Keiv protests.

[Jack Hays]

Yeah I'm sure that it is "your area", btw I thought your area was the ME?!?

So if it is "your area" maybe you'd be able to tell us, who that man is and what he is speaking about.


But I'm sure it is also just Putin's propaganda, right.eace

EDIT: Unfortunately, the last option you mentioned is what it currently goes to, with leaders in the Eastern parts of Ukraine saying that they would not give in to Bandera's followers.


Fallen.

It's just Right Sector radical blather.eace

 

[Fallenangel]

It's just Right Sector radical blather.eace

Oh really, maybe you'd try to be more specific and actually answer what I asked you about "your area".
Who is that man, and what he is talking about? eace

Fallen.

 

[Jack Hays]

Sure eace

I have had a long career in international affairs, but the ME was never a focus.

 

[LaughAtTheWorld]

I have had a long career in international affairs, but the ME was never a focus.

Given your posting history I highly doubt that. Did you end your messages with the same eace emoticon also?

 

[LaughAtTheWorld]

Oh really, maybe you'd try to be more specific and actually answer what I asked you about "your area".
Who is that man, and what he is talking about? eace

Fallen.

Don't doubt him. He's a qualified expert in international relations. It's obviously just propaganda eace

 

[Jack Hays]

Oh really, maybe you'd try to be more specific and actually answer what I asked you about "your area".
Who is that man, and what he is talking about? eace

Fallen.

If memory serves, that's Dmitro Yarosh. Keep in mind that I retired in 2009.eace

 

[Jack Hays]

Given your posting history I highly doubt that. Did you end your messages with the same eace emoticon also?

I infer that you meant to be insulting but I'm pretty tolerant.eace

 

[LaughAtTheWorld]

I infer that you meant to be insulting but I'm pretty tolerant.eace

Tolerance eace

 

[polgara]

I thought the majority of the protesters although diverse are anti-Russian and pro-democracy. Was I having the wrong impression?

The Ukrainians are a proud but hot-headed people, who have had fist fights where everyone joins in...on their equivalent of our Senate floor! There were photos about a year ago, taken while they were settling their differences! Some were actually airborne! :mrgreen: And no, they do not like to be ruled by Russia!

Greetings, PSK. :2wave:

 

[LaughAtTheWorld]

The Ukrainians are a proud but hot-headed people, who have had fist fights where everyone joins in...on their equivalent of our Senate floor! There were photos about a year ago, taken while they were settling their differences! Some were actually airborne! :mrgreen: And no, they do not like to be ruled by Russia!

Greetings, PSK. :2wave:

Are you of Ukrainian extraction? I admit that it's not a topic I'm well versed in but you seem to possess more knowledge about it than the average layman.

 

[Fallenangel]

I thought the majority of the protesters although diverse are anti-Russian and pro-democracy. Was I having the wrong impression?

The majority of the protesters are indeed anti-Russian and they see Russia as one of the main "bad guys", but I doubt that the majority are indeed pro-western democracy/liberal values etc...what they are pro/anti are simpler things:
Anti-government/anything related to the current regime
Anti-corruption
Anti-poverty
Pro-better life

Moreover, unfortunately the situation is much more complex than it usually portrayed in the Western media.
The "opposition leaders" Klitschko, Yatsenyuk apparently have very little control over the opposition movement on the streets which is being coordinated and sometimes even trained by extreme right. Although, groups like Pravy Sektor and their leaders, do not represent the majority of the protesters, they are young, organised, armed and take the initiative in the attacks on the Berkut forces, which makes them the true leaders of the opposition on the ground.
I also like how the western media, often fails to mention things like Auto-Maidan, and more "peaceful" actions by the "peaceful protesters."

Lastly, in my opinion Ukraine stands on a verge of a true civil war. It has been already going on a low heat as most of the protesters are from Central and Western parts, and a lot of the Berkut fighters are from the East. But now, as some of the leaders of East vowed to not allow these neo-Nazis spread into their territories, this "revolution" has the potential to truly divide Ukraine.

Cheers,
Fallen.

 

[LaughAtTheWorld]

The majority of the protesters are indeed anti-Russian and they see Russia as one of the main "bad guys", but I doubt that the majority are indeed pro-western democracy/liberal values etc...what they are pro/anti are simpler things:
Anti-government/anything related to the current regime
Anti-corruption
Anti-poverty
Pro-better life

Moreover, unfortunately the situation is much more complex than it usually portrayed in the Western media.
The "opposition leaders" Klitschko, Yatsenyuk apparently have very little control over the opposition movement on the streets which is being coordinated and sometimes even trained by extreme right. Although, groups like Pravy Sektor and their leaders, do not represent the majority of the protesters, they are young, organised, armed and take the initiative in the attacks on the Berkut forces, which makes them the true leaders of the opposition on the ground.
I also like how the western media, often fails to mention things like Auto-Maidan, and more "peaceful" actions by the "peaceful protesters."

Lastly, in my opinion Ukraine stands on a verge of a true civil war. It has been already going on a low heat as most of the protesters are from Central and Western parts, and a lot of the Berkut fighters are from the East. But now, as some of the leaders of East vowed to not allow these neo-Nazis spread into their territories, this "revolution" has the potential to truly divide Ukraine.

Cheers,
Fallen.

I always knew that Ukraina suffered some serious internal divisions between the Russian-speaking east and the Ukrainian-speaking west but had no idea that it was this severe. I also thought that the Poles were also a sizable minority but apparently they aren't (because they were around WWII and I assumed that it was true to this present day)

 

[Fallenangel]

If memory serves, that's Dmitro Yarosh. Keep in mind that I retired in 2009.eace

Good Jack, now maybe you'd do some more research and update your outdated information regarding what he states and their role in the current "revolution", a lot of things happened since 2009. eace

Fallen.

 

[LaughAtTheWorld]

Good Jack, now maybe you'd do some more research and update your outdated information regarding what he states and their role in the current "revolution", a lot of things happened since 2009. eace

Fallen.

You forgot the add the eace at the end

 

[Fallenangel]

You forgot the add the eace at the end

Just for Jack.

eaceeaceeace

Fallen.

 

[Jack Hays]

Good Jack, now maybe you'd do some more research and update your outdated information regarding what he states and their role in the current "revolution", a lot of things happened since 2009. eace

Fallen.

if Ukrainian politics were at all normal, he'd be a fringe player. He and his gang have become more important as the country has descended into chaotic violence. A revolution may or may not be be in the offing, but a civil war seems like a real prospect. Putin is willing to fight to the last Ukrainian.eace

 

[Fallenangel]

If Ukrainian politics were at all normal, he'd be a fringe player. He and his gang have become more important as the country has descended into chaotic violence. A revolution may or may not be be in the offing, but a civil war seems like a real prospect.

True.

Putin is willing to fight to the last Ukrainian.eace

I don't like Putin and don't support most of his or his government ideas, but the rise of the far-right and the impotence of the Ukrainian leaders have nothing to do with him.

Fallen.

 

[polgara]

Are you of Ukrainian extraction? I admit that it's not a topic I'm well versed in but you seem to possess more knowledge about it than the average layman.

No, my ancestors were Czech/ Yugoslavian, but we know many Ukrainians. They are a hardy people, both men and women. Ukraine is the second largest country in area after the Russian Federation, so their climate is as diverse as ours in America, simply because of the size of Ukraine.

 

[loader]

U.S. threw at the mercy of Russia to Georgia in 2008. U.S. without a doubt, will leave at the mercy of the enemy Ukraine. Europe is weak and dependent on Russia. Them better losing Ukraine, than Russian gas and oil. This is a political reality. Ukraine has no hope, become a normal country. Ukraine again become a part of the Evil Empire, soon. Anyone who does not see that the Evil Empire reborn, blind and stupid. And we all will pay a lot for this blindness and stupidity. With the absorption of Ukraine by Russia, begin a new stage of the Cold War. And who knows, if we win this time.

 

[Jack Hays]

True.


I don't like Putin and don't support most of his or his government ideas, but the rise of the far-right and the impotence of the Ukrainian leaders have nothing to do with him.

Fallen.

I think it's premature to speak of the rise of the far right, but this situation would not have arisen if Putin had not been determined to block Ukraine's drift west and reincorporate it into his empire. Meanwhile, chaos reigns.eace


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/21/world/europe/ukraine.html

 

[Fallenangel]

I think it's premature to speak of the rise of the far right, but this situation would not have arisen if Putin had not been determined to block Ukraine's drift west and reincorporate it into his empire. Meanwhile, chaos reigns.eace


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/21/world/europe/ukraine.html

It is too late to talk of it's rise, as it already risen in the context of one (still small scale) "revolution".
...and we go back to "evil Empire, Putin, etc.." you need to listen less to George and make your own research about "your area". eace

Fallen.

 

[loader]

I don't like Putin and don't support most of his or his government ideas, but the rise of the far-right and the impotence of the Ukrainian leaders have nothing to do with him.
.

When the government destroys the legal opposition, is replaced by the street opposition. The street opposition, it is not a political party. there can be anything. There may be both right and left. Can be and ultra-left-fascists or Nazis. But it is unlikely there are more of 5-10%. And most likely, they have to go their homes. And ordinary people, citizens of the country, dying on the streets.

I am from Kiev. Lived there for 40 years. If I was a citizen of Ukraine, no doubt, I would have been on the barricades.

 

[Red_Dave]

The majority of the protesters are indeed anti-Russian and they see Russia as one of the main "bad guys", but I doubt that the majority are indeed pro-western democracy/liberal values etc...what they are pro/anti are simpler things:
Anti-government/anything related to the current regime
Anti-corruption
Anti-poverty
Pro-better life

Moreover, unfortunately the situation is much more complex than it usually portrayed in the Western media.
The "opposition leaders" Klitschko, Yatsenyuk apparently have very little control over the opposition movement on the streets which is being coordinated and sometimes even trained by extreme right. Although, groups like Pravy Sektor and their leaders, do not represent the majority of the protesters, they are young, organised, armed and take the initiative in the attacks on the Berkut forces, which makes them the true leaders of the opposition on the ground.
I also like how the western media, often fails to mention things like Auto-Maidan, and more "peaceful" actions by the "peaceful protesters."

Lastly, in my opinion Ukraine stands on a verge of a true civil war. It has been already going on a low heat as most of the protesters are from Central and Western parts, and a lot of the Berkut fighters are from the East. But now, as some of the leaders of East vowed to not allow these neo-Nazis spread into their territories, this "revolution" has the potential to truly divide Ukraine.

Cheers,
Fallen.

What does Neo-Nazi actually mean in the Ukrainian context? I would associate it with hatred of Jews and Communists traditionally and Arabs/immigrants in general in a modern Western European context but I'm not aware of there being many Jews/communists/minorities in Ukraine generally apart from the Crimeans and the whole Russian speaker vs Ukrainian speaker thing. Or is it simply an extension of the latter?

 

[LaughAtTheWorld]

What does Neo-Nazi actually mean in the Ukrainian context? I would associate it with hatred of Jews and Communists traditionally and Arabs/immigrants in general in a modern Western European context but I'm not aware of there being many Jews/communists/minorities in Ukraine generally apart from the Crimeans and the whole Russian speaker vs Ukrainian speaker thing. Or is to simply an extension of the latter?

From my impression, anti-Semitism, xenophobia, extreme nationalism, and authoritarianism. That's the main four characteristics of neo-Nazis that I've observed and probably holds true for the Ukrainian neo-Nazis from what I've heard.

 

[Jack Hays]

It is too late to talk of it's rise, as it already risen in the context of one (still small scale) "revolution".
...and we go back to "evil Empire, Putin, etc.." you need to listen less to George and make your own research about "your area". eace

Fallen.

And you need to be less of a Kremlin spokesman.