Let's Have Libertarian Traffic Laws (A Modest Proposal)

[Harry Guerrilla]

Re: Let's Have Small-Government Traffic Laws (A Modest Proposal)

They're self-organizing within a carefully engineered framework. That's the entire point of government regulation - not to puppeteer, but to create frameworks within which the natural consequences are desirable. Libertarians generally do not support that, and do not view government as a vehicle for improving anything, including traffic.

Most of the time, that is what we're advocating for.
Well thought out and tested forms of self organization.

Possibly, but there are counter-arguments. The point is not to oppose passive regulation, but to recognize that whether you're talking about lighted intersections or engineered roundabouts, you're talking about a decision by government to improve on what the free market would provide. Self-organized traffic doesn't even need paved roads, and that's not anarchism - you could still have a wild-west style Small Government that only hangs criminals and settles disputes, and frankly that's what the vast majority of libertarians I talk to seem to think would be best.

Free markets require a legal framework to operate correctly, no rational/reasonable libertarian will tell you differently.
Now the extent is where we have problems.

Now we're having a good discussion.

 

[Psychoclown]

Re: Let's Have Small-Government Traffic Laws (A Modest Proposal)

A generic and poorly concieved strawman written by a poster who doesn't seem to know the difference between libertarianism and anarchism. On the plus side, it was written above a 5th grade level and included the word "gubmint" so I rate it 6/10 as a troll thread. Nice try.

To the OP: I'll give you a hint for the future if you're ever interested in a real discussion about libertarianism or anarchism. They are two seperate and distinct ideologies, and you offend both when you paint them as one.

 

[Troubadour]

Re: Let's Have Small-Government Traffic Laws (A Modest Proposal)

Most of the time, that is what we're advocating for.
Well thought out and tested forms of self organization.

That may be your position, but it's not my experience debating with self-described libertarians and small government conservatives. I can honestly say I don't recall having come across one whose positions were based in consideration of policy efficacy as opposed to ideological articles of faith. This is how a roundabout proposal would be received by virtually every single one of them I've encountered: They would say that a "tax-and-spend government" was trying to "impose a costly boondoggle" in order to "replace roads that already work just fine" with "European-style social experiments."

Free markets require a legal framework to operate correctly, no rational/reasonable libertarian will tell you differently.

That's exactly my position, but the meaning of "free market" has been corrupted to mean absence of structure - in other words, leaving a vacuum in which private actors can impose de facto private control of public resources. In the metaphor of the Small Government intersection, it would be someone blocking traffic and setting up a private tollbooth, citing "freedom of traffic" as their justification to impede traffic. Since rational libertarians - and I'm increasingly willing to concede that you are one - have utterly lost control of their own message to corporatists who use and discard it at their convenience, I'm afraid it's no longer practical to treat rational libertarianism as a going concern in American politics. When I use the term "libertarianism," I can only refer to the part of the phenomenon that is active in affecting change in American politics - i.e., the highly destructive, highly ideological elements who are simply determined to deconstruct and sell off American society. We can have theoretical debates, but my politics are mainly concerned with results.

 

[Ikari]

Re: Let's Have Small-Government Traffic Laws (A Modest Proposal)

BTW, **** roundabouts. Those things are stupid. I don't see what's so tough about a 4-Way stop. They claim some efficiency with intersections, but I don't see it. Mostly you're just looking around making sure no one runs into you. 4-Way stop, or if the traffic is heavy enough to warrant it, a stop light.

 

[Psychoclown]

Re: Let's Have Small-Government Traffic Laws (A Modest Proposal)

I believe the theory is two fold. Traffic is able to flow in and out of the roundabout without stopping (kinda like getting on or off an interstate highway) so traffic moves quicker. Plus without a stop sign or stop light to tell driver exactly what to do and when to do it, people will be more aware of their surroundings and drive more defensively rather than just be on auto pilot following traffic signals.

 

[Ikari]

Re: Let's Have Small-Government Traffic Laws (A Modest Proposal)

I believe the theory is two fold. Traffic is able to flow in and out of the roundabout without stopping (kinda like getting on or off an interstate highway) so traffic moves quicker. Plus without a stop sign or stop light to tell driver exactly what to do and when to do it, people will be more aware of their surroundings and drive more defensively rather than just be on auto pilot following traffic signals.

Yeah, well that may be the theory. But I haven't seen it in reality. Most of the time people seem to have little clue as to merging in and out of the roundabout. I don't live on the east coast where apparently they have a lot of these things. But the ones I've encountered would have been better served with a stop sign.

 

[spud_meister]

Re: Let's Have Small-Government Traffic Laws (A Modest Proposal)

Yeah, well that may be the theory. But I haven't seen it in reality. Most of the time people seem to have little clue as to merging in and out of the roundabout. I don't live on the east coast where apparently they have a lot of these things. But the ones I've encountered would have been better served with a stop sign.

It works, they're all over my country, and they're much better than traffic lights at most intersections.

 

[Yossarian]

Re: Let's Have Small-Government Traffic Laws (A Modest Proposal)

It's horses for courses. There was a large roundabout near my house a few years ago, but it was removed because it could not handle the traffic flow. In some places, traffic lights work better, in other places they do not. The point is that road engineering should not be about ideology - it should be about matching road design and traffic management to specific locations, as appropriate, with the primary intention of preventing tragedy.