Latest court decision on same sex marriage

[Jerry]

I'm guessing that you find Abraham to be a sinful man, and Salomon to be a very sinful one in that aspect then?

Of course. Jesus was the only man to never sin. IIRC God never told Abraham to lay with Hagar.

 

[Jerry]

remember when u said this

I think of divorce as part of the greater right to marry.




so how are they giving up there rights by using them and retaining them?

They aren't, and I never said they were. I never said they were giving up any right by divorcing. I said they're basicaly spitting in the face of the movment. And they are.

 

[Lakryte]

The marriage they were in is what they gave up. That's what divorce is.

But what is being fought for is the right to marry in the first place, which is not given up in a divorce. So your point is moot and irrelevant.

 

[Jerry]

The rest of my post you did not quote already refuted that.

You disagreed, is all. You refuted nothing.

 

[Jerry]

yet that's not what your accusing them of throwing away

Yes it is. The marriage, the arguments, etc.

 

[blarg]

They aren't, and I never said they were. I never said they were giving up any right by divorcing. I said they're basicaly spitting in the face of the movment. And they are.

how? according to you its a part of the rights they have struggled for



the only 1 doing the spiting is you

 

[blarg]

Yes it is. The marriage, the arguments, etc.

what arguments for gay marge dose divorce throw away?

what pro gay marriage argument relies upon or said that gay people wont divorce

 

[blarg]

I think of divorce as part of the greater right to marry, not as it's own unique right. If driving were a right then divorce would be parking your car and getting out. Parking is just part of driving (yeah, the car analogy again, I just went there).

this still doesn't match the rest of what you have to say man

 

[jcfranka]

Slavery - not sinful
Beating your slave with a rod to within an inch of death - not sinful
Kidnapping and rape of young virgin girls - not sinful
Men having multiple wives and female sex slaves - not sinful
Dashing babies against the rocks to kill them and slitting open the bellies of pregnant women - not sinful


A same sex couple in a loving committed relationship getting married? Vile - abominable...worst sin EVER!

What century is this again?

I'm sorry, I don't live by the Old Testament Laws (which have all been replaced: Patriarchal -> Mosaic -> Christian). These sets of laws were understood to be flawed by God, they were never intended to be perfect. They were a means of coming to Christianity.

I suppose that you would now say that slavery was espoused in the New Testament as well; while the practice was not outright condemned, Roman slavery of that time period was not the same as the slavery found in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries. It was much closer to indentured servitude.

God doesn't take people or culture and make them perfect; he takes you from where you are and moves you closer to it. That is a theme throughout the Old and New Testaments.

 

[jcfranka]

The scripture is full of polygamy and many other things most people would consider wrong today. Yet I guarantee you would be against that.

Saying gay attraction is not a sin, but sex acts outside of marriage are a sin and gay people cannot marry each other, is no better than saying gay attraction is a sin.

Then I must be saying that people with anger issues are sinful, right? People who have a desire to practice bestiality? A married man or woman who is attracted to someone besides their spouse?

Action is sinful, not attraction. And there is only one Biblical situation where the act if sex is not considered sin. Yes, polygamy was practiced in the Old Testament; but Christ set the standard for the New. One man, one woman for life except in the case of fornication.

 

[Jerry]

how? according to you its a part of the rights they have struggled for

They're throwing away the thing they fought for, is how.

 

[Jerry]

what arguments for gay marge dose divorce throw away?

All of them. See the entire archive of the Sex & Sexuality forum for the exhaustive list of all such arguments.

what pro gay marriage argument relies upon or said that gay people wont divorce

I don't know, which ones?

 

[Jerry]

this still doesn't match the rest of what you have to say man

Yeah, divorce is part of the greater right to marry, and when gays divorce while the rights movment is still fighting on, that's ironc.

 

[opendebate]

Yeah, divorce is part of the greater right to marry, and when gays divorce while the rights movment is still fighting on, that's ironc.

How so?

 

[maquiscat]

Of course. Jesus was the only man to never sin. IIRC God never told Abraham to lay with Hagar.

See problem here is that you are assigning sins to a culture where those actions were not sins. There was nothing prior the the Catholic church that made sex outside of marriage a sin save in certain situations, and even that was not part of Jesus' teachings. That was Paul's little quirk. Adultery was not sex outside of marriage where a marriage was in place. Salomon was not sinning when he had sex with his concubines. Nor was Abraham with Hagar.

 

[Jerry]

How so?

Already answered.

 

[Jerry]

See problem here is that you are assigning sins to a culture where those actions were not sins. There was nothing prior the the Catholic church that made sex outside of marriage a sin save in certain situations, and even that was not part of Jesus' teachings. That was Paul's little quirk. Adultery was not sex outside of marriage where a marriage was in place. Salomon was not sinning when he had sex with his concubines. Nor was Abraham with Hagar.

If thats what you believe then you should go open a thread on that topic as its not what's being discussed here.

 

[Ceist]

Of course. Jesus was the only man to never sin. IIRC God never told Abraham to lay with Hagar.

Did you forget that in the biblical stories, Abraham also had female concubines and sired children with them? Did you also forget that Sarah was Abraham's half-sister (incest)? There was also Keturah- another wife.

Abraham was "Yahweh's" poster boy, so clearly "Yahweh" condoned it. That was reflective of the patriarchal culture at the time. This is only one of the many examples of why it's so obvious that ordinary men (not some omniscient Deity) wrote the biblical texts and created their god(s) to suit themselves.

Did you also forget this is the 21st century? Not The Ancient Near East bronze age?

 

[Ceist]

There is much irony, if not hypocrisy. Fight so hard to get something only to give it up shortly after.

The real irony is people in the 21st century using the Bible as a guide for 'morality'.

 

[maquiscat]

If thats what you believe then you should go open a thread on that topic as its not what's being discussed here.

In and of itself I'd agree with you but jcfranka brought up the basis of sex outside of marriage as a sin, and I've countered that argument with Abraham and Solomon as prime examples. Therefore it belongs in this thread. You picked up the string of the argument by answering my rebuttal to him.

 

[roguenuke]

They aren't, and I never said they were. I never said they were giving up any right by divorcing. I said they're basicaly spitting in the face of the movment. And they are.

Not when part of the fight for marriage also includes a right to divorce for many people. You are trying to impose what you believe marriage should be, a relationship that lasts for a long time or set period of time, onto others. That is your ideal of marriage, but it isn't what marriage actually is. Marriage is not actually set as a lifetime relationship for all people, even if most go into it hoping or even thinking it will be.

 

[blarg]

They're throwing away the thing they fought for, is how.

they thought for equality and the right to get married and according to you that includes the right to get divorced ending a marriage doesn't throw that away

 

[blarg]

All of them. See the entire archive of the Sex & Sexuality forum for the exhaustive list of all such arguments.


I don't know, which ones?

bull **** show me one from this site I dare you

 

[blarg]

Yeah, divorce is part of the greater right to marry, and when gays divorce while the rights movment is still fighting on, that's ironc.

maybe a little ironic but stills consentient with the fight for equality and rights

 

[Jerry]

Did you forget that in the biblical stories, Abraham also had female concubines and sired children with them? Did you also forget that Sarah was Abraham's half-sister (incest)? There was also Keturah- another wife.

I obviously did not forget these ans I just condemned those actions.

Abraham was "Yahweh's" poster boy, so clearly "Yahweh" condoned it.

Yes, God tolerates a fair degree of sin. That's no secret.

That was reflective of the patriarchal culture at the time. This is only one of the many examples of why it's so obvious that ordinary men (not some omniscient Deity) wrote the biblical texts and created their god(s) to suit themselves.

No one on this thread claims the bible was written by God.

Did you also forget this is the 21st century? Not The Ancient Near East bronze age?

My bad, I did forget. The storm slowed my internet speeds down to a stone-age pace and so I just assumed I was using the Phero's Wifi. I was like "WTF Ramses you can't install a few cell towers on your pyramids".