Keeping some perspective...[W 42]

[Chomsky]

I think that is wise of them to do so. I believe wisely they are waiting for the facts of this investigation to be revealed.
I noticed the metro police in Vegas have been quiet today also. No briefings so far today even after combing through the shooter's second home in Reno yesterday evening.

This was a very well planned out attack.
The idea he booked a room at a hotel that is directly across the fairgrounds where this Country Western Festival is an annual event that is sold out every year means he had to make his reservations in advance and did so for a room that gave him views of the entire strip unblocked.
The idea he chose a hotel, Mandalay Bay, which is completely a No Gun Zone and their policy even requires law enforcement who do carry arms to call ahead before entering makes one pause.
The idea he was able to bring in 23 firearms to a No Gun Zone hotel along with surveilance equipment and tripods causes one to pause.
The idea that he has no background in the military or police and yet was able with in seconds change out rounds of ammo so quickly, causes one to pause.
The idea that he set up surveilance in the hallway to alert him of individuals like security guards, like the one he shot and police and videotaped himself engaged in executing his plan causes one to pause.
The earlier reports that he obtained hunting licences in Alaska have been debunked, they were fishing licence. He wasn't a hunter.
I think those at the NRA know there is more to this story and it is wise for them at this time not to comment.

I wasn't aware he was in a no-gun zone.

Do you know if that applies to casinos, in general?

 

[Goshin]

Re: Keeping some perspective...

Not at all.

I sometimes enjoy legal technicalities and logic, so bump-stocks seem to be an interesting item.

Thing is: Machine guns are not illegal. They're taxed. So it would seem the worst that bump-stocks could be found, is a tax avoidance scheme. But then, I'm no lawyer.

Well, tmk it is a bit more than just a tax. There are, IIRC, additional background checks, strict storage requirements, and the possibility of spot-checks to see that the weapons are being kept in the manner required by law. I think most states also require the approval of the local sheriff (or maybe that's just my state, I'm not sure).

Then again I've never applied for a Class III (not really interested, or not enough to put up with the bother), so Turtle could probably answer more accurately.

 

[Chomsky]

Re: Keeping some perspective...

Well, tmk it is a bit more than just a tax. There are, IIRC, additional background checks, strict storage requirements, and the possibility of spot-checks to see that the weapons are being kept in the manner required by law. I think most states also require the approval of the local sheriff (or maybe that's just my state, I'm not sure).

Then again I've never applied for a Class III (not really interested, or not enough to put up with the bother), so Turtle could probably answer more accurately.

Yes, I'm vaguely aware.

But grandfathered automatics are taxed, not banned, and that's they key point I was trying to make.

However, I don't know the history here.

 

[Northern Light]

Re: Keeping some perspective...

The question on my mind is what makes these homicidal people tick and why there are such a greater frequency of them?

Is it the current political climate and divisions? Mental health issues? Just too many copycats?

I feel like, until we can really answer this question, all solutions will just be symptom relief. And unfortunately, my strong intuition is that the answers may be hard to face if partisanship, pride and denial are at work. It's one of those instances where things may have to get really bad for the wake up call to come.

 

[Northern Light]

I don't want to wade into the usual drawn out gun debates.

But I feel I must caution you that both examples you cited, resulted in significant regulation and changes for both objects of destruction (air-travel, fertilizer), including much higher levels of government intrusion in the form of oversight, surveillance, screening, record keeping, and citizen investigation.

Unless you believe guns should suffer the same fate, I would rethink your examples.

(which is not to say I necessarily disagree with your premise)

In theory, if the Second Amendment were abolished tomorrow, the government would have an impossible challenge of reclaiming all the guns in America. Think of the intrusions on freedoms that would require and the number of people who would resist. I honestly feel that people would go to civil war over any major infringement on the 2nd, more so than even the 1st.

You make a good point but if you really follow gun control to its natural conclusion, at the end of the day they're apples and oranges.

 

[Goshin]

Re: Keeping some perspective...

The question on my mind is what makes these homicidal people tick and why there are such a greater frequency of them?

Is it the current political climate and divisions? Mental health issues? Just too many copycats?

I feel like, until we can really answer this question, all solutions will just be symptom relief. And unfortunately, my strong intuition is that the answers may be hard to face if partisanship, pride and denial are at work. It's one of those instances where things may have to get really bad for the wake up call to come.

EXACTLY. This is a large part of the points I was trying to make.

 

[vesper]

I wasn't aware he was in a no-gun zone.

Do you know if that applies to casinos, in general?

This is the policy of Mandalay Bay.

You can read their policy at the link below. What they ban is listed in #5

https://www.mandalaybay.com/content...b-private-security-policies-as-of-10-2012.pdf

 

[TurtleDude]

No, but after 9/11 private planes were further restricted as to where they can fly.

Air travel is not the right example, in defense of the pro gun argument.

What's your opinion of bump-stocks? This is the first I've heard them.

waste of ammo created in response to the idiotic ban on full automatic weapons that have not been used in any crime of violence for decades: in 80 years the number of Americans murdered with legally owned autos was two-and one of those was by a Dayton Ohio cop

 

[Goshin]

I notice hardly anyone is talking about the 59 murders in Chicago in September, or the 84 murders there in June, or the 76 there in July.

 

[Slyfox696]

You have a point. But I think it is also fair to say that a great deal of these new regulations/etc are as much window-dressing as substance. The TSA is something of a joke, pulling 90yo American grannies out of line for more scrutiny while Omar Muhammad walks right through

While I don't think you meant it in this way, your statement here has racist overtones. Knowing nothing else about them, why would Omar deserve more scrutiny than granny?

I notice hardly anyone is talking about the 59 murders in Chicago in September, or the 84 murders there in June, or the 76 there in July.

You're obviously not paying attention to the correct media sources.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Keeping some perspective...

Yes, I'm vaguely aware.

But grandfathered automatics are taxed, not banned, and that's they key point I was trying to make.

However, I don't know the history here.

1) you have to apply to the ATF for the tax stamp with fingerprints, a form, 200 dollars and (until recently-now its just notification in most states) permission from the Chief Law enforcement officer-chief of police, county sheriff or coroner. In some counties the Sheriff would not agree to signing off on the request forcing people to create expensive trusts to own the weapons

2) Pay thousands of dollars because machine guns made after 5.18-86 are banned for private ownership, MGs that sold for 2000 in 85 sell for 20,000 or more now.

3) wait 9-14 months

4) once you get the gun, you are subject to ATF inspections of your home without a warrant

5) you cannot take the machine gun across state lines without ATF permission

6) you have to have the paperwork (tax stamp) with you at all times you have the gun

7) you have to sell the gun through a dealer.

 

[TurtleDude]

I notice hardly anyone is talking about the 59 murders in Chicago in September, or the 84 murders there in June, or the 76 there in July.

blacks killing blacks in Democrat run city with strict gun control doesn't help the jihad against the NRA

 

[vesper]

While I don't think you meant it in this way, your statement here has racist overtones. Knowing nothing else about them, why would Omar deserve more scrutiny than granny?

Funny I didn't take anything racist from his comments

 

[TurtleDude]

Funny I didn't take anything racist from his comments

I didn't either but the race card is a common tactic right now from some segments of the left

 

[vesper]

I didn't either but the race card is a common tactic right now from some segments of the left

Turtle I am outraged over the reaction on the left from late night comedians to the damn congressmen/women out there spewing horse**** when the damn facts are not even known about this individual. The damn horrific tragedy occurred on a property that is a NO GUN ZONE and this was a very well planned attack. The worst thing anyone could do is push something on emotion.

 

[TurtleDude]

Turtle I am outraged over the reaction on the left from late night comedians to the damn congressmen/women out there spewing horse**** when the damn facts are not even known about this individual. The damn horrific tragedy occurred on a property that is a NO GUN ZONE and this was a very well planned attack. The worst thing anyone could do is push something on emotion.

I agree but listen to what I have to say. I don't think its dishonest for me to state that I am probably the most skilled shooter on this board having held a national record in speed shooting and having shot what are now Grandmaster level IPSC scores in the past and having earned NRA distinguished expert in small bore rifle, air rifle, International Shotgun as well as the US Marshal's Service Distinguished Expert rating on their firearms qualification course. and guess what? 300 people like me, armed with the best pistols available and in that crowd couldn't have done a damn thing to stop that guy who was 32 floors up. had cover and concealment. He had cameras in the hallway to warn him of an attack to his rear. The only way an armed citizen could have stopped him would be someone with an expert's rating in rifle who had a counter-sniper rifle up and ready, was in a secure shooting position with a clear shot where the shooter was firing from. even if you had a SAKO 6.5 CM rifle mounted with a Leopold Mk IV sniper scope in your car, you could not have obtained it in time to stop the shooter. unlike many mass shootings-SandyHook, Aurora, Ft Hood and VT, this is not a case where handgun carrying victims could have taken out the shooter and lessened the carnage

 

[Goshin]

I agree but listen to what I have to say. I don't think its dishonest for me to state that I am probably the most skilled shooter on this board having held a national record in speed shooting and having shot what are now Grandmaster level IPSC scores in the past and having earned NRA distinguished expert in small bore rifle, air rifle, International Shotgun as well as the US Marshal's Service Distinguished Expert rating on their firearms qualification course. and guess what? 300 people like me, armed with the best pistols available and in that crowd couldn't have done a damn thing to stop that guy who was 32 floors up. had cover and concealment. He had cameras in the hallway to warn him of an attack to his rear. The only way an armed citizen could have stopped him would be someone with an expert's rating in rifle who had a counter-sniper rifle up and ready, was in a secure shooting position with a clear shot where the shooter was firing from. even if you had a SAKO 6.5 CM rifle mounted with a Leopold Mk IV sniper scope in your car, you could not have obtained it in time to stop the shooter. unlike many mass shootings-SandyHook, Aurora, Ft Hood and VT, this is not a case where handgun carrying victims could have taken out the shooter and lessened the carnage

True. There is no means of defense which is 100% effective in all situations.


Nor any act of humankind that will end inhumanity

 

[Lursa]

IMO it's pretty obvious that more and more attacks are using alternatives to guns. In Europe esp. where guns are much less available.

Knives, machetes, chemicals, bombs, and vehicles.

We've seen several vehicle attacks here now and the Marathon bombing. Alot of things need to be fixed and most are not related to guns.

 

[Lursa]

It annoys me when anti-gun people claim that people who carry guns for protection are being unrealistic in actually using them for self-protection. That they really dont keep us safe.

Of course no one can prevent everything. The predator, the attacker, has the advantage...they pick the time and the place.

If a gun was a magic tool keeping carriers safe, our police and soldiers would never be injured! But no one is safe from ambush. Or being stuck in a gun-free zone against someone armed.

However if we are not the first attacked, if there is an active shooter nearby but not on top of us, in all sorts of scenarios where a person is NOT the initial target ambushed...the gun carrier has a good chance of defending him/herself and others.

I feel that it's rather disgusting sometimes that people who dont care or choose not to confront these possibilities feel that they should have the right to tell me that I cannot be prepared to defend myself when possible. To restrict my chances with things like magazine capacity limits for example.

 

[TurtleDude]

True. There is no means of defense which is 100% effective in all situations.


Nor any act of humankind that will end inhumanity

I oppose most versions of "gun free zones" but claiming a "gun free zone" had anything to do with the carnage in Las Vegas is specious BS

 

[MrWonka]

uh we didn't ban private airplanes

First, private airplanes are actually very useful for something other than murdering people. Long range assault rifles.....no so much. That's basically what they're designed for.

But, more importantly...during President Obama's 8 years in office the only gun restrictions he advocated for were not bans on weapons. They were expanded background checks, and longer waiting periods to complete those background checks. At the time 90% of Americans polled supported those two measures, but the Republican party blocked them because the NRA has their nuts in a vice.

 

[Chomsky]

Re: Keeping some perspective...

1) you have to apply to the ATF for the tax stamp with fingerprints, a form, 200 dollars and (until recently-now its just notification in most states) permission from the Chief Law enforcement officer-chief of police, county sheriff or coroner. In some counties the Sheriff would not agree to signing off on the request forcing people to create expensive trusts to own the weapons

2) Pay thousands of dollars because machine guns made after 5.18-86 are banned for private ownership, MGs that sold for 2000 in 85 sell for 20,000 or more now.

3) wait 9-14 months

4) once you get the gun, you are subject to ATF inspections of your home without a warrant

5) you cannot take the machine gun across state lines without ATF permission

6) you have to have the paperwork (tax stamp) with you at all times you have the gun

7) you have to sell the gun through a dealer.

Whoa!

#4 seems to the point of being unconstitutional. If owning the gun is a constitutional right, how did they pull that one off?

 

[justabubba]

Re: Keeping some perspective...

Whoa!

#4 seems to the point of being unconstitutional. If owning the gun is a constitutional right, how did they pull that one off?

you consented to the warrantless search when you signed the permit requesting possession of the highly regulated armed weapon

 

[Chomsky]

Re: Keeping some perspective...

you consented to the warrantless search when you signed the permit requesting possession of the highly regulated armed weapon

Yeah, I figured as much.

But the thing is either covered by the 2nd, or it isn't? No? it seems they made two classes of guns, here. So thereby, two classes of rights. That don't sound right, too me.

 

[Lursa]

All of those weaponized items were first invented for a totally other purpose that the taking of life. The firearm’s single purpose is to kill. You can’t remove everything that may become a weapon. We need to address that there is no other use for a firearm!

Are you serious? Of course there are various purposes.

Self-defense. And it doesnt necessarily lead to killing. It can be preventative.

Hunting and food.

An immediate tool to put down suffering livestock on a farm, ranch, or on the trail..killing? OK, mercy killing

Recreation. I compete with my firearms. It's a great community of people, families, usually camping out at events, promoting community and healthy competition. And I win $.

You have an extremely limited view here.

Should we make motorcycles illegal? They really serve no purpose that cant be served by other vehicles and are pretty darn dangerous.