, and national origin. This means that any business can deny service to a homosexual or transgender.

However, some christian owned businesses have refused service such as the baker who wouldn't bake a cake for a gay wedding. This is because the Bible teaches that homosexuality is a sin and unnatural.
 
The LGBT community has gained much ground in the last few decades but the civil rights act currently only applies to race, color, religion, sex, and national origin. This means that any business can deny service to a homosexual or transgender.

However, some christian owned businesses have refused service such as the baker who wouldn't bake a cake for a gay wedding. This is because the Bible teaches that homosexuality is a sin and unnatural.

The focus on homosexuality is bizarre. There are so many other sins, yet those sins go completely ignored while Christians place the full weight of their wrath on gays.
 
Two U.S. Supreme Court decisions have undermined the reasoning of both lines of cases and, as a result, recent cases have held that LGBT people may be entitled to protection under Title VII in some circumstances. In Price Waterhouse v. Hopkins, 490 U.S. 228 (1989), the Supreme Court held that Title VII was not limited to discrimination on the basis of one’s biological status as a man or a woman but instead prohibits the “entire spectrum” of discrimination on the basis of sex, including discrimination on the basis of gender stereotypes. In Price Waterhouse, plaintiff Ann Hopkins was denied a partnership at an accounting firm because she was deemed to be insufficiently “feminine.” Id. at 234–35. To improve her chances for partnership, Hopkins was told she should “walk more femininely, talk more femininely, dress more femininely, wear make-up, have her hair styled, and wear jewelry.” Id. at 235. The employer argued that Title VII did not prohibit discrimination based on gender stereotypes. The Supreme Court disagreed. “As for the legal relevance of sex stereotyping, we are beyond the day when an employer could evaluate employees by assuming or insisting that they matched the stereotype associated with their group, for ‘in forbidding employers to discriminate against individuals because of their sex, Congress intended to strike at the entire spectrum of disparate treatment of men and women resulting from sex stereotypes.’” Id. at 251 (internal citations omitted). Nine years later, in Oncale v. Sundowner, 523 U.S. 75 (1998), the Supreme Court removed another barrier when it held that a plaintiff could state a Title VII claim where sexual harassment was perpetrated by a person of the same sex.

Based on these Supreme Court decisions, courts across the country have held that LGBT people may be entitled to protection under Title VII. For example, in Heller v. Columbia Edgewater Country Club, 195 F. Supp. 2d 1212 (D. Or. 2002), the district court denied summary judgment for an employer in a Title VII suit brought by a lesbian employee. The plaintiff presented evidence that throughout her employment, her female supervisor made disparaging and harassing comments based on gender stereotypes, including: “Oh, I thought you were a man”, “Do you wear the dick in the relationship?” and, “I thought you wore the pants.” In ruling in favor of the employee, the court relied upon a recent Ninth Circuit case— Nicholas v. Azteca Restaurant Enterprises, Inc., 256 F.3d 864 (9th Cir. 2001)—abrogating its earlier decision in DeSantis and holding that a male employee is entitled to redress under Title VII if he can prove that he was discriminated against for failing to comport with stereotypical notions of how men should appear and behave. Similarly, a concurring opinion in the en banc decision Rene v. MGM Grand Hotel, Inc., 305 F.3d 1061 (9th Cir. 2002), revived a Title VII claim brought by a gay male plaintiff who had presented evidence that his former coworkers taunted him by calling him feminine names and endearments, and ridiculed him for walking in a feminine manner.

With respect to transgender people, courts have similarly held that if a transgender person is targeted for failing to conform to stereotypes about how men and women are expected to appear and behave, they may be protected under Title VII. In Schwenk v. Hartford, 204 F.3d 1187 (9th Cir. 2000), the plaintiff was a transgender prisoner who sued under the Gender Motivated Violence Act after being assaulted by a guard. Relying on the old case law on this issue, including Ulane, the guard argued that sex discrimination laws do not protect transgender people. The Ninth Circuit rejected this argument, holding that the “initial judicial approach taken in cases such as Holloway [and Ulane] has been overruled by the logic and language of Price Waterhouse.” Id. at 1201. The court concluded that “[d]iscrimination because one fails to act in the way expected of a man or a woman is forbidden under Title VII,” and that a transgender person who is targeted on this basis is entitled to protection.

Forty years after the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, there is still no explicit federal protection for LGBT employees. In at least some circumstances, however, courts are increasingly finding that LGBT employees are entitled to protection under Title VII.

Protection for LGBT Employees Under Title VII of the 1964 Civil Rights Act | Section of Civil Rights and Social Justice
 
The focus on homosexuality is bizarre. There are so many other sins, yet those sins go completely ignored while Christians place the full weight of their wrath on gays.

Its the other way around, if someone goes into a bakery and wants a polygamy wedding cake, or a divorce cake and they get denied they dont make a national news story they just go to another bakery
 
The focus on homosexuality is bizarre. There are so many other sins, yet those sins go completely ignored while Christians place the full weight of their wrath on gays.

Because it's not really about religion.

It's about hate.
 
Its the other way around, if someone goes into a bakery and wants a polygamy wedding cake, or a divorce cake and they get denied they dont make a national news story they just go to another bakery

Because that totally happens. :roll:
 
Its the other way around, if someone goes into a bakery and wants a polygamy wedding cake, or a divorce cake and they get denied they dont make a national news story they just go to another bakery

Everyone else just puts up with it but those damn gays cause problems? Unlike others, gays are uppity?

:lamo
 
The LGBT community has gained much ground in the last few decades but the civil rights act currently only applies to race, color, religion, sex, and national origin. This means that any business can deny service to a homosexual or transgender.

However, some christian owned businesses have refused service such as the baker who wouldn't bake a cake for a gay wedding. This is because the Bible teaches that homosexuality is a sin and unnatural.

Absolutely.

Should a bakery that is owned by an African American be forced to make a cake for a member of the KKK?

Christians shouldn't have to make a cake a gay couple. That's a deeply troubling request that forces the Christian baker to go against their faith and beliefs.
 
Because it's not really about religion.

It's about hate.

Christian businesses that have refused services for following their faith have lost their business due to lawsuits.

Do you really think Christians are that hateful they would loose their business over 1 cake?

It is about following ones faith.
 
We don't allow people to discriminate against race or gender because of their religion. I see no reason we should allow them to discriminate against sexual orientation because of it.
 
Because it's not really about religion.

It's about hate.

So you can read their thoughts? Feel their emotions? Come now YS. That's a really crappy generalization. Do you seriously believe that the only reason for a Christian baker to deny baking a cake is because of hate? You don't think that its a real possibility that they truly feel that it is morally wrong and goes against their religious beliefs?

To everyone in general:

You know, I fought for SSM for many years before it finally became legal. One of the many excuses that was used against letting gays get married is that it would force Christians to marry them. That it would force Christians to accept SSM in their every day lives. I guess I was naive when I said that would never happen. That such assertions were nothing more than slippery slope logic and scare tactics.

Now here we are. Christian ministers being forced to marry same sex couple just because they also happen to perform weddings that are not strictly Christian and Christian bakers are being forced to bake cakes for SSM or be driven from their business.

I apologize to everyone that made those statements above. I was wrong on that part. Though I still believe fully that marriage between two consenting adults is a Right no matter the gender of the people involved.

As for the Poll, I voted "yes". I am fully against AA laws as I see them as violations of a persons right to association.
 
The cake issue really troubles me.

I don't believe it is right for the government to force someone to provide service for others. So technically, I am on the baker's side of this argument.

However, I believe people that are misrepresenting the Christian faith in order to not serve someone is pretty disgusting. The teachings of Christ were centered around tolerance and love. While homosexuality is a sin in the Christian faith, ultimately all have sinned so using their lifestyle in order to deny service is rather hypocritical imo.
 
The LGBT community has gained much ground in the last few decades but the civil rights act currently only applies to race, color, religion, sex, and national origin. This means that any business can deny service to a homosexual or transgender.

However, some christian owned businesses have refused service such as the baker who wouldn't bake a cake for a gay wedding. This is because the Bible teaches that homosexuality is a sin and unnatural.

That is a false question. Only, if one changes the Constitution is Congress allowed to pass a law that restricts religious belief.

Also, it seems rather a creepy way to go about civil rights, which should apply to every citizen and not to various groups with the fancy they need extra protection. They should be demanding rule of law and not that all men be equal and transgenders and women too.
 
The cake issue really troubles me.

I don't believe it is right for the government to force someone to provide service for others. So technically, I am on the baker's side of this argument.

However, I believe people that are misrepresenting the Christian faith in order to not serve someone is pretty disgusting. The teachings of Christ were centered around tolerance and love. While homosexuality is a sin in the Christian faith, ultimately all have sinned so using their lifestyle in order to deny service is rather hypocritical imo.

and do you think Christ would celebrate an unrepentant sinner or offer them help to change their ways?
 
The cake issue really troubles me.

I don't believe it is right for the government to force someone to provide service for others. So technically, I am on the baker's side of this argument.

However, I believe people that are misrepresenting the Christian faith in order to not serve someone is pretty disgusting. The teachings of Christ were centered around tolerance and love. While homosexuality is a sin in the Christian faith, ultimately all have sinned so using their lifestyle in order to deny service is rather hypocritical imo.

As with any group, the few make all look bad. There are many Christians that are about tolerance and love.
 
As with any group, the few make all look bad. There are many Christians that are about tolerance and love.

And so many zealots that will crush a conscientious and loving baker.

;)
 
The cake issue really troubles me.

I don't believe it is right for the government to force someone to provide service for others. So technically, I am on the baker's side of this argument.

However, I believe people that are misrepresenting the Christian faith in order to not serve someone is pretty disgusting. The teachings of Christ were centered around tolerance and love. While homosexuality is a sin in the Christian faith, ultimately all have sinned so using their lifestyle in order to deny service is rather hypocritical imo.

I am sure that this is true in some cases. But look in his eyes and tell me which ones are doing so in bad faith. The Constitution is about: Protecting the minority from Congress, the Executive and the Judiciary.
 
Yes BUT so long as doing so does not put that person's life in any jeopardy (like a private medical clinic denying service for the above stupid reason).

I have long stated that private businesses should be able to refuse to service ANYONE they wish (subject to the above restriction) for any reason; no matter how lame - sexual preference, right handed, hair parted on the left side, looks like an ex, it's Tuesday and they have short hair...whatever.

I will not waste much time debating this is as it seems absolutely nonsensical to me to force a private business (that is a non-essential one - like a flower store) to serve people they do not want to.
 
Because it's not really about religion.

It's about hate.
Definitely right on the first sentence. We lose something when we try to claim religious basis for something especially when there are so many contrary views from that same religion.

Don't like the second sentence since it implies some normally unknowable element and is legal. You don't know why someone believes something but can only see their actions or hear their statements. There may or may not be hate involved. Besides, and more importantly IMHO, is we have the right to hate. I suspect that many people hate racists, bigots, sexists, etc. and believe that they have a right to do so. You perhaps hate people who treat LGBT community differently than you would like them treated. Hopefully you recognize that as hate, if it is.
 
and do you think Christ would celebrate an unrepentant sinner or offer them help to change their ways?

Considering he let a prostitute wash his feet, I don't believe it would be a stretch to say that if asked he would bake a cake for a gay couple. I'm not saying he would condone their lifestyle but given his actions and the message he taught, I don't see how anyone would think he would refuse them.
 
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Absolutely.

Should a bakery that is owned by an African American be forced to make a cake for a member of the KKK?

Christians shouldn't have to make a cake a gay couple. That's a deeply troubling request that forces the Christian baker to go against their faith and beliefs.

So you are comparing gay people to the KKK now? Really Bucky? Even for you that's low.
 
So you are comparing gay people to the KKK now? Really Bucky? Even for you that's low.

He isn't comparing gay people to the KKK, he is using a more extreme example to show why this could be an issue.

Another example would be: Should someone that is Pro-Life be forced to make a cake for a Planned Parenthood event?
 
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He isn't comparing gay people to the KKK, he is using a more extreme example to show why this could be an issue.

Really? Please point out the years of persecution of Christian people by homosexuals. Please point out dozens of murders, bombings, arsons, beatings, etc of Christian people by homosexuals. Please point out where Christians were denied the right to vote or drink from the same ****ing water fountains as homosexuals.

You can't? That's because Bucky's statement is ****ing absurd. Any Christian who thinks that way is, to be frank, a moron.
 
Now here we are. Christian ministers being forced to marry same sex couple just because they also happen to perform weddings that are not strictly Christian....

And that is because they are for-profit companies that had no problem performing any other ceremonies to the public (at cost of course), so they fell under public accommodation laws in that state.

.... and Christian bakers are being forced to bake cakes for SSM or be driven from their business.

So you want to make boycotts illegal? They broke public accommodation laws in states. I'm sure you're just as upset over businesses being driven out they didn't accommodate interracial couples as well correct?

The only problem I have with the bakery thing is that it should be situational IMO. If the bakery is selling a cake (I'm talking the cake, not the writing or toppings), then that cake should be able to be purchased by a gay couple for a wedding period. It's the same product they provide to others. I have a problem when the couple demands things like congratulations steve and steve or to make them put two men on top of the cake etc. But the overall simple decoration, product itself should not be able to be refused under public accommodation laws.
 
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