Let's Rewrite the Bill of Rights!

[FluffyNinja]

The Bill of Lefts

With the recent (past 50 years) infiltration of modern American Liberalism into our Public Schools, Universities, judicial system and the news media, I have been wondering; to what degree has our cherished Bill of Rights suffered under this Left-wing onslaught? Has modern Liberalism done more harm or good in the application of our rights as enumerated in the first ten amendments to the US Constitution? As just an innocent observer (not an activist), I believe our Bill of Rights is rapidly degrading into a “Bill of Lefts.” Perhaps we should just go ahead and replace the first ten amendments with some new ones. Here are some possible replacements:

1. Freedom of Speech. (As long as it is seditious in nature and as long as you are not a Conservative Christian attempting to express your views.)

2. Freedom of Religion. (Or Freedom FROM religion in the Liberal sense)

3. Freedom to Control the Press. (Enough said)

4. Freedom of Assembly. (Unless you’re involved in a patriotic rally or are a group of “Jesus Freaks” supporting Right to Life)

5. Freedom of Petition. (Unless you’re attempting to recall a Liberal, Left-Wing, Democratic Party official - remember Gov. Gray Davis?)

6. The Right to take away guns from law-abiding citizens.

7. The Right to Life. (However’ if you’re an unborn child, this right may be taken away for ANY reason or for no reason at all. This right may not be taken away from convicted murderers or crack cocaine suppliers for ANY reason)

8. The Right to special, preferential treatment based on race, ethnic origin, gender or sexual orientation.
9. The Right to burn a flag. (As long as it is the American Flag)

10. The Right to have the ACLU defend you. (Unless you are a non-minority, Judeo-Christian capitalist -- Thank goodness they got the Ten Commandments removed from that courthouse in Alabama (Judge Roy Moore). When I see them being publicly displayed, I can feel the very fabric of freedom and democracy being torn to shreds!)

11. The Right to Vote. (Then the right to count the votes again, then re-count the votes, then re-count them again until you get the results you want)

12. The Right to have a High-paying job. (Even if your skills and qualifications are sub-par)

13. The Right Not to Work. (But to get paid anyway - a.k.a. welfare)

14. The Right to sue others in court. (Even if it was really your fault or your own stupidity that caused you damages)

15. The Right, Duty, and Obligation to feed the rest of the World and to defend their Civil Liberties. (But not the right to police those other nations, nor the right to protect our own interests in those countries)

I posted something similar to this on another forum a couple of years ago and I just wanted to see what the reactions would be here. I realize that I’m “setting myself up” for a barrage - but I suppose that’s the nature of the forum. I’ll take my “lumps.”

FluffyNinja

 

[FluffyNinja]

Oops, I forgot one, must be getting late:

9. Right to burn a Flag. (as long as it is the American Flag)

 

[Monk-Eye]

Redirection

"Redirection"

Libertarianism emphasizes the deontology of policy methods which implement first generation rights, negative rights, negative obligations of the government, the original meaning of republicanism, in order to secure individual liberty.

The term that should be used instead of "Liberalism" (incorrectly) is utilitarianism, which is synonymous with an entitlement society and sappy humanism.

Your list is rather sporadic.


P.S. Abortion is the free use of private property until birth when citizenship is granted, which begins the opportunity for equal protection and due process.

 

[Hatuey]

1. Freedom of Speech. (As long as it is seditious in nature and as long as you are not a Conservative Christian attempting to express your views.)

Where has the government denied the right of Conservative Christians attempting to express their views? You do know that over 95% of our government is Christian right? nearly half of it being made up of conservatives? What about the current administration? This conservative minority is sooooo underrepresented and oppressed. What about SCOTUS? 4/9 conservative judges. Your silly and tired rhetoric of the white christian conservative minority that is over represented in our government is see through.

2. Freedom of Religion. (Or Freedom FROM religion in the Liberal sense)

Are you not allowed to go to church?

3. Freedom to Control the Press. (Enough said)

Really? Conservatives are welcome to create more news agencies. Or do you not understand how capitalism works? You're not happy about the service provided by some. Start a service. Left leaning News Agencies don't controll the press anymore then FOX does. You're welcome to create more agencies if you're unhappy. Free country, capitalism etc etc.

4. Freedom of Assembly. (Unless you’re involved in a patriotic rally or are a group of “Jesus Freaks” supporting Right to Life)

Really? Have anti-abortion and patriotic rallies been banned?

5. Freedom of Petition. (Unless you’re attempting to recall a Liberal, Left-Wing, Democratic Party official - remember Gov. Gray Davis?)

Non-sequitur. Thanks for playing.

6. The Right to take away guns from law-abiding citizens.

OoooO! Fear mongering. Did Clinton take away the right to own guns? What about 40 years of Democratic congress? No? K. Thanks.

7. The Right to Life. (However’ if you’re an unborn child, this right may be taken away for ANY reason or for no reason at all. This right may not be taken away from convicted murderers or crack cocaine suppliers for ANY reason)

What a ridiculous argument. Here is another one. It's a contradiction to say you support the right to life of a 6 celled organism but not that of a walking human being. Yay for ridiculous non-sequiturs.

8. The Right to special, preferential treatment based on race, ethnic origin, gender or sexual orientation.

More non-sequitur rights. You know you've just proven my theory that after 2 years of usage crack addicts tend to confuse rocks with altoids? Alright.

9. The Right to burn a flag. (As long as it is the American Flag)

You do know wearing a t-shirt with a flag on it is breaking flag code right?

10. The Right to have the ACLU defend you. (Unless you are a non-minority, Judeo-Christian capitalist -- Thank goodness they got the Ten Commandments removed from that courthouse in Alabama (Judge Roy Moore). When I see them being publicly displayed, I can feel the very fabric of freedom and democracy being torn to shreds!)

You mean like the NRA?

11. The Right to Vote. (Then the right to count the votes again, then re-count the votes, then re-count them again until you get the results you want)

You mean the 2 recalls in American history? One led by a Democrat the other by a Republican?

12. The Right to have a High-paying job. (Even if your skills and qualifications are sub-par)

That's one of the arguments dumb conservatives use to justify white conservative christian males with no high school education getting $12 for picking apples.

13. The Right Not to Work. (But to get paid anyway - a.k.a. welfare)

I've yet to see a single Conservative U.S. president try to bring welfare down. Reagan? No? Bush 1? Bush 2? No? KK.

14. The Right to sue others in court. (Even if it was really your fault or your own stupidity that caused you damages)

Can you name a single Conservative president who's tried to end litigation clogging? No? K.

15. The Right, Duty, and Obligation to feed the rest of the World and to defend their Civil Liberties. (But not the right to police those other nations, nor the right to protect our own interests in those countries)

"We are trying to export democracy" - Bush.

I posted something similar to this on another forum a couple of years ago and I just wanted to see what the reactions would be here. I realize that I’m “setting myself up” for a barrage - but I suppose that’s the nature of the forum. I’ll take my “lumps.”

FluffyNinja

The reaction of DP Members with common sense : You're a partisan hack who thinks that all the problems of the world are related to liberalism. You're part of the same group that believes that it's underepresented in our government and oppresed and yet ignores the fact that our government for the most part is made up of old white men. You blame minorities for your short comings and everything else on liberals.

My conclusion : You are politically dillusional.

Treatment : Put the Ann Coulter books down for a period of 72 hours and reduce your daily intake of FOX by 2 hours a day.

 

[Ikari]

Yeah, stupid partisan crap! You can just as easily make on for the Republicans too cause in the end the Republicans and Democrats are the same. They're all a bunch of big government, big budget socialists. And don't get me started on gun rights, the Republicans are just as guilty for assaulting that right as the Democrats are.

 

[FluffyNinja]

Where has the government denied the right of Conservative Christians attempting to express their views? You do know that over 95% of our government is Christian right? nearly half of it being made up of conservatives? What about the current administration? This conservative minority is sooooo underrepresented and oppressed. What about SCOTUS? 4/9 conservative judges. Your silly and tired rhetoric of the white christian conservative minority that is over represented in our government is see through.

Christian groups have been routinely denied the right to pray openly in Public Schools - I could provide you an extensive list of stories and court cases if you'd like.

Are you not allowed to go to church?

Going to Church is not the point - one should be allowed to practice their religion openly and freely at ANY time in ANY place. A TRULY religious person, would know that. That town in Michigan certainly didn't have a problem Blaring Muslim prayers over a loudspeaker each day. Try doing that with The Lord's Prayer in downtown SanFrancisco and see if you'll be able to "feel the love!"

Really? Conservatives are welcome to create more news agencies. Or do you not understand how capitalism works? You're not happy about the service provided by some. Start a service. Left leaning News Agencies don't controll the press anymore then FOX does. You're welcome to create more agencies if you're unhappy. Free country, capitalism etc etc.

That's not the point either. The point is there is a double-standard for Conservative media. I hope we'd BOTH agree that double-standards are NEVER good (remember racial and gender discrimination, etc.)

Really? Have anti-abortion and patriotic rallies been banned?

Actually, in several instances, yes. Again, if you're interested in playing this game, I will provide links to stories - but I really doubt you'd even take the time to read them.

Non-sequitur. Thanks for playing.

How is this a non-sequitur? It is a factual story. Petitoners were attacked by the Liberal media (Like CNN - calling this a "radical" move) during the entire recall process.

OoooO! Fear mongering. Did Clinton take away the right to own guns? What about 40 years of Democratic congress? No? K. Thanks.

The President does not have the Power to intiate legislation. Read the US Constitution. But, had Clinton had a Super-majority in both Houses of Congress and had he been able to appoint a couple of Activist Justices.......who knows?

What a ridiculous argument. Here is another one. It's a contradiction to say you support the right to life of a 6 celled organism but not that of a walking human being. Yay for ridiculous non-sequiturs.

Uh....I think that a FETUS ( why do ProChoice advocates shy away from that term?) in the third month of pregnancy has quite a few more than 6 cells - Biology 101 - check it out.

More non-sequitur rights. You know you've just proven my theory that after 2 years of usage crack addicts tend to confuse rocks with altoids? Alright.

I suppose Affirmative Action is simply a figment of the Public's imagination - yes, apparently crack does cause dillusional behavior.

You do know wearing a t-shirt with a flag on it is breaking flag code right?

We're not discussing flag code, but RIGHTS. Check out the Supreme Court case Joey Johnson Vs. Texas.

You mean like the NRA?

Uhhhhhh............no.

You mean the 2 recalls in American history? One led by a Democrat the other by a Republican?

Yes, those, and all those on the state and local levels which are predominately intiated by Demoncats.

That's one of the arguments dumb conservatives use to justify white conservative christian males with no high school education getting $12 for picking apples.

Aren't the vast majority of produce-pickers in the U.S. now Hispanic thanks to NAFTA (signed into law by Clinton)?

I've yet to see a single Conservative U.S. president try to bring welfare down. Reagan? No? Bush 1? Bush 2? No? KK.

Not, welfare specifically, but wasteful spending on social programs, yes. Also under Bush 1, Social security benefits were finally amended so that cocaine addicts would not be eligible for a monthy disability check - darn!

Can you name a single Conservative president who's tried to end litigation clogging? No? K.

No, but I can name several Conservative Governors, Senators and Congressmen who have tried. Why do all of your counter arguments seem to revolve around the Presidency?

"We are trying to export democracy" - Bush.

Too bad we're not "exporting" greater quantities of democracy to even more nations - we might have more loyal allies and cheaper gas.

The reaction of DP Members with common sense : You're a partisan hack who thinks that all the problems of the world are related to liberalism. You're part of the same group that believes that it's underepresented in our government and oppresed and yet ignores the fact that our government for the most part is made up of old white men. You blame minorities for your short comings and everything else on liberals.

My conclusion : You are politically dillusional.

Treatment : Put the Ann Coulter books down for a period of 72 hours and reduce your daily intake of FOX by 2 hours a day.

Typical of those on the Left to resort to name-calling and cheap one-liners.

 

[Jray]

Too bad we're not "exporting" greater quantities of democracy to even more nations - we might have more loyal allies and cheaper gas.

You can't export democracy.

 

[FluffyNinja]

You can't export democracy.

Uhhhhh......it's a figure of speech. And why can't ideas/ideals be exported? By the way, did you notice my quotes around the word "export?" Know what that means? I guess not. Shame. No wonder our kids' Language scores are on the decline.

 

[Hatuey]

Christian groups have been routinely denied the right to pray openly in Public Schools - I could provide you an extensive list of stories and court cases if you'd like.

:rofl - you mean public schools which are funded by tax payers who have the right to determine whether or not they want public displays of religion on public property such as school? You don't have a right to pray in a public School. If you do please show me where it's written down that you have such a right.

Going to Church is not the point - one should be allowed to practice their religion openly and freely at ANY time in ANY place.

Wrong. You have the right to be religious in places where you're allowed to be religious. Displays of religion on public and private property are at the discretion of the people who run said properties. If a public school doesn't want to have religious stupidity on it's ground then they are not infringing on anybody's right to religion. If you do please show me where it's written down that they have to allow people to pray on their grounds.

A TRULY religious person, would know that. That town in Michigan certainly didn't have a problem Blaring Muslim prayers over a loudspeaker each day.

You mean Muslim prayers which were sounded off from PRIVATE property that got the license for such religious demonstration? Just like a church needs to have permission to blast bells every hour on the hour?

Try doing that with The Lord's Prayer in downtown SanFrancisco and see if you'll be able to "feel the love!"

What stupidity. Try doing that with a church. Oh wait. They already do. Bells on the hour.

That's not the point either. The point is there is a double-standard for Conservative media. I hope we'd BOTH agree that double-standards are NEVER good (remember racial and gender discrimination, etc.)

As I said. If you percieve too much liberal bias then you are welcome to start your own unbiased or right wing news outlet. You aren't the oppressed minority you make yourselves out to be. It's a free country. If you don't like something. Try to change it. Stop complaining.

Actually, in several instances, yes. Again, if you're interested in playing this game, I will provide links to stories - but I really doubt you'd even take the time to read them.

:rofl - Go ahead. I'd love to see where these protests have been banned.

How is this a non-sequitur? It is a factual story. Petitoners were attacked by the Liberal media (Like CNN - calling this a "radical" move) during the entire recall process.

It's a non-sequitur.

The President does not have the Power to intiate legislation. Read the US Constitution. But, had Clinton had a Super-majority in both Houses of Congress and had he been able to appoint a couple of Activist Justices.......who knows?

Ah yes. The what if argument. Clinton didn't have a super majority. You'd need an amendment banning guns. The South and Midwest alone would be enough to block such an amendment.

Uh....I think that a FETUS ( why do ProChoice advocates shy away from that term?) in the third month of pregnancy has quite a few more than 6 cells - Biology 101 - check it out.

:roll: - Your argument would carry weight if all abortions took place at 3 months but they do not. The large majority take place long before it reaches 3 month. Thanks for displaying your inability to read though.

I suppose Affirmative Action is simply a figment of the Public's imagination - yes, apparently crack does cause dillusional behavior.

And the percentage of people who have actually benefited from affirmative action is not even 10% of the number of people who have benefited from jobs being sent overseas.

We're not discussing flag code, but RIGHTS. Check out the Supreme Court case Joey Johnson Vs. Texas.

Psssst. Burning a flag IS against flag code. But so is putting it on a t-shirt. So I guess an eye for an eye and we both lose our sight.

Uhhhhhh............no.

The NRA was defended by the ACLU. :2wave:

Yes, those, and all those on the state and local levels which are predominately intiated by Demoncats.

There have only been 2 succesful recalls at state level in the history of the U.S.

Recall election - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the eighteen U.S. states that today allow the recall of state officials, only two Governors have ever been successfully recalled. In 1921, North Dakota's Lynn J. Frazier was recalled over a dispute about state-owned industries, and in 2003, California Governor Gray Davis was recalled over mismanagement of the state budget.

In Alaska, Georgia, Kansas, Minnesota, Montana, Rhode Island, and Washington, specific grounds are required for a recall. Some form of malfeasance or misconduct while in office must be identified by the petitioner. The target may choose to dispute the validity of the grounds in court, and a court would then judge whether the allegations in the petition rise up to the level where a recall is necessary. In the other eleven states, no grounds are required and recalls may be circulated for any reason. However, the target is permitted to submit responses to the reasons for recall.

The minimum number of signatures and time limit to qualify a recall varies between states. In addition, the means of how recalls are handled once they qualify differ. In some states, a recall triggers a simultaneous special election, where the vote on the recall, as well as the replacement, should the recall succeed are on the same ballot. The 2003 California recall election is a good example of this, with over 100 candidates on the replacement portion of the ballot. In other states, a separate special election is held after the target is recalled, or a replacement is appointed by the Governor of the state or some other body.

Of those attempted :

One was in Cleveland and it was an attempt to recall Dennis Kucinich another was ND about 80 years ago and then we have one in Spokane where Jimmy E. West was stripped of his duties as mayor by the people.

Aren't the vast majority of produce-pickers in the U.S. now Hispanic thanks to NAFTA (signed into law by Clinton)?

All of whom have been hired because dumb conservative christians think they should be paid $12 for having no highschool education.

Not, welfare specifically, but wasteful spending on social programs, yes. Also under Bush 1, Social security benefits were finally amended so that cocaine addicts would not be eligible for a monthy disability check - darn!

You mean he simply removed a minute percentage of the people who are on welfare! WOW! That still leaves the other 99% who aren't on drugs!

No, but I can name several Conservative Governors, Senators and Congressmen who have tried. Why do all of your counter arguments seem to revolve around the Presidency?

Because I'd like to see what the highest office either side can get is doing. Obviously nothing. I can still sue people in all 50 states.

Too bad we're not "exporting" greater quantities of democracy to even more nations - we might have more loyal allies and cheaper gas.

Yeah we all know how cheap gas got after Iraq and how many more allies we made. Where is the Coalition of the willing btw?

Typical of those on the Left to resort to name-calling and cheap one-liners.

Lunatics on the right make one liners easy.

 

[Jray]

Uhhhhh......it's a figure of speech. And why can't ideas/ideals be exported? By the way, did you notice my quotes around the word "export?" Know what that means? I guess not. Shame. No wonder our kids' Language scores are on the decline.

I know what you meant by it.The thing is one country can't go into another and set-up a democracy, that's why we've had so much trouble in Iraq. Democracy has to be established by a grassroots movement rather than being installed.

 

[FluffyNinja]

- you mean public schools which are funded by tax payers who have the right to determine whether or not they want public displays of religion on public property such as school? You don't have a right to pray in a public School. If you do please show me where it's written down that you have such a right.

Last time I checked, the 10th Amendment to the US Constitution gives each STATE the power to create and manage its own Public Schools. In most states, especially in poor states like mine, the majority of public school funding actually comes from the STATE level. Go educate yourself. Over 90% of the local taxes used to fund Public Schools is actually based on a millage rate - property taxes. So, I guess you're saying that renters don't have the same rights - shame on you - some people can't afford homes - are you pickin' on the poor now? Not very Liberal of you.:mrgreen:

Wrong. You have the right to be religious in places where you're allowed to be religious. Displays of religion on public and private property are at the discretion of the people who run said properties. If a public school doesn't want to have religious stupidity on it's ground then they are not infringing on anybody's right to religion. If you do please show me where it's written down that they have to allow people to pray on their grounds.

Show me the LAW that says I DON'T have the RIGHT to practice my religion, INDIVIDUALLY ANYWHERE I WANT!

You mean Muslim prayers which were sounded off from PRIVATE property that got the license for such religious demonstration? Just like a church needs to have permission to blast bells every hour on the hour?

Thanks, you've helped prove my point. The MUSLIMS got a license, FROM their municipal government - WHO IGNORED THE PROTESTS OF ALL THE NON-MUSLIM CITIZENS IN THE TOWN WHO FELT IT WAS DISTURBING THE PEACE AND FORCING SOMEONE ELSES RELIGIOUS BELIEFS ON THEM.

What stupidity. Try doing that with a church. Oh wait. They already do. Bells on the hour.

How mature: "I disagree, therefore, you're stupid." Very deep Hatuey, quite philosophical.

As I said. If you percieve too much liberal bias then you are welcome to start your own unbiased or right wing news outlet. You aren't the oppressed minority you make yourselves out to be. It's a free country. If you don't like something. Try to change it. Stop complaining.

That's exactly what Conservatives tried to tell the Left-Wing, Hippy, anti-socials of the 1960's - their response was to burn a few bras, go live in the woods, never bathe and stay stoned on crank and weed.:lol:

:rofl - Go ahead. I'd love to see where these protests have been banned.

1.Here’s one about a ban on Patriotic clothing in a Public Middle School
cbs4denver.com - Middle School Lifts Patriotic Clothing Ban


2. Here’s one on the American Flag being banned on college campuses.
American Flag Banned on Campuses Across the Nation


3. Another article about patriotic symbols being banned in Public Schools in Arizona, Colorado and California.
USATODAY.com - Schools ban flags as immigration debate gets tense

4. Here’s one where news anchors at a local TV station were forbidden by the station owner and producer to wear patriotic lapel pins.
http://www.udel.edu/communication/COMM418/begleite/patrioticsymbols/symbols.pdf

5. TWO PEACEFUL PRO-LIFE PROTESTERS ARRESTED OUTSIDE VANCOUVER ABORTUARY
TWO PEACEFUL PRO-LIFE PROTESTERS ARRESTED OUTSIDE VANCOUVER ABORTUARY

6. Mother of seven arrested for pro-life protest.
CCRL | Mother of seven arrested for pro-life protest

These are a few stories - I could copy/paste many more but I don't want to be like my pal Nifty.

It's a non-sequitur.

Okay, obviously this "dead horse' has been beaten quite enough.

Ah yes. The what if argument. Clinton didn't have a super majority. You'd need an amendment banning guns. The South and Midwest alone would be enough to block such an amendment.

It's not like it hasn't been proposed. Again, I can provide links, if you really want them.

- Your argument would carry weight if all abortions took place at 3 months but they do not. The large majority take place long before it reaches 3 month. Thanks for displaying your inability to read though.

You really should go back and study a high school Biology textbook. By the THIRD WEEK of pregnancy, an embryo already consists of over 500 cells. I've got two beautiful children and went through birthing classes twice.

And the percentage of people who have actually benefited from affirmative action is not even 10% of the number of people who have benefited from jobs being sent overseas.

Well, maybe they should go get themselves an "overseas" job. My brother went from making $35,000/yr as a city fireman to $180,000/yr (tax exempt) by hiring on with Fire-fighting Contractor in Saudi Arabia. The opportuniites are there, but you must stop complaining long enough to fill out an application.

Psssst. Burning a flag IS against flag code. But so is putting it on a t-shirt. So I guess an eye for an eye and we both lose our sight.

PSSSSST. I was in the US Army for 10 long years, I think I know Flag etiquette and actually, in some cases, a flag that touches the ground is supposed to be burned.

The NRA was defended by the ACLU.

Okay, once, I'll give you that one. But they've also been sued by the ACLU, as have Border Patrol Agents for flashing weapons as they attempted to prevent illegal aliens from crossing the border. Go figure.

There have only been 2 succesful recalls at state level in the history of the U.S.

I said LOCAL governments as well. We've had three recall attempts in my county in the past 20 years.

All of whom have been hired because dumb conservative christians think they should be paid $12 for having no highschool education.

Okay, that's just too far out there for me to respond. Your original quote was:

That's one of the arguments dumb conservatives use to justify white conservative christian males with no high school education getting $12 for picking apples.

Whose picking apples? Make up your mind so I know how to respond.

You mean he simply removed a minute percentage of the people who are on welfare! WOW! That still leaves the other 99% who aren't on drugs!

Where'd you get your statistics? You sure 1% is accurate?

Because I'd like to see what the highest office either side can get is doing. Obviously nothing. I can still sue people in all 50 states.

Evidently, you need to go back and study some high school civics as well. The "highest office" does not equate to the "most powerful" entity in government. Congress, acting in unison, has always held more power than the President. Bush didn't just send those troops to Iraq all by his lonesome - he could not have done it without Congressional Approval - which he received overwhelmingly - from Dems and Reps alike.

Yeah we all know how cheap gas got after Iraq and how many more allies we made. Where is the Coalition of the willing btw?

We're not in Iraq to "spread Democracy." This is a lie propagated through the media from the Whitehouse. Iraq is a "Police Action," and a justified one at that. By the way, compare OUR gas prices to those in Japan? China? France? Russia?

Lunatics on the right make one liners easy.

Name-calling again? And I thought you Liberals were all about tolerance? Silly me!:roll:

 

[FluffyNinja]

I know what you meant by it.The thing is one country can't go into another and set-up a democracy, that's why we've had so much trouble in Iraq. Democracy has to be established by a grassroots movement rather than being installed.

We're not really trying to set up Democracy in Iraq. I wish GWB would've had the guts just to come out and tell the people what Iraq REALLY is - A Police Action - and one that I feel was justified. We have too many economic interests at stake in that part of the world to stand by while fanatical little warlords try to ruin it for everyone. Call it what it is. I, personally, don't really care if the Iraqi people ever have a Democracy, as long as we can make international trade/travel safe again in that sector of the world.

 

[Jray]

We're not really trying to set up Democracy in Iraq. I wish GWB would've had the guts just to come out and tell the people what Iraq REALLY is - A Police Action - and one that I feel was justified. We have too many economic interests at stake in that part of the world to stand by while fanatical little warlords try to ruin it for everyone. Call it what it is. I, personally, don't really care if the Iraqi people ever have a Democracy, as long as we can make international trade/travel safe again in that sector of the world.

Too bad we're not "exporting" greater quantities of democracy to even more nations

Well this is contradictory.So we should export democracy but you don't care if democracy succeeds in Iraq? But do yo realize that the US has backed many "fanatical little warlords" when if protected it's interests? The US had no problem with Saddam when it funded his war with Iran.

Your post also had nothing to do with whether or not democracy can be exported.

 

[Hatuey]

Last time I checked, the 10th Amendment to the US Constitution gives each STATE the power to create and manage its own Public Schools. In most states, especially in poor states like mine, the majority of public school funding actually comes from the STATE level.

Which has what to do with this silly belief you have that praying in schools and being religious wherever you want to be is a right? I'm still waiting for this imaginary right.

Go educate yourself. Over 90% of the local taxes used to fund Public Schools is actually based on a millage rate - property taxes. So, I guess you're saying that renters don't have the same rights - shame on you - some people can't afford homes - are you pickin' on the poor now? Not very Liberal of you.:mrgreen:

Another non-sequitur. What does who fund public school have to do with this imaginary belief you have that praying in schools is a right?

Show me the LAW that says I DON'T have the RIGHT to practice my religion, INDIVIDUALLY ANYWHERE I WANT!

Once again what you are allowed to do on public property like say schools are determined by the schools. What you are allowed to do on public property is determined by the people who own said property.

Thanks, you've helped prove my point. The MUSLIMS got a license, FROM their municipal government

-

You're proving your own stupidity. Muslims mosques must get a license just like Christian churches who ring bells.

WHO IGNORED THE PROTESTS OF ALL THE NON-MUSLIM CITIZENS IN THE TOWN WHO FELT IT WAS DISTURBING THE PEACE

Because it was no different then churches ringing bells.

AND FORCING SOMEONE ELSES RELIGIOUS BELIEFS ON THEM.

Another non-sequitur. People practicing their religion legally on private property is not forcing religion on you.

How mature: "I disagree, therefore, you're stupid." Very deep Hatuey, quite philosophical.

It's funny how you ignored the fact that Muslim prayer calls are no different then church bells. Your continued attempt to ignore this is what makes your entire argument stupid.

That's exactly what Conservatives tried to tell the Left-Wing, Hippy, anti-socials of the 1960's - their response was to burn a few bras, go live in the woods, never bathe and stay stoned on crank and weed.:lol:

Does this mean you'll stop complaining about your feigned underrepresentation? K.

1.Here’s one about a ban on Patriotic clothing in a Public Middle School
cbs4denver.com - Middle School Lifts Patriotic Clothing Ban

What don't you understand about schools setting the rules on their grounds?

2. Here’s one on the American Flag being banned on college campuses.
American Flag Banned on Campuses Across the Nation

Seriously I'll repeat for the 1,000,000th time. Schools. Set. The. Rules. On. Their. Grounds.

3. Another article about patriotic symbols being banned in Public Schools in Arizona, Colorado and California.
USATODAY.com - Schools ban flags as immigration debate gets tense

4. Here’s one where news anchors at a local TV station were forbidden by the station owner and producer to wear patriotic lapel pins.
http://www.udel.edu/communication/COMM418/begleite/patrioticsymbols/symbols.pdf

5. TWO PEACEFUL PRO-LIFE PROTESTERS ARRESTED OUTSIDE VANCOUVER ABORTUARY
TWO PEACEFUL PRO-LIFE PROTESTERS ARRESTED OUTSIDE VANCOUVER ABORTUARY

6. Mother of seven arrested for pro-life protest.
CCRL | Mother of seven arrested for pro-life protest

These are a few stories - I could copy/paste many more but I don't want to be like my pal Nifty.

I'm still waiting to see where protests have been banned. This is nothing more then you feigning outrage that schools(unlike your imaginary right) do have the right to determine what students do on their grounds.

Okay, obviously this "dead horse' has been beaten quite enough.

Do you not understand why it's a non sequitur yet?

It's not like it hasn't been proposed. Again, I can provide links, if you really want them.

You're back pedalling. You made an argument and unable to substanciate it you created a what if scenario.

You really should go back and study a high school Biology textbook. By the THIRD WEEK of pregnancy, an embryo already consists of over 500 cells. I've got two beautiful children and went through birthing classes twice.

OMG! 500 cells! I'm still waiting to see what this has to do with your original non-sequitur argument.

Well, maybe they should go get themselves an "overseas" job. My brother went from making $35,000/yr as a city fireman to $180,000/yr (tax exempt) by hiring on with Fire-fighting Contractor in Saudi Arabia. The opportuniites are there, but you must stop complaining long enough to fill out an application.

Uh huh. Still waiting for what this have to do with the blame you put on minorities for your own short comings.

PSSSSST. I was in the US Army for 10 long years, I think I know Flag etiquette and actually, in some cases, a flag that touches the ground is supposed to be burned.

Uh huh - it's funny how you oppose burning a flag but not wearing it on a t-shirt.

Okay, once, I'll give you that one. But they've also been sued by the ACLU, as have Border Patrol Agents for flashing weapons as they attempted to prevent illegal aliens from crossing the border. Go figure.

Uh huh. See why your arguments are ridiculous? they are devoid of the big picture.

I said LOCAL governments as well. We've had three recall attempts in my county in the past 20 years.

OMG! And where is your evidence that most have been led by Democrats? the ones I found 2/3 were by Republicans.

Okay, that's just too far out there for me to respond. Your original quote was:
Whose picking apples? Make up your mind so I know how to respond.

Conservatives regularly complain about Mexicans taking jobs. The reality is that the jobs mexicans take are the very jobs that don't have many requirements other then being able to control your hands and feet for a period of 9 hours a day. No highschool education. These are the same people who want to be paid $12.

Where'd you get your statistics? You sure 1% is accurate?

The percentage of people who are on cocaine within the percentage of people who are on welfare is minuscule.

Evidently, you need to go back and study some high school civics as well. The "highest office" does not equate to the "most powerful" entity in government. Congress, acting in unison, has always held more power than the President. Bush didn't just send those troops to Iraq all by his lonesome - he could not have done it without Congressional Approval - which he received overwhelmingly - from Dems and Reps alike.

Still waiting for that law that says I can't sue people in all 50 states.

We're not in Iraq to "spread Democracy." This is a lie propagated through the media from the Whitehouse. Iraq is a "Police Action," and a justified one at that. By the way, compare OUR gas prices to those in Japan? China? France? Russia?

What does this have to do with your argument that gas has gotten cheaper because we invaded Iraq an exported democracy there? Gas was cheaper before we invaded Iraq. Not after.

Name-calling again? And I thought you Liberals were all about tolerance? Silly me!:roll:

Are you insulted? You have that right. You have the right to complain about it on your property. You have the right to pray about it on your property. The moment you step outside and try to feel insulted on public schools or private property, your "right" to feel offended and protest is at the discretion of those who own the properties or those who run the schools.

 

[The silenced majority]

Re: Redirection

P.S. Abortion is the free use of private property until birth when citizenship is granted, which begins the opportunity for equal protection and due process.

Somebody light a match or open up a window...

 

[Edify_Always_In_All_Ways]

Re: Redirection

Somebody light a match or open up a window...

Do you oppose his argument? I guess so. Are you trying to counter it? I suppose so?

Did you succeed? No. Did you say anything that would persuade anyone of anything or make them think? No.

I think I may try out a conservative Bill of Rights, just for fun. I'll start with one Amendment, and add to it later. Others can feel free to contribute.

1) The right to personal sovreignity, unless you are a woman with a member of the species homo sapiens developing inside you, taking you as it's unwilling host.

 

[The silenced majority]

Re: Redirection

Do you oppose his argument? I guess so. Are you trying to counter it? I suppose so?

Did you succeed? No. Did you say anything that would persuade anyone of anything or make them think? No.

I think I may try out a conservative Bill of Rights, just for fun. I'll start with one Amendment, and add to it later. Others can feel free to contribute.

1) The right to personal sovreignity, unless you are a woman with a member of the species homo sapiens developing inside you, taking you as it's unwilling host.

I think the whole establishment by the courts as to when life begins is truly asinine.

It's not even worth arguing anymore.

The courts establish *roughly* as to when life begins.

I'd prefer their methodology be far more specific - (how about 100% accurate?) when we're dealing with when life begins and when rights are to be conferred.

I mean, if we're going to be all sanctimonious about rights, laws & all.:roll:

 

[FluffyNinja]

Well this is contradictory.So we should export democracy but you don't care if democracy succeeds in Iraq? But do yo realize that the US has backed many "fanatical little warlords" when if protected it's interests? The US had no problem with Saddam when it funded his war with Iran.

Your post also had nothing to do with whether or not democracy can be exported.

Why is it contradictory? Are promoting democracy and policing action mutually exclusive? Some situations, where the security/safety of U.S. citizens is involved or where U.S. economic interests are threatened, policing action is needed - not necessarily a push for Democracy. On the other hand, there are situations involving fledgeling or Third World States in which both the U.S. and that particular nation may benefit from a push toward Western Democracy - two examples of this from the past century - Japan and South Korea. Is it possible to be in favor of both, depending on the situation? I think Japan, Taiwan, and South Korea answers the question of whether Democracy can be exported.

 

[FluffyNinja]

Which has what to do with this silly belief you have that praying in schools and being religious wherever you want to be is a right? I'm still waiting for this imaginary right.



Another non-sequitur. What does who fund public school have to do with this imaginary belief you have that praying in schools is a right?



Once again what you are allowed to do on public property like say schools are determined by the schools. What you are allowed to do on public property is determined by the people who own said property.

Thanks, you've helped prove my point. The MUSLIMS got a license, FROM their municipal government

-

You're proving your own stupidity. Muslims mosques must get a license just like Christian churches who ring bells.



Because it was no different then churches ringing bells.



Another non-sequitur. People practicing their religion legally on private property is not forcing religion on you.



It's funny how you ignored the fact that Muslim prayer calls are no different then church bells. Your continued attempt to ignore this is what makes your entire argument stupid.



Does this mean you'll stop complaining about your feigned underrepresentation? K.



What don't you understand about schools setting the rules on their grounds?



Seriously I'll repeat for the 1,000,000th time. Schools. Set. The. Rules. On. Their. Grounds.





I'm still waiting to see where protests have been banned. This is nothing more then you feigning outrage that schools(unlike your imaginary right) do have the right to determine what students do on their grounds.



Do you not understand why it's a non sequitur yet?



You're back pedalling. You made an argument and unable to substanciate it you created a what if scenario.



OMG! 500 cells! I'm still waiting to see what this has to do with your original non-sequitur argument.



Uh huh. Still waiting for what this have to do with the blame you put on minorities for your own short comings.



Uh huh - it's funny how you oppose burning a flag but not wearing it on a t-shirt.



Uh huh. See why your arguments are ridiculous? they are devoid of the big picture.



OMG! And where is your evidence that most have been led by Democrats? the ones I found 2/3 were by Republicans.



Conservatives regularly complain about Mexicans taking jobs. The reality is that the jobs mexicans take are the very jobs that don't have many requirements other then being able to control your hands and feet for a period of 9 hours a day. No highschool education. These are the same people who want to be paid $12.



The percentage of people who are on cocaine within the percentage of people who are on welfare is minuscule.



Still waiting for that law that says I can't sue people in all 50 states.




What does this have to do with your argument that gas has gotten cheaper because we invaded Iraq an exported democracy there? Gas was cheaper before we invaded Iraq. Not after.



Are you insulted? You have that right. You have the right to complain about it on your property. You have the right to pray about it on your property. The moment you step outside and try to feel insulted on public schools or private property, your "right" to feel offended and protest is at the discretion of those who own the properties or those who run the schools.

Okay, I can see this is going nowhere fast. You're obviously a walking advertisement for why No Child Left Behind should be renewed. Anyway, all I've seen is bunch of "OMG's" and "Uh Huh's" in your responses and you've obviously learned a new Latin phrase recently - "non-sequitur" - which you like to use a lot. Well as we both know, a non-sequitur is an "INFERENCE" not supported by facts. As you obviously did not notice from my very first post - my points were intended to be OPINIONS or Inferences - some based on facts (stories and scientific facts which I've posted and you've chosen to ignore) and others are just my OPINIONS - not necessarily based on hard evidence. I'm becoming weary of responding to all these OMG's, Uh-huh's and non-sequitur responses.

Peace

 

[Jray]

Why is it contradictory? Are promoting democracy and policing action mutually exclusive?

What's contradictory is that you said we should export more democracy but you don't care if a democracy is established in Iraq.

Some situations, where the security/safety of U.S. citizens is involved or where U.S. economic interests are threatened, policing action is needed - not necessarily a push for Democracy.

What about where the US has removed democracy and replaced it with dictatorship's because democracies in those areas were a threat to US interest (ex. Chile and Guatamala)?

On the other hand, there are situations involving fledgeling or Third World States in which both the U.S. and that particular nation may benefit from a push toward Western Democracy - two examples of this from the past century - Japan and South Korea. Is it possible to be in favor of both, depending on the situation? I think Japan, Taiwan, and South Korea answers the question of whether Democracy can be exported.

Japan, Taiwan and South Korea had some sort of democratic tradition, Iraq did not.

 

[DarkWizard12]

nce again what you are allowed to do on public property like say schools are determined by the schools. What you are allowed to do on public property is determined by the people who own said property.

Christians are people, and, schools don;t have any right to take freedom of speech away no matter what the people say, why? Because thats what praying is,speaking to your God so, your saying I can;t speak to my God?

Thanks, you've helped prove my point. The MUSLIMS got a license, FROM their municipal government

-

You're proving your own stupidity. Muslims mosques must get a license just like Christian churches who ring bells.

Christians are people.

BTW hatuey, just to see what you are supporting. If I'm a student and during luch, I want to pray before I eat my meal becaus eI have always been taught by my tax-paying parents that praying is good, then, I 'm free to do that, right? Because my parents pay taxes for the school I go to, right?

 

[Jray]

Christians who complain about mulslim preference is about equivalent to able-bodied people complaining about handicapped parking.

 

[FluffyNinja]

Japan, Taiwan and South Korea had some sort of democratic tradition, Iraq did not.

Japan was traditiinally controlled by warring shogunates until united by the Tokugawa Clan, after which, it was under the control of an Emperor until being all but "forced" into adopting Democracy after 1945. Where's the "Democratic tradition?"

Also, those who know History will tell you that we had an excellent opportunity to introduce Democracy in Vietnam, long before the Vietnam Conflict, and we passed it up in order to "salvage" a relationship with France in a post WWII world. Ho Chi Minh was looking for a Western ally in the late 40's/early 50's. Long before he adopted Communism as the "salvation" of his people from French Imperialism, he traveled to Europe and was "impressed" with Western Democracy. His appeal to the United States fell on deaf ears and later only the USSR and China offered a "helping hand" to this fledgeling leader. We passed up our chance for the sake of the sorry, good-for-nothing French and little did we know, it would land us in the middle of one of the longest, most unpopular conflicts in US history, fighting the very same leader we'd turned our backs on. Over 56,000 lives and umpteen millions of dollars were then lost trying to oust him.

It seems that had we "exported" a little democracy in that particular case, we'd have been much better off in the long run as would the Vietnamese people. We might have lost France as an ally - big whoop! This is a history lesson you rarely see in textbooks published by the Left-Wing media machine. Luckily for my students, I try to give them the "big picture" and then allow them to reach their own conclusions.

 

[Jray]

Japan was traditiinally controlled by warring shogunates until united by the Tokugawa Clan, after which, it was under the control of an Emperor until being all but "forced" into adopting Democracy after 1945. Where's the "Democratic tradition?"

Japan was a consitutional monarchy from 1889 until the militirist governemnt took over.
1889 Japanese Constitution

Also, those who know History will tell you that we had an excellent opportunity to introduce Democracy in Vietnam, long before the Vietnam Conflict, and we passed it up in order to "salvage" a relationship with France in a post WWII world. Ho Chi Minh was looking for a Western ally in the late 40's/early 50's. Long before he adopted Communism as the "salvation" of his people from French Imperialism, he traveled to Europe and was "impressed" with Western Democracy. His appeal to the United States fell on deaf ears and later only the USSR and China offered a "helping hand" to this fledgeling leader. We passed up our chance for the sake of the sorry, good-for-nothing French and little did we know, it would land us in the middle of one of the longest, most unpopular conflicts in US history, fighting the very same leader we'd turned our backs on. Over 56,000 lives and umpteen millions of dollars were then lost trying to oust him.

It is true Ho looked to communism in order to shake western imperialism but he was already a member of the Comintern by the 1920's.

It seems that had we "exported" a little democracy in that particular case, we'd have been much better off in the long run as would the Vietnamese people.

We exported democracy by fighting against Ho?

This is a history lesson you rarely see in textbooks published by the Left-Wing media machine. Luckily for my students, I try to give them the "big picture" and then allow them to reach their own conclusions.

Textbooks are rather conservitive but your view on Ho Chi Minh is rathe left-wing.

 

[Monk-Eye]

Problem Essentials Versus Red Herring

"Problem Essentials Versus Red Herring"

I think the whole establishment by the courts as to when life begins is truly asinine.
It's not even worth arguing anymore.
The courts establish *roughly* as to when life begins.
I'd prefer their methodology be far more specific - (how about 100% accurate?) when we're dealing with when life begins and when rights are to be conferred.
I mean, if we're going to be all sanctimonious about rights, laws & all.:roll:

The issue at hand is not - when does life begin?
The issue at hand is - when does citizenship begin?
Membership in the collective institution of laws has requirements, birth is the first one.
The emphasis on life as the issue for rights is pure ignorance.

One can discuss the demarcation of birth from scientific and philosophical perspectives, largely in regard to sentience, sapience, or viability.
However, the considerations are rarely open to supposition until the end of the second trimester.