Lethal injection for fetus is “like a flu shot or a vaccine”[W:215]

[shrubnose]

Re: Lethal injection for fetus is “like a flu shot or a vaccine”

And in the case of abortion, it is murder!

That is your wacky opinion which most Americans disagree with.

 

[trfjr]

Re: Lethal injection for fetus is “like a flu shot or a vaccine”

I do not think slavery is or ever was moral. However, I do not think you can argue the same for abortion for several reasons.

Slavery is about persons having the right to own, control, and use the bodies and lives of others against their will and/or without their consent and to profit from that ownership. Abortion is about persons having the right to own, control, and use one's own body and life and preventing other beings, whether persons or not, from controlling and using one's own body and life against one's will and/or without one's consent to function as life support for those beings to the detriment of one's own bodily and psychological well being.

Hence, the right to own slaves and the right to have an abortion are logical opposites. If anyone in the abortion debate should be complaining about the immorality of slavery, it is rather the pro-choice people who should do so, because unwanted pregnancy is involuntary servitude of women against their own well being for the benefit of the embryo or fetus.

Slavery was wrong because the entities involved were rational beings and have comprehended what life was the unborn are not big difference. Just more apples to oranges comparisons on your side

If abortion is slavery, then anything that has a animal class brain that is owned is a slave then.

here is the problem about like the same problem they had 150 years ago. both of you think abortion is morally right just as the southerners thought slavery was morally right for the same reason. southerners did not think blacks where human just some sub species just like you don't think the unborn are human there for nether should have the rights as one. Both of you are delusional so to justify something that is immoral

 

[choiceone]

Re: Lethal injection for fetus is “like a flu shot or a vaccine”

here is the problem about like the same problem they had 150 years ago. you think abortion is morally right just as the southerners thought slavery was morally right for the same reason. southerners did not think blacks where human just some sub species just like you don't think the unborn are human there for nether should have the rights as one. Both of you are delusional so to justify something that is immoral

You are incorrect. I would not care if the unborn were fully developed, conscious persons exactly like 20 year olds. They would still not have any legal right to use other people's bodies and lives for life support. In fact, if you have a born child who will die without a transfusion of compatible blood and your blood is the only compatible blood within a thousand miles, the state does not have the right to force you to give blood to save your born child. And giving blood is a lark compared to pregnancy and childbirth.

Nobody has the right to use a person's body or life as a residence or source of nutrients or oxygen, the right to suppress a person's immune system for his/her own benefit, etc., etc. It doesn't matter if they are persons or born or unborn. So this is not about thinking that embryos and fetuses are subhuman. Just as you don't have the right to put or keep your body parts in my sex organs without my consent, or suppress my immune system to my detriment for your benefit, put toxic waste in my blood, etc., if I do not consent, an embryo or fetus does not have that right if a woman does not consent. And consent to sex is not, has never been, and will never be consent to pregnancy.

And it's worth your noting that, in slavery, it was the slave who did not consent to slavery, while the slaveowner thought it was a-okay. So in unwanted pregnancy, it is the woman who did not consent to pregnancy, while the embryo and a bunch of anti-abortion activists think it's fine to force the woman to be pregnant. After all, lots of anti-abortion people wouldn't even make an exception in anti-abortion laws for victims impregnanted via rape.

 

[trfjr]

Re: Lethal injection for fetus is “like a flu shot or a vaccine”

You are incorrect. I would not care if the unborn were fully developed, conscious persons exactly like 20 year olds. They would still not have any legal right to use other people's bodies and lives for life support. In fact, if you have a born child who will die without a transfusion of compatible blood and your blood is the only compatible blood within a thousand miles, the state does not have the right to force you to give blood to save your born child. And giving blood is a lark compared to pregnancy and childbirth.

Nobody has the right to use a person's body or life as a residence or source of nutrients or oxygen, the right to suppress a person's immune system for his/her own benefit, etc., etc. It doesn't matter if they are persons or born or unborn. So this is not about thinking that embryos and fetuses are subhuman. Just as you don't have the right to put or keep your body parts in my sex organs without my consent, or suppress my immune system to my detriment for your benefit, put toxic waste in my blood, etc., if I do not consent, an embryo or fetus does not have that right if a woman does not consent. And consent to sex is not, has never been, and will never be consent to pregnancy.

big difference apples and oranges. you cant charge some one with murder for some ones inactions, but you sure can charge some one with murder for there actions

If some one is hanging off a cliff and i dont attempt to pull them up and they fall that isnt murder, but if i push them off that cliff that is murder

 

[choiceone]

Re: Lethal injection for fetus is “like a flu shot or a vaccine”

big difference apples and oranges. you cant charge some one with murder for some ones inactions, but you sure can charge some one with murder for there actions

If some one is hanging off a cliff and i dont attempt to pull them up and they fall that isnt murder, but if i push them off that cliff that is murder

You fail to get it again. If someone is hanging off a cliff, that someone is not violating the inside of someone else's body. If someone is violating the inside of a person's body by being inside it without that person's consent and is affecting that body adversely without that person's consent, the violated and adversely affected person has a right to get that someone out of and off of his or her body. Abortion is the only way available to get that someone out of and off of his or her body without damaging the person's body in the case of pregnancy. The fact that an embryo or previable fetus dies when abortion is performed is because it is not capable of living without using the woman's blood oxygen, nutrients, and antibodies. In fact, when a pregnant woman just dies, if she is only carrying an embryo or pre-viable fetus, the latter will die even if doctors make an immediate attempt to remove it to help it live. The embryo or pre-viable fetus does not have a life of its own - it is living merely as a part of the woman's body.

 

[minnie616]

Re: Lethal injection for fetus is “like a flu shot or a vaccine”

:lamo :lamo :lamo

You do know the bible was talking about murdering people, not animals, ....

Correct , the Bible was talking about murdering people.
It was not taking about a woman aborting her fetus.

 

[Oftencold]

Re: Lethal injection for fetus is “like a flu shot or a vaccine”

Well that's why I favor abortion be done as early as possible - because a 2 month old turns 2 . . . .and 12 . . . and so on.

You did know, did you not, the the large Nazi gas chambers were invented to replace gunshot executions and traveling auto exhaust chambers partly out of similar "compassion," yes?

In other word, in both the Nazi Death Camp Model, and certain parts of the American Abortion Death Model, homicide is okay, so long as it is practiced against an unprotected and weak minority in as nice a way as practical.

 

[minnie616]

Re: Lethal injection for fetus is “like a flu shot or a vaccine”

:lamo :lamo :lamo

I am a pro choice Christian. and I am a member of a Church that is pro choice also.

We feel women have a right to an early abortion if they feel that is the best choice at the time.
We do not believe that an early fetus is yet a person.

It is important to be aware that tens of millions of pro choice people are also Christians or of Jewish faith and that many of our members and leaders were referring woman to safe ( for the woman) abortion services even before Roe vs Wade.

Many in the RCRC do NOT believe that life/ensoulment begins with conception.
They believe that life/ensoulment begins later in the pregnancy or at birth.

A little history of The Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice which includes many religious groups including:

Conservative Judaism
Rabbinical Assembly
United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
Women’s League for Conservative Judaism

Episcopal Church


Ethical Culture
American Ethical Union National Service Conference

Humanist Judaism
Society for Humanistic Judaism

Presbyterian Church (USA)

Reconstructionist Judaism
Jewish Reconstructionist Federation
Reconstructionist Rabbinical Association

Reform Judaism
Central Conference of American Rabbis
North American Federation of Temple Youth
Union for Reform Judaism
Women of Reform Judaism, The Federation of Temple Sisterhoods
Women’s Rabbinic Network of Central Conference of American Rabbis

United Church of Christ


United Methodist Church
General Board of Church and Society, United Methodist Church
General Board of Global Ministries, Women’s Division, United Methodist Church

Unitarian Universalist
Unitarian Universalist Association
Unitarian Universalist Women’s Federation
Young Religious Unitarian Universalists
Continental Unitarian Universalist Young Adult Network

Caucuses/Organizations
American Jewish Committee
American Jewish Congress
Anti-Defamation League
Catholics for Choice
Christian Lesbians Out (CLOUT)
Church of the Brethren Womaen’s Caucus
Disciples for Choice
Episcopal Urban Caucus
Episcopal Women’s Caucus
Hadassah, WZOA
Jewish Women International
Lutheran Women’s Caucus
Methodist Federation for Social Action
NA’AMAT USA
National Council of Jewish Women
Presbyterians Affirming Reproductive Options (PARO)
Women’s American ORT
YWCA of the USA

RCRC was founded in 1973 to safeguard the newly won constitutional right to privacy in decisions about abortion.
The Coalition founders were clergy and lay leaders from mainstream religions, many of whom had provided women with referrals to safe abortion services before the Supreme Court legalized abortion in Roe v. Wade.
The founders believed that there would be at most a ten-year struggle to secure the right to choose. In fact the struggle is far from over. It has changed and intensified, and the stakes are growing.

Today, the Religious Coalition comprises national organizations from major faiths and traditions and religiously affiliated and independent religious organizations, affiliates throughout the country, the national Clergy for Choice network, Spiritual Youth for Reproductive Freedom, The National Black Church Initiative, La Iniciativa Latina and individuals who support reproductive choice and religious freedom. We have a strong presence on Capitol Hill, working for policies to ensure reproductive healthservices are available to all, regardless of income and to strengthen reproductive justice.

While our member organizations are religiously and theologically diverse, they are unified in the commitment to preserve reproductive choice as a basic part of religious liberty.

Our rational, healing perspective looks beyond the bitter abortion debate to seek solutions to pressing problems such as unintended pregnancy, the spread of HIV/AIDS, inadequate health care and health insurance, and the severe reduction in reproductive health care services.

We support access to sex education, family planning and contraception, affordable child care and health care, and adoption services as well as safe, legal, abortion services, regardless of income. As an organization committed to reproductive justice, we work for public policies that ensure the medical, economic, and educational resources necessary for healthy families and communities that are equipped to nurture children in peace and love.

RCRC - Dedicated to Reproductive Justice

 

[trfjr]

Re: Lethal injection for fetus is “like a flu shot or a vaccine”

You fail to get it again. If someone is hanging off a cliff, that someone is not violating the inside of someone else's body. If someone is violating the inside of a person's body by being inside it without that person's consent and is affecting that body adversely without that person's consent, the violated and adversely affected person has a right to get that someone out of and off of his or her body. Abortion is the only way available to get that someone out of and off of his or her body without damaging the person's body in the case of pregnancy. The fact that an embryo or previable fetus dies when abortion is performed is because it is not capable of living without using the woman's blood oxygen, nutrients, and antibodies. In fact, when a pregnant woman just dies, if she is only carrying an embryo or pre-viable fetus, the latter will die even if doctors make an immediate attempt to remove it to help it live. The embryo or pre-viable fetus does not have a life of its own - it is living merely as a part of the woman's body.

you gave consent. you gave that consent when you decided to have sex. did they not teach you that in school did your parents not have the birds and bees conversation with you
you knew the risk you accepted that risk and you should accept the consequences of that risk
It humors me how abortion activist tie them selves and knots trying to twist their minds into believing they are in no why responsible for their pregnancy that they should not be held responsible for their actions that they shouldn't accept the consequences of having sex.
murders do it all the time. they twist them selves into believing that they are not personally responsible for committing that murder they do it so to absolve them selves of any guilt so i guess they can sleep at night

 

[trfjr]

Re: Lethal injection for fetus is “like a flu shot or a vaccine”

I am a pro choice Christian. and I am a member of a Church that is pro choice also.

We feel women have a right to an early abortion if they feel that is the best choice at the time.
We do not believe that an early fetus is yet a person.

It is important to be aware that tens of millions of pro choice people are also Christians or of Jewish faith and that many of our members and leaders were referring woman to safe ( for the woman) abortion services even before Roe vs Wade.

Many in the RCRC do NOT believe that life/ensoulment begins with conception.
They believe that life/ensoulment begins later in the pregnancy or at birth.

A little history of The Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice which includes many religious groups including:

Conservative Judaism
Rabbinical Assembly
United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
Women’s League for Conservative Judaism

Episcopal Church


Ethical Culture
American Ethical Union National Service Conference

Humanist Judaism
Society for Humanistic Judaism

Presbyterian Church (USA)

Reconstructionist Judaism
Jewish Reconstructionist Federation
Reconstructionist Rabbinical Association

Reform Judaism
Central Conference of American Rabbis
North American Federation of Temple Youth
Union for Reform Judaism
Women of Reform Judaism, The Federation of Temple Sisterhoods
Women’s Rabbinic Network of Central Conference of American Rabbis

United Church of Christ


United Methodist Church
General Board of Church and Society, United Methodist Church
General Board of Global Ministries, Women’s Division, United Methodist Church

Unitarian Universalist
Unitarian Universalist Association
Unitarian Universalist Women’s Federation
Young Religious Unitarian Universalists
Continental Unitarian Universalist Young Adult Network

Caucuses/Organizations
American Jewish Committee
American Jewish Congress
Anti-Defamation League
Catholics for Choice
Christian Lesbians Out (CLOUT)
Church of the Brethren Womaen’s Caucus
Disciples for Choice
Episcopal Urban Caucus
Episcopal Women’s Caucus
Hadassah, WZOA
Jewish Women International
Lutheran Women’s Caucus
Methodist Federation for Social Action
NA’AMAT USA
National Council of Jewish Women
Presbyterians Affirming Reproductive Options (PARO)
Women’s American ORT
YWCA of the USA




RCRC - Dedicated to Reproductive Justice

even though the bible doesn't directly address abortion, but there are many passages that they refer to the unborn as a person there for all Christian beliefs should be applied to the unborn just like a person. like you shall not murder

 

[Removable Mind]

Re: Lethal injection for fetus is “like a flu shot or a vaccine”

It does no good to continue to argue with a fool. Tell them what God say, and let them go. Remember, don't cast your pearls before swine

So...does everything in the Koran coincide with your beliefs?

 

[Removable Mind]

Re: Lethal injection for fetus is “like a flu shot or a vaccine”

There are two types of people who don't believe in God. Those that are ignorant and those that are reprobate.

If you feel compelled to preach, you might find that your beliefs can be argued in the "Religion" forum. We are sincerely trying to respect your superstitions, but it's difficult in context to discussions regard medical and legal issue related to abortion.

 

[Removable Mind]

Re: Lethal injection for fetus is “like a flu shot or a vaccine”

you gave consent. you gave that consent when you decided to have sex. did they not teach you that in school did your parents not have the birds and bees conversation with you
you knew the risk you accepted that risk and you should accept the consequences of that risk
It humors me how abortion activist tie them selves and knots trying to twist their minds into believing they are in no why responsible for their pregnancy that they should not be held responsible for their actions that they shouldn't accept the consequences of having sex.
murders do it all the time. they twist them selves into believing that they are not personally responsible for committing that murder they do it so to absolve them selves of any guilt so i guess they can sleep at night

Do so completely disrespect women that you find it contemptible that they possess the RIGHTS to manage their own bodies and reproduction that you feel it necessary to make an argument that they are not allowed to have sex unless they automatically are forced to accept that a sexual act constitutes the chance of becoming pregnant, of which they must bring to term, regardless?

According to your beliefs having uterus is a life sentence of being responsible for all conceptions and births. And for what reason? Because you believe a fetus trumps over the value of a born person? And fetus trump value over a born person because...? Either you believe that they exist for a reason, which being here for a "reason" means somebody or something has made a reason. Or you believe that all fetuses are necessary to prevent the extinction of humanity.

Once again. Most conceptions are brought to full term. The reasons for abortions are many. But it seems that you are myopic to all of the possible reasons.

 

[nota bene]

Re: Lethal injection for fetus is “like a flu shot or a vaccine”

I am a pro choice Christian. and I am a member of a Church that is pro choice also.

We feel women have a right to an early abortion if they feel that is the best choice at the time.
We do not believe that an early fetus is yet a person.

It is important to be aware that tens of millions of pro choice people are also Christians or of Jewish faith and that many of our members and leaders were referring woman to safe ( for the woman) abortion services even before Roe vs Wade.

Many in the RCRC do NOT believe that life/ensoulment begins with conception.
They believe that life/ensoulment begins later in the pregnancy or at birth.

A little history of The Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice which includes many religious groups including:

Conservative Judaism
Rabbinical Assembly
United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
Women’s League for Conservative Judaism

Episcopal Church


Ethical Culture
American Ethical Union National Service Conference

Humanist Judaism
Society for Humanistic Judaism

Presbyterian Church (USA)

Reconstructionist Judaism
Jewish Reconstructionist Federation
Reconstructionist Rabbinical Association

Reform Judaism
Central Conference of American Rabbis
North American Federation of Temple Youth
Union for Reform Judaism
Women of Reform Judaism, The Federation of Temple Sisterhoods
Women’s Rabbinic Network of Central Conference of American Rabbis

United Church of Christ


United Methodist Church
General Board of Church and Society, United Methodist Church
General Board of Global Ministries, Women’s Division, United Methodist Church

Unitarian Universalist
Unitarian Universalist Association
Unitarian Universalist Women’s Federation
Young Religious Unitarian Universalists
Continental Unitarian Universalist Young Adult Network

Caucuses/Organizations
American Jewish Committee
American Jewish Congress
Anti-Defamation League
Catholics for Choice
Christian Lesbians Out (CLOUT)
Church of the Brethren Womaen’s Caucus
Disciples for Choice
Episcopal Urban Caucus
Episcopal Women’s Caucus
Hadassah, WZOA
Jewish Women International
Lutheran Women’s Caucus
Methodist Federation for Social Action
NA’AMAT USA
National Council of Jewish Women
Presbyterians Affirming Reproductive Options (PARO)
Women’s American ORT
YWCA of the USA




RCRC - Dedicated to Reproductive Justice

Minnie, could you just ask to put up a sticky with this list? This is the 4th or 5th time you've posted it, and maybe it would be more convenient for everybody if it were stickied.

 

[choiceone]

Re: Lethal injection for fetus is “like a flu shot or a vaccine”

you gave consent. you gave that consent when you decided to have sex. did they not teach you that in school did your parents not have the birds and bees conversation with you
you knew the risk you accepted that risk and you should accept the consequences of that risk
It humors me how abortion activist tie them selves and knots trying to twist their minds into believing they are in no why responsible for their pregnancy that they should not be held responsible for their actions that they shouldn't accept the consequences of having sex.
murders do it all the time. they twist them selves into believing that they are not personally responsible for committing that murder they do it so to absolve them selves of any guilt so i guess they can sleep at night

The moment you move in your logic from "You knew the risk" to "You accepted that risk and you should accept the consequences of that risk," I smile. Just because one knows that an activity involves a risk and you acknowledge that risk does not mean you accept that risk and should accept the consequences of it.

If I know that walking across the street involves a risk of getting hit by a car, and I acknowledge that risk, that does not mean I accept the risk - I minimize the risk by looking both ways before crossing and being prepared to retreat or cross in a hurry - and certainly does not mean that, if a car hits me, I should just live with the resultant injuries. Cars are not supposed to hit people who are crossing legally. Hence, the resultant injuries are unjust and I will certainly seek any help to minimize them, shorten my experience of them, etc.

Pregnancy is not supposed to happen to people who have taken any action to prevent it and thus have objectively expressed the fact that they don't want it. The resultant pregnancy is unjust and I would certainly seek any help to stop it.

You have twisted yourself into believing that a human embryo is a person even though it's not, so it is hardly surprising that you imagine abortion is murder and go about speaking from that illusion, falsely accusing innocent persons of committing it. It's a wonder there is any difference between you waking and dreaming experience.

 

[trfjr]

Re: Lethal injection for fetus is “like a flu shot or a vaccine”

Do so completely disrespect women that you find it contemptible that they possess the RIGHTS to manage their own bodies and reproduction that you feel it necessary to make an argument that they are not allowed to have sex unless they automatically are forced to accept that a sexual act constitutes the chance of becoming pregnant, of which they must bring to term, regardless?

According to your beliefs having uterus is a life sentence of being responsible for all conceptions and births. And for what reason? Because you believe a fetus trumps over the value of a born person? And fetus trump value over a born person because...? Either you believe that they exist for a reason, which being here for a "reason" means somebody or something has made a reason. Or you believe that all fetuses are necessary to prevent the extinction of humanity.

Once again. Most conceptions are brought to full term. The reasons for abortions are many. But it seems that you are myopic to all of the possible reasons.

i feel the right to life trumps the right for a women not to be inconvenience that followed with her decision she made to have sex

 

[choiceone]

Re: Lethal injection for fetus is “like a flu shot or a vaccine”

even though the bible doesn't directly address abortion, but there are many passages that they refer to the unborn as a person there for all Christian beliefs should be applied to the unborn just like a person. like you shall not murder

There are no passages in the Bible that refer to the unborn as a person, which is, in Hebrew, nephesh or nefesh adam. The Exodus 21: 22-25 passage in the Torah as interpreted in Jewish exegesis, a case law example in the Mishnah, and several passages in the Talmud all clearly convey the idea that the embryo or fetus that is in a woman's body is a part of her body and not a person.

 

[trfjr]

Re: Lethal injection for fetus is “like a flu shot or a vaccine”

There are no passages in the Bible that refer to the unborn as a person, which is, in Hebrew, nephesh or nefesh adam. The Exodus 21: 22-25 passage in the Torah as interpreted in Jewish exegesis, a case law example in the Mishnah, and several passages in the Talmud all clearly convey the idea that the embryo or fetus that is in a woman's body is a part of her body and not a person.

Gen. 25:21,22 In Genesis 25:21,22, Rebekah conceived twins, and "the children struggled together within her." That which was conceived was called a "child" between the conception and the birth.
The Hebrew word used here (BEN) is the most common Old Testament word for a child or son. When used for the physical offspring of humans, it consistently refers to distinct human individuals (see Gen. 25:1-4; 3:16; etc.). Job 3:3
On the very night of Job's conception it could have been said, "There is a man-child conceived." The word for "man-child" (Heb. GEBER) elsewhere means "man," i.e., a human individual (see Job 3:23; 4:17; 10:5; Psalms 127:5; 128:4; etc.).
Job 3:16 Babies that die before birth are called "infants" that never saw light. This is exactly like babies that are aborted. This word (Heb. OLEL) always and without exception refers to human individuals (cf. Hosea 13:16; Psalm 8:2; Joel 2:16).
Numbers 12:12; Luke 1:43 In Numbers 12:12, Moses describes "one dead, of whom the flesh is half consumed when he cometh out of his mother's womb." If a baby dies before it is born -- as in an abortion -- the woman who conceived it is still a "mother."
In Luke 1:43, Elizabeth addressed Mary as "the mother of my Lord" before Jesus was born.
The word "mother" (Heb. EM; Greek METER), in contexts referring to physical human reproduction, always refers to one who has procreated or formed another human individual, a separate and distinct individual from the mother herself (see Num. 6:7; Gen. 3:20; Luke 1:60). A woman who has conceived, even if the child is not yet born and even if it dies before birth, is a "mother."
Luke 1:41,44 Elizabeth conceived (v. 24), and the life "in her womb" is called a "babe" or "baby" (Greek BREPHOS). This is the second-most-common New Testament word for a baby. It is always used for that which is a human individual separate and distinct from its mother (see Luke 2:12,16; Acts 7:19.)
Luke 1:36 Again, the life conceived in Elizabeth's womb, before it was born, is called "a son." The word "son" (Greek HUIOS), in contexts that refer to the physical offspring of humans, always refers to that which is a human individual separate and distinct as an individual from its parents. It is the most common New Testament word for a "son" (see Matt. 1:21,23,25; Luke 1:13,31; 2:7; etc.)

 

[choiceone]

Re: Lethal injection for fetus is “like a flu shot or a vaccine”

i feel the right to life trumps the right for a women not to be inconvenience that followed with her decision she made to have sex

We all understand that you feel that way.

But you have not yet addressed why you feel the fetus has a right to the woman's own life and body, why it has that right even if it will so adversely affect her health that she will die or become permanently blind, incontinent, infertile, or legally insane, or experience constant pelvic pain that disables her for years, feels compelled to commit suicide, becomes incapable of working for her living, or becomes incapable of supporting her existing children, etc. Because those are not mere inconveniences and every one of those possibilities and "risks" can go with a pregnancy.

Nor have you explained your position when the woman has been made pregnant via rape. Nor have you explained your position when a little eight year old girl is pregnancy via rape.

So you have not explained whether or not you would make any exception, or, if you would make exceptions, what those exceptions would be and how you would justify them, and why we should let you be the one to decide what reasons for abortion are valid rather than letting the pregnant person decide.

 

[trfjr]

Re: Lethal injection for fetus is “like a flu shot or a vaccine”

You have twisted yourself into believing that a human embryo is a person even though it's not, so it is hardly surprising that you imagine abortion is murder and go about speaking from that illusion, falsely accusing innocent persons of committing it. It's a wonder there is any difference between you waking and dreaming experience.

i use science to justify my belief you use guilt, denial, and delusion to justify yours

Some of the world’s most prominent scientists and physicians testified to a U.S. Senate committee that human life begins at conception

Scientists Attest To Life Beginning At Conception - Resources - Eternal Perspective Ministries

so are you a flat earther are you denying science

 

[trfjr]

Re: Lethal injection for fetus is “like a flu shot or a vaccine”

We all understand that you feel that way.

But you have not yet addressed why you feel the fetus has a right to the woman's own life and body, why it has that right even if it will so adversely affect her health that she will die or become permanently blind, incontinent, infertile, or legally insane, or experience constant pelvic pain that disables her for years, feels compelled to commit suicide, becomes incapable of working for her living, or becomes incapable of supporting her existing children, etc. Because those are not mere inconveniences and every one of those possibilities and "risks" can go with a pregnancy.

Nor have you explained your position when the woman has been made pregnant via rape. Nor have you explained your position when a little eight year old girl is pregnancy via rape.

So you have not explained whether or not you would make any exception, or, if you would make exceptions, what those exceptions would be and how you would justify them, and why we should let you be the one to decide what reasons for abortion are valid rather than letting the pregnant person decide.

because I am a libertarian and the right to life is the most sacred right of them all and i and science believes the unborn is a human there for deserves the basic rights allotted to all humans

but i will concede for political reasons to allow women to decide to abort in the case of rape and life of the mother not health but life it goes against my beliefs but willing to over look that for those circumstances

 

[choiceone]

Re: Lethal injection for fetus is “like a flu shot or a vaccine”

Gen. 25:21,22 In Genesis 25:21,22, Rebekah conceived twins, and "the children struggled together within her." That which was conceived was called a "child" between the conception and the birth.
The Hebrew word used here (BEN) is the most common Old Testament word for a child or son. When used for the physical offspring of humans, it consistently refers to distinct human individuals (see Gen. 25:1-4; 3:16; etc.). Job 3:3


On the very night of Job's conception it could have been said, "There is a man-child conceived." The word for "man-child" (Heb. GEBER) elsewhere means "man," i.e., a human individual (see Job 3:23; 4:17; 10:5; Psalms 127:5; 128:4; etc.).
Job 3:16 Babies that die before birth are called "infants" that never saw light. This is exactly like babies that are aborted. This word (Heb. OLEL) always and without exception refers to human individuals (cf. Hosea 13:16; Psalm 8:2; Joel 2:16).
Numbers 12:12; Luke 1:43 In Numbers 12:12, Moses describes "one dead, of whom the flesh is half consumed when he cometh out of his mother's womb." If a baby dies before it is born -- as in an abortion -- the woman who conceived it is still a "mother."
In Luke 1:43, Elizabeth addressed Mary as "the mother of my Lord" before Jesus was born.
The word "mother" (Heb. EM; Greek METER), in contexts referring to physical human reproduction, always refers to one who has procreated or formed another human individual, a separate and distinct individual from the mother herself (see Num. 6:7; Gen. 3:20; Luke 1:60). A woman who has conceived, even if the child is not yet born and even if it dies before birth, is a "mother."
Luke 1:41,44 Elizabeth conceived (v. 24), and the life "in her womb" is called a "babe" or "baby" (Greek BREPHOS). This is the second-most-common New Testament word for a baby. It is always used for that which is a human individual separate and distinct from its mother (see Luke 2:12,16; Acts 7:19.)
Luke 1:36 Again, the life conceived in Elizabeth's womb, before it was born, is called "a son." The word "son" (Greek HUIOS), in contexts that refer to the physical offspring of humans, always refers to that which is a human individual separate and distinct as an individual from its parents. It is the most common New Testament word for a "son" (see Matt. 1:21,23,25; Luke 1:13,31; 2:7; etc.)

Unfortunately for you, the passage about Rebekah is one of the passages that concerns a wanted pregnancy that Rebekah and Isaac prayed for and which God takes credit for, and it is also a symbolic pregnancy, in that God explains that the "children" are nations. The passages about Elizabeth's pregnancy and Mary's pregnancy, like some others you did not mention, also concern pregnancies that were wanted and prayed for in advance and/or that God specifically takes credit for. God does not claim to be the father of all children.

As for the other passages:
Job 3:3 is a past tense passage in which Job refers to his conception long after he was born and grew up, so it is not clear that this usage is pertinent.
Job 3:16 refers to an untimely birth with the word "nefel," which means a stillbirth, i.e., a baby born dead, not an abortion or a miscarriage. Yes, it does refer to human individuals, because a stillborn child is a born child (which is why the translation "untimely birth" is used).
Numbers 12:12 "Let her [the mother] not be as one dead, of whom the flesh is half-consumed, when he [the child] comes out of his mother's womb."
This passage is referring to the moment of the birth of a child, at which moment the woman is of course a mother, since as the child comes out, she is a mother.

You simply haven't given any persuasive examples. Those of Rebekah and Elizabeth are wanted and prayed for pregnancies for which God takes specific credit. That of Mary is a pregnancy where Mary is given a specific opportunity beforehand to accept or reject pregnancy after receiving considerable information about the future child and is a pregnancy God also specifically takes credit for, in speaking to Joseph. Those from Job and numbers do not exemplify the points you claim.

 

[GEIxBattleRifle]

Re: Lethal injection for fetus is “like a flu shot or a vaccine”

.......

Here is the problem I agree that the unborn are human but just because they're human does not mean now they get right to life. As that concept need only apply to entities who can agree towards it which the average slave back then in the day would've been able to make the agreement towards it.

Like I said I believe slavery was wrong back then not because they were humans but because the entities had rationality morals/ethics. The unborn do not thus they're like most ordinary animals and are to be treated as such.

The abortion debate already moved beyond the human this and that part which pro lifers like you want to cling to desperately and continue to keep spouting it out. It hasn't been working the past 40 years so I think it's time to try a different approach to this.

The only relevant question towards the abortion debate is ''What gives something the right to life?'' Answering this question is only an opinion at best

 

[AGENT J]

Re: Lethal injection for fetus is “like a flu shot or a vaccine”

No, they don't. Murder is still murder regardless of what word is used to soothe the conscience.

sorry you are factually wrong
your false opinion of murder is meaningless :shrug:

 

[GEIxBattleRifle]

Re: Lethal injection for fetus is “like a flu shot or a vaccine”

you gave consent. you gave that consent when you decided to have sex. did they not teach you that in school did your parents not have the birds and bees conversation with you
you knew the risk you accepted that risk and you should accept the consequences of that risk
It humors me how abortion activist tie them selves and knots trying to twist their minds into believing they are in no why responsible for their pregnancy that they should not be held responsible for their actions that they shouldn't accept the consequences of having sex.

Haha the old run responsibilities and consequences talk that pro lifers like to push out there. Here is the deal

There are no particular responsibilities forced upon the participants, if a pregnancy begins. They can deal with it however they choose.

It's about time your side accept this at face value